MN - George Floyd, 46, died in police custody, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020 #12 - Chauvin Trial Day 9

[MadMcGoo]

I think that GF was actively resisting while he was in the squad car based on my own impressions and the testimony of Jody Stiger, the use of force expert from LA. I think that any active resistance ceased very shortly after he was on the ground outside the car, but I'll have to go back and look again and re-listen to the expert testimony.

I think that many opportunities to deescalate the situation were missed throughout the whole police encounter. But that's just my opinion, and I'm not a LEO, and wasn't there that day.

I agree with this. It’s a little difficult to say when the resistance ceased and his movements became more about physically trying to breathe.

One thing I respectfully disagree with is that he was no longer a threat after being handcuffed.

I’m anxious to see what the defense does with this witness. There are only a few things I can think of that they could argue. None of them strong arguments against the Dr’s testimony.

 

[MsBetsy]

I think that GF was actively resisting while he was in the squad car based on my own impressions and the testimony of Jody Stiger, the use of force expert from LA. I think that any active resistance ceased very shortly after he was on the ground outside the car, but I'll have to go back and look again and re-listen to the expert testimony.

I think that many opportunities to deescalate the situation were missed throughout the whole police encounter. But that's just my opinion, and I'm not a LEO, and wasn't there that day.

Well, I'm going by what it says in the police manual, which is that active resistance does 'not' include resisting getting into the squad car, stiffening the body or falling down to resist. He was not trying to throw punches at them or running away. That would have been hard to do once he was in handcuffs. Imo

 

[Chelly]

@cathyrusson
·
55m
#DerekChauvinTrial - IMPORTANT TESTIMONY FOR THE STATE: DR. Tobin says the drug fentanyl wasn't responsible for #GerogeFloyd depressed respiration. Deprived of breathing for 9 mins 50 secs is the cause of his carbon dioxide level.

 

[Ruthbullock]

And he also tells us of the hypoxic/anoxic/myoclonic seizure (which happens automously due to fatal brains 02 levels/drastically low brain levels this happens) he had at 20:24:22 where GF's legs jumps up.

I had thought previously that Lane had lifted his legs. I had not realized until just now that they "jumped up/stiffened" and Lane actually pushed them back down!

View attachment 291895

That’s not the only times that happens though, there is another medical time it happens and that is due to relaxation- which may or may not have kicked in at that point if additional substances were involved. I’m no medical expert, and not saying the expert is wrong, but he has omitted other times when it happens in order to imply something else happened - which I personally dislike in a witness. Need to go back now and rewatch the footage again.

 

[Chelly]

@cathyrusson
·
50m


#DerekChauvinTrial - GRAPHIC: Tobin says he works in ICU & 40% of patients die so he knows what a person looks like at the moment they die. State plays this clip as Tobin narrates #GeorgeFloyd death. "One second he's alive and one second he's no longer.

 

[ElizaKate]

Hi all. Late finishing work today so late joining but trying to catch up on x2 speed. I'm only half way through but wow this witness is amazing. Clear lay person's explanations. Not being paid, just doing his bit for society. Hard to believe he's never testified in court before because he's brilliant. He's a lecturer I guess, so he's just been told to answer the questions to the jury as if your speaking to an audience in a lecture theatre. Very likeable indeed.

 

[Chelly]

@cathyrusson
·
48m
#DerekChauvinTrial - Lunch recess until 1:30 CT/2:30 ET.

38m
#DerekChauvinTrial - Reporters in courtroom consistently comment that the Cardiac Care Nurse (PJ89) juror, now seated in #2 seat, takes a lot of notes, furrows her brow often, nods her head often. She was especially animated during Dr. Tobin's testimony

Cathy Russon Retweeted
Law&Crime Network
@LawCrimeNetwork
·
30m
Pulmonologist Dr. Martin Tobin provided testimony in the murder trial of former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin on Thursday that appeared to augur well for the prosecution.

 

[Sleuther12345]

Hi I'm in the UK so not sure of the sentences in the US. If DC gets sentenced to 2nd degree murder what sort of sentence would he get.

I have to admit (and please don't all hate me) I was thinking that DC's life is literally over whether he is charged guilty or not guilty and was thinking it was a shame because I was giving him the benefit of the doubt and thinking he didn't mean it. But looking at the footage really makes me think it was deliberate. My heart goes out to George Floyd's family and to him he seemed such a poor soul.

 

[angelainwi]

Hi all. Late finishing work today so late joining but trying to catch up on x2 speed. I'm only half way through but wow this witness is amazing. Clear lay person's explanations. Not being paid, just doing his bit for society. Hard to believe he's never testified in court before because he's brilliant. He's a lecturer I guess, so he's just been told to answer the questions to the jury as if your speaking to an audience in a lecture theatre. Very likeable indeed.

He has testified in medical malpractice cases both for the prosecution and the defense. He has just never testified as part of a criminal case

 

[CrimeAway]

And he also tells us of the hypoxic/anoxic/myoclonic seizure (which happens automously due to fatal brains 02 levels/drastically low brain levels this happens) he had at 20:24:22 where GF's legs jumps up.

I had thought previously that Lane had lifted his legs. I had not realized until just now that they "jumped up/stiffened" and Lane actually pushed them back down!

View attachment 291895

It is fascinating to me, how Dr Tobin explained those movements GF made, and their clinical significance.

The discussion of myoclonic seizure and associated muscle movements reminded me of another video I had seen of someone undergoing (from explanations I have read), cerebral hypoxia caused by a cardiac arrest.
Those movements (in this other video from the UK) were termed "posturing" and this apparently another term for "tonic seizure" movements.

Tonic and Clonic Seizures

The video is a little OT, but I hope @Sillybilly will allow it, because I hope that learning about these signs, and their significance, can help someone else.

 

[GarAndTeed]

Those movements (in this other video from the UK) were termed "posturing" and this apparently another term for "tonic seizure" movements.

I think you may be referring to decerebrate posturing (may be wrong, though- it's been awhile since I worked in medicine.
<snip>
Decerebrate posture

Decerebrate posture is an abnormal body posture that involves the arms and legs being held straight out, the toes being pointed downward, and the head and neck being arched backward. The muscles are tightened and held rigidly. This type of posturing usually means there has been severe damage to the brain.<snip>
Decerebrate posture: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia

 

[delilah]

Tobin is a great witness for the state but we won’t know just how great until after Nelson has had a go at him....

 

[dixiegirl1035]

That was amazing testimony--so clear and so damning and so powerful. My thoughts are with Mr. Floyd's family today. Watching this must be heartbreaking. To see your loved one try and raise his right side, use his fingers to push against the tire to get some air. I can't even imagine. I am undone and I didn't know the man.

The photo of Chauvin's boot off the ground --inferring that his body weight is directly down on Mr. Floyd's neck ---OMG.

I keep hoping for justice for this man.

I wonder what the GF family thoughts are towards D*rnella? Just wanting to hug her and give her a medal or ??. I have not been following family statements at all. Does anyone here have any links as to their appreciation for her in this case.

If I was a family member, I would have her by our side... but in dreams as I'm sure she doesn't want this publicity. OMG she was a minor when she shot this world shattering video... and was staunch in that she wanted to give witness.

But oh oh oh my gosh her film is #1 here in this trial.

Sends chills that without D*rnella, this would not be where it is MOO

MOO

 

[MsBetsy]

@cathyrusson
·
48m
#DerekChauvinTrial - Lunch recess until 1:30 CT/2:30 ET.

38m
#DerekChauvinTrial - Reporters in courtroom consistently comment that the Cardiac Care Nurse (PJ89) juror, now seated in #2 seat, takes a lot of notes, furrows her brow often, nods her head often. She was especially animated during Dr. Tobin's testimony

Cathy Russon Retweeted
Law&Crime Network
@LawCrimeNetwork
·
30m
Pulmonologist Dr. Martin Tobin provided testimony in the murder trial of former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin on Thursday that appeared to augur well for the prosecution.

I also heard that after the jury was told they didn't 'have' to follow Dr. Tobin's instructions, most continued to do what they had been doing after Nelson objected.

 

[MsBetsy]

I think you may be referring to decerebrate posturing (may be wrong, though- it's been awhile since I worked in medicine.
<snip>
Decerebrate posture

Decerebrate posture is an abnormal body posture that involves the arms and legs being held straight out, the toes being pointed downward, and the head and neck being arched backward. The muscles are tightened and held rigidly. This type of posturing usually means there has been severe damage to the brain.<snip>
Decerebrate posture: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia

Would that describe how his body looked in the ambulance while they had him on the CPR machine? Sorry, I don't know the proper name for it.

 

[mickey2942]

@cathyrusson
·
48m
#DerekChauvinTrial - Lunch recess until 1:30 CT/2:30 ET.

38m
#DerekChauvinTrial - Reporters in courtroom consistently comment that the Cardiac Care Nurse (PJ89) juror, now seated in #2 seat, takes a lot of notes, furrows her brow often, nods her head often. She was especially animated during Dr. Tobin's testimony

Cathy Russon Retweeted
Law&Crime Network
@LawCrimeNetwork
·
30m
Pulmonologist Dr. Martin Tobin provided testimony in the murder trial of former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin on Thursday that appeared to augur well for the prosecution.

I appreciate the diligence of the juror, but hope that the focus of jury deliberations is on actual testimony, not her interpretation from her education or experience.

 

[GarAndTeed]

Would that describe how his body looked in the ambulance while they had him on the CPR machine? Sorry, I don't know the proper name for it.

Haven't seen that footage, but I'd say no, because the patient is still alive (with heartbeat) when I've seen it. Usually it was in the ER or ICU in a severely brain injured patient (if that helps).

 

[MsBetsy]

Haven't seen that footage, but I'd say no, because the patient is still alive (with heartbeat) when I've seen it. Usually it was in the ER or ICU in a severely brain injured patient (if that helps).

Ok, then it definitely wasn't that, since he was already dead. Thank you.

 

[sds71]

Deena Winter (@deenafaywinter) / Twitter

I have a few minutes before the Chauvin trial resumes, so a few observations from inside the courtroom today. Dr. Martin Tobin seemed to have the jury's full attention from start to finish today. When he talked, they listened. When the prosecution played a video, they watched.

And when he made a major point, they took notes. A few samples: When Tobin said Floyd died from a low level of oxygen, or asphyxia, nearly every juror was taking notes.

When he went on to explain the cause of Floyd's low oxygen level was shallow breathing, the one juror who hadn't taken notes, started taking notes

As Dr. Tobin explained how during the first five minutes Chauvin’s right knee was on Floyd’s arm and rammed into his left chest, most are still taking notes after he’s explained this.

As Tobin explained how the handcuffs were an extremely important factor, combined with the street, most were taking notes.

Then when Dr. Tobin explained how we breath, they were almost all watching the doctor, not taking notes, as he explained the pump handle and bucket handle.

An aside: during the sidebar over Nelson’s objection to a graphic, I’m surprised how many of the jurors immediately start chatting with one or others. The way three of the jurors immediately started chatting you wonder what they’re discussing, since they’re strangers.

When the doctor begins demonstrating and inviting the jurors to find their Adam’s apple, etc. most of them did it, then took notes. After a sidebar, during which I assume Nelson questioned this, the judge told jurors they don’t have to do anything the witness instructs.

When the doctor continued, most of the jurors continued to do it to themselves anyway. When the doctor said all of Chauvin’s body weight was directed on Floyd’s neck when his toe was off the ground, most jurors wrote this down.

When the doctor said you can’t speak without your brain being active, Nelson asks for a sidebar and several jurors take notes, many continue to examine the illustration still on the video screens.

As they played a video on the calculation of Floyd’s lung volume while he’s sitting on the sidewalk, all jurors I could see (all but one) watched the video, and as the doctor was explaining somewhat complicated medical stuff about the ELV, the jurors all look at him and listen.

As Tobin explains why it’s not dangerous to sleep face down, but it can be fatal to deal with everything Floyd was dealing with, ending with that “then it’s a whole different kettle of fish,” most jurors took note — literally.

After Tobin says it doesn’t matter if Chauvin’s right knee was on Floyd’s back, neck, arm or side, most jurors write this down. After he explains the 43% reduction in ELV and how Floyd was fighting against the street, one juror appears to be looking directly at Chauvin.

Virtually all of the jurors took notes after Tobin said Chauvin kept the knee on more than three minutes after the doctor believes Floyd had no oxygen left.

When Tobin says it’s true that “if you can speak, you can breathe” but it gives an “enormous false sense of security” because that doesn’t mean you’ll be breathing five seconds later, one juror seems to nod her head in agreement.

When Tobin says if you stop the flow of oxygen, you lose consciousness in 8 seconds, and after video is played showing Floyd’s legs moving backwards, & Tobin says, “You’re seeing here fatal injury to the brain from a lack of oxygen,” almost all the jurors take notes.

As Tobin explains how Floyd’s carbon dioxide level went up exactly as much as you’d expect after a 9:50-minute gap after he took his last breath, almost all jurors took notes.

And when they played (Exhibit 404) with Floyd’s eyes flickering, and then Tobin says “so one second he’s alive, and one second he is no longer,”and says at 20:20:53 “That’s the moment the life goes out of his body” most jurors were writing; Chauvin was looking down.

Tobin explained how Floyd was moving his hips & rocking to try to get air, and the knee restraint continued 3:27 minutes after he stopped breathing, & 2:44 minutes after officers found no pulse. Then they did a sidebar; most jurors wrote notes rather than chatting. Back to court!

 

[ElizaKate]

I thought the "8 seconds" statement was really potent. All it takes is 8 seconds for the brain to lose oxygen before loss of consciousness. 8 seconds!