MN - George Floyd, 46, died in police custody, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020 #4 - Chauvin Trial Day 1

[Bravo]

Have a good eve folks. I'll be here a bit tomorrow. Be safe. Be kind.

 

[Chelly]

@cathyrusson
·
9m


#DerekChauvinTrial - The media center lost wifi, all feeds coming out of there were lost. The judge adjourned court for the day stating he needed to give the public access and can't do in person due to covid, since feed is down, court is adjourned.

 

[margarita25]

My opinion so far on what was presented in the courtroom today, the prosecution has very effectively provided crystal clear and powerful witness testimony, images and video which show strong causal effect: one can not deny that one minute GF is very much alive, screaming for his momma, saying he’s in pain all over and can’t breathe, gasping for air with DC’s knee on his neck, and the next minute he’s dead. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see the relationship between the two events, JMO. I do believe we will see a guilty verdict here, based on the evidence that has been presented so far (“toxicology” or not).

 

[Blondiexoxo]

He might have had a heart condition or been under the influence BUT neither of those knelt on his neck until he died.

If Derek Chauvin had not done what he did then George Floyd wouldn’t have died that day. There is no question in that IMO.

 

[Sillybilly]

The fact that Chauvin was still kneeling on GF's neck when EMS arrived speaks volumes. Too me

Agreed Bravo. Four officers on scene with one handcuffed man who was not only under control but near death, and Chauvin appeared to just be given free rein to continue his non-chalant killing of the victim.

JMO

 

[Topppps]

I did 4 years of high school wrestling and 5 years in BJJ (I'm a purple belt) that is not a choke hold or blood choke by officer Chauvin in exhibit 17, look up a blood choke and it is not even remotely similar to the picture of officer Chauvin with knee on Mr. Floyd's head. I've never once seen someone in BJJ tap someone out by putting their knee on someone's head. I've never heard of anyone speak of the term blood choke. Much more specific about the type of choke, usually just call it by the name, rear naked choke, arm triangle, anaconda choke etc. Donald Williams obviously has a good wrestling background, he obviously has a MMA pedigree, but wrestling is a lot different than BJJ, and MMA, some of these guys that fight in the UFC don't know hardly about chokes and BJJ, there is no choking in wrestling. MMA has boxing, kickboxing and some of these don't even use BJJ.

 

[Tom_Servo]

The initial witness made a good point of being alarmed at what she saw. The cross did little to hurt her testimony.

This poor second girl was a mess. I feel sorry for her and her testimony supported the dispatcher in thinking something wasn't right. Cross on her established a crowd of people gathered and become hostile. Not sure how that helps Chauvin. Is the defense going to claim Chauvin was somehow scared or distracted or concerned enough about the crowd that he couldn't remove his knee? I might be completely wrong but if that's the case it seems like a weak argument.

This 3rd witness is the best so far as it relates to people on the scene or observing. He also has some training which supports his testimony even further. The stuff about Chauvin applying more pressure is subjective. Defense should have objected earlier to that. He's not a certified expert in pressure and weight distribution but the witness freely inferred and offered his opinion. I don't believe martial arts certifies him as an expert but he's been a very good witness. Defense has bungled this one, so far.

 

[Chelly]

`

I did 4 years of high school wrestling and 5 years in BJJ (I'm a purple belt) that is not a choke hold or blood choke by officer Chauvin in exhibit 17, look up a blood choke and it is not even remotely similar to the picture of officer Chauvin with knee on Mr. Floyd's head. I've never once seen someone in BJJ tap someone out by putting their knee on someone's head. Donald Williams obviously has a good wrestling background, he obviously has a MMA pedigree, but wrestling is a lot different than BJJ, and MMA, some of these guys that fight in the UFC don't know hardly about chokes and BJJ, there is no choking in wrestling. MMA has boxing, kickboxing and some of these don't even use BJJ.

Good material for Defense cross-examination tomorrow.

 

[GoJacks]

I did 4 years of high school wrestling and 5 years in BJJ (I'm a purple belt) that is not a choke hold or blood choke by officer Chauvin in exhibit 17, look up a blood choke and it is not even remotely similar to the picture of officer Chauvin with knee on Mr. Floyd's head. I've never once seen someone in BJJ tap someone out by putting their knee on someone's head. I've never heard of anyone speak of the term blood choke. Much more specific about the type of choke, usually just call it by the name, rear naked choke, arm triangle, anaconda choke etc. Donald Williams obviously has a good wrestling background, he obviously has a MMA pedigree, but wrestling is a lot different than BJJ, and MMA, some of these guys that fight in the UFC don't know hardly about chokes and BJJ, there is no choking in wrestling. MMA has boxing, kickboxing and some of these don't even use BJJ.

Hmm, Jon Jones (UFC/MMA 'super star') seems to think differently.

Jon Jones says 'blood choke' used on George Floyd was worse than torture

 

[Weki]

I hope Williams was not being overconfident and actually has the background to back up these observations. I was kinda skeptical when he said he’s an “entrepreneur.” That word is so overused. It’s so vague. Then it was brought up that he has several business but not what kind of businesses. Maybe he didn’t want to name names for security reasons but your name is out there so...?

He also said he worked security for the last decade so what businesses has he been running while doing that job? I dunno.

Cross exam should be interesting for sure! If Williams is portraying something that he’s not, Nelson can make a big ding in his credibility!

 

[JerseyGirl]

Williams told Frank that he's been trained on chokeholds. "Air choke is more like choking someone, they still have air to breathe," he said. "Then you also have a choke where it's a blood choke, where it specifically attacks the side of the neck and it specifically cuts off the circulation."

Williams said sometimes a person might not know they are in a blood choke until they're unconscious.

Williams went to Cup Foods the night of May 25, 2020. He told Frank that he didn't go into the store because "the energy was off." He said he heard voices and someone calling for their mother. He walked up to the scene where officers were detaining Floyd on the ground, and at that point he said there were about three people there.

He said he heard people "vocalizing their concerns to the officer" and Floyd "basically pleading for his life."

Frank asked Williams to describe Floyd's condition as time progressed.

"When I first arrived on the scene Mr. Floyd was vocalizing his sorry-ness and his pain," he said. As Chauvin's knee was on his neck longer, Williams said, "You seen his eyes slowly pale out."

He described seeing Floyd's breathing getting heavy, and seeing blood come from his nose eventually.

"He barely could move while he was trying to get air," Williams said.

He was the most vocal person at the scene for a while, Williams said, until a first responder arrived on scene. "Her expertise was like, 'Look he's fading away, you need to check his pulse.' She's asking him multiple times, I'm asking him multiple times, no one checked his pulse."

Williams said former officer Tou Thao said to him, "This is what drugs do to you."

Because of his experience with mixed martial arts, Williams told the prosecutor that he could observe what Chauvin was doing. The position of the knee on the neck, the movements of the knee, and the position of Floyd all gave him information, Williams said.

"I felt the officer on top was shimmying to actually get the final choke in while he was on top, to get the kill choke in," Williams said.

Defense attorney Eric Nelson objected to that statement, and the judge asked the jury to disregard it.

Chauvin trial livestream: Attorneys question first 3 witnesses | kare11.com

Judge Peter Cahill asked the jury to leave the room and spoke to Donald Williams II, telling him that his testimony is going beyond what the parties agreed to in pretrial hearings. He said comments like the one about Chauvin making the "kill" choke is too far.

Cahill asked Williams to stick to what he observed.

"What inference or what opinions you're drawing, you need to wait for Mr. Frank to ask you an opinion," Cahill said. "You've got to be careful not to volunteer things that have not been asked."

 

[Legally Bland]

Is the defense going to claim Chauvin was somehow scared or distracted or concerned enough about the crowd that he couldn't remove his knee? I might be completely wrong but if that's the case it seems like a weak argument.

RSBM. Don't know if you saw the defense opening but that is exactly what they're going to claim. I snipped that bit if you missed it.

 

[margarita25]

I did 4 years of high school wrestling and 5 years in BJJ (I'm a purple belt) that is not a choke hold or blood choke by officer Chauvin in exhibit 17, look up a blood choke and it is not even remotely similar to the picture of officer Chauvin with knee on Mr. Floyd's head. I've never once seen someone in BJJ tap someone out by putting their knee on someone's head. I've never heard of anyone speak of the term blood choke. Much more specific about the type of choke, usually just call it by the name, rear naked choke, arm triangle, anaconda choke etc. Donald Williams obviously has a good wrestling background, he obviously has a MMA pedigree, but wrestling is a lot different than BJJ, and MMA, some of these guys that fight in the UFC don't know hardly about chokes and BJJ, there is no choking in wrestling. MMA has boxing, kickboxing and some of these don't even use BJJ.

I hope Williams was not being overconfident and actually has the background to back up these observations. I was kinda skeptical when he said he’s an “entrepreneur.” That word is so overused. It’s so vague. Then it was brought up that he has several business but not what kind of businesses. Maybe he didn’t want to name names for security reasons but your name is out there so...?

He also said he worked security for the last decade so what businesses has he been running while doing that job? I dunno.

Cross exam should be interesting for sure! If Williams is portraying something that he’s not, Nelson can make a big ding in his credibility!

Rsbm

This 3rd witness is the best so far as it relates to people on the scene or observing. He also has some training which supports his testimony even further. The stuff about Chauvin applying more pressure is subjective. Defense should have objected earlier to that. He's not a certified expert in pressure and weight distribution but the witness freely inferred and offered his opinion. I don't believe martial arts certifies him as an expert but he's been a very good witness. Defense has bungled this one, so far.

Here’s where I am with the whole witness thing: Obviously witness credibility, etc. is an important element in any trial.

I personally found the witness to be credible, and think that MMA qualifies one for knowing about chokes and other maneuvers, and I do have a background in martial arts.

Re: witness credibility in this case, imo, no matter what the personal circumstances may be wrt a witness, what his/her background may be, or whether or not he/she is likeable, etc., I think the case is strong here with the images and audio presented that speak for themselves here - Williams” “interpretation” of the type of hold, imo, is not necessarily essential to telling the story and showing causal effect because there is video - the end result is the end result, regardless of if you want to call it a “blood choke“ or whatever choke, that’s “potato/poTAto” imo, and even if that “interpretive“ portion is struck from the record, a powerful and clear testimony still remains, one which I think did invoke emotion in some.

I do think the “shimmy” part was effective: again, there, call it what you want to call it, I think the point was demonstrated that there were exaggerated incremental movements of further digging of his knee into GF’s neck, no matter what you want to call it.

In other words, witness credibility isn’t likely to make or break this case, imo, as it may in other cases - the main point here is “knee to the neck”, I think, no matter what you want to call it.

It’s kind of like “motive”- one doesn’t have to (always) prove or even know the motive necessarily to get a conviction because regardless of the motive, the end result is the same, and sometimes we don’t always know the answer to “why”..


(“motive necessary to convict?
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Motive is not always necessary to prove a crime, as other evidence may be sufficient. Further, even when there is reasonable motive for why a person would have committed a crime, a motive alone is not sufficient, absent some other evidence as to why a particular defendant is guilty.
www.law.cornell.edu › Wex
Motive | Wex | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute“)

—

* Anyway, kind of rambling here, feels good to shake some rust off. While there have certainly been notable and consequential criminal trials over the years, this reminds me of watching the OJ trial...

 

[Topppps]

Hmm, Jon Jones (UFC/MMA 'super star') seems to think differently.

Jon Jones says 'blood choke' used on George Floyd was worse than torture

“That officer applied just enough pressure to keep him alive for almost six minutes in that chokehold. There needs to be a nationwide policy change. When a man is in handcuffs and is screaming that he cannot breathe. Get the off his chest and/or neck. If you can't hold a man who is in handcuffs down by his feet you’re a p***y and probably shouldn’t be wearing that badge," Jon Jones said to TMZ


Jones said that which is alot different than saying officer Chauvin used an MMA choke or blood choke.

 

[Tom_Servo]

RSBM. Don't know if you saw the defense opening but that is exactly what they're going to claim. I snipped that bit if you missed it.

Thank you. Yes I missed it. It's a gargantuan stretch to claim he was himself distressed when he's casually choking out Floyd with his hand in his pocket.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

Thank you. Yes I missed it. It's a gargantuan stretch to claim he was himself distressed when he's casually choking out Floyd with his hand in his pocket.

DC's hand wasn't in his pocket. If you look close he is wearing black gloves and his hand is on his upper thigh.
(not that it makes a difference)

 

[Tom_Servo]

I hope Williams was not being overconfident and actually has the background to back up these observations. I was kinda skeptical when he said he’s an “entrepreneur.” That word is so overused. It’s so vague. Then it was brought up that he has several business but not what kind of businesses. Maybe he didn’t want to name names for security reasons but your name is out there so...?

He also said he worked security for the last decade so what businesses has he been running while doing that job? I dunno.

Cross exam should be interesting for sure! If Williams is portraying something that he’s not, Nelson can make a big ding in his credibility!

Williams was way way out of his scope. There's two kind of witnesses, a fact witness and an expert witness. Williams is a fact witness acting like an expert witness. The defense did not do a good job objecting to the distinction nor did the judge who should have kiboshed his subjective opinion immediately. He's a great witness regardless and the prosecution got one over with him.

 

[Tom_Servo]

DC's hand wasn't in his pocket. If you look close he is wearing black gloves and his hand is on his upper thigh.
(not that it makes a difference)

Might actually look worse, was he posing? Hahaha

 

[casesensitive]

RSBM. Don't know if you saw the defense opening but that is exactly what they're going to claim. I snipped that bit if you missed it.

I watched the trial live on CNN, and they cut to retired Police Chief of Minneapolis (correct me if I am wrong about the city) who commented on this defense tactic that Chauvin was distracted by an angry crowd. He said that any sign of an angry crowd would prompt police to get the perp in the squad car and get away as quickly as possible.

 

[Legally Bland]

“That officer applied just enough pressure to keep him alive for almost six minutes in that chokehold. There needs to be a nationwide policy change. When a man is in handcuffs and is screaming that he cannot breathe. Get the **** off his chest and/or neck. If you can't hold a man who is in handcuffs down by his feet you’re a p***y and probably shouldn’t be wearing that badge," Jon Jones said to TMZ


Jones said that which is alot different than saying officer Chauvin used an MMA choke or blood choke.

I don't think they're claiming it was an MMA choke, rather they're using their knowledge of chokes to describe what they're seeing. I googled DW and you can see him in a fight tapping out from a choke hold (I found it uncomfortable viewing). He has personal experiences of this, plus training. I think his testimony will hold up.