GUILTY NC - Keith Scott, 43, killed by LEO, Charlotte, 20 Sept 2016 #2

[katydid23]

Look how much this case has changed since the initial reports. Now we are parsing words and arguing about whether the GUNMAN was able to process the 14 commands to drop the weapon.

But back at the start, it was described as a doting father sitting in the car, waiting for his son, and reading a book, innocently.


The story has been totally filled in with the true facts, and still, many find fault with the officers. Even knowing he was a violent felon, with a stolen gun, getting high at his kids bus stop, refusing to drop the gun, people want to see the officer prosecuted? :no:

 

[Tawny]

Look how much this case has changed since the initial reports. Now we are parsing words and arguing about whether the GUNMAN was able to process the 14 commands to drop the weapon.

But back at the start, it was described as a doting father sitting in the car, waiting for his son, and reading a book, innocently.


The story has been totally filled in with the true facts, and still, many find fault with the officers. Even knowing he was a violent felon, with a stolen gun, getting high at his kids bus stop, refusing to drop the gun, people want to see the officer prosecuted? :no:

I want to see less people being shot by police officers. That's what i want to see. It feels almost epidemic right now. JMHO

 

[katydid23]

Sorry for the confusion, should have quoted. That was in reference to another situation, the el Cajon man.



They are supposed to be trained to properly handle that particular brand of stress.

Yes, they sure are. But stress is a funny thing. It can build up and can also come out of nowhere when in a high pressure situation. I think these officers did a great job under pressure. THey had a woman screaming at them, that her husband had no gun, even though they were looking at the man's gun. They had a non-compliant ex-con, staring them down, holding a cocked, loaded weapon. It was a very high pressure situation and they stayed calm and it ended tragically but justifiably so.

 

[drjones]

Look how much this case has changed since the initial reports. Now we are parsing words and arguing about whether the GUNMAN was able to process the 14 commands to drop the weapon.

But back at the start, it was described as a doting father sitting in the car, waiting for his son, and reading a book, innocently.


The story has been totally filled in with the true facts, and still, many find fault with the officers. Even knowing he was a violent felon, with a stolen gun, getting high at his kids bus stop, refusing to drop the gun, people want to see the officer prosecuted? :no:

This is what happens in all of these cases now and it completely undermines any legitimate points the BLM movement are trying to make.

It is happening again with the El Cajon situation and I dont see any end to it.

No matter what information or video comes out people have already made their minds up at the outset and nothing changes.

The level of intellectual dishonesty is frightening.

 

[CARIIS]

Sorry for the confusion, should have quoted. That was in reference to another situation, the el Cajon man.



They are supposed to be trained to properly handle that particular brand of stress.

That was what I was trying to say a few posts back. They are just cops - they need training - its not like they are "bad" people - .


IMO - they can be trained to deal with this better - all I am saying

 

[Tawny]

Yes, they sure are. But stress is a funny thing. It can build up and can also come out of nowhere when in a high pressure situation. I think these officers did a great job under pressure. THey had a woman screaming at them, that her husband had no gun, even though they were looking at the man's gun. They had a non-compliant ex-con, staring them down, holding a cocked, loaded weapon. It was a very high pressure situation and they stayed calm and it ended tragically but justifiably so.

BBM that said, do you think that may be a contributing factor in some of these shootings?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Their cops. They need to be educated on how to and NOT to deal with those suffering mental illiness.

You do not approach a schzophrnic, pointing big ugly black scary things, while being all out of control yourself. They are overloaded with sensory information as it is.


One can state they are risking their lives and all that. Lets take 4 cops. I understand they are only cops, but they can be trained in this arena.

THree of the others , take out their guns, aims. Only ONE person, very low voice, calm states only two thoughts. I am not here to harm you, you are scaring me, please place the gun on the ground.

That it is it. The person who is hearing voices in his head will say something off the wall. YOu do not engage in any of that. You simply restate. I am not here to harm you, you are scaring me, please place the gun on the ground.

Person will continue to respaond , you calmly say again I am not here to harm you, you are scaring me, please place the gun on the ground.

That is all you say - broken record over and over if needed, and do not change one word. Dont bark - the goal is to calm.

Have done it houndreds of times- myself, any of my staff, and any other pts, have never been harmed.


Three of your collegues have the guns aimed at guys forehead so your safe.

In addition , if it really is a gun, untrained cops are actually increasing risks of others getting shot , becasue they are completly overwhelming and agiating the poor individiual who is scared, confused, not understanding what it is happening.

You never deviate off your short consise direction I am not here to harm you, you are scaring me, please place the gun on the ground.

Comfort them, let them know they are scaring you - that is it - casue now the only concern is that they do not kill another person, that they do not get and the innocnent bystanders dont get hurt


I have been amazed in everyone of these, the number of shots these guys pop off, in public places, with innconent citizens all over the place. If they are trained they ought to be able, when needed to place ONE shot to end the situition.

I am sure there are good cops somewhere. THe headlines, personal exp, and videos seem IMO to appear that there are a lot less of them than previously thought - but they just need training.

I am sure, just cause of the paperwork, they would welcome being trained on how to deal with the disabled with murdering innocent scared people .

I have yet to see one instance, even when the cop made a error where ONE shot was fired. That would be me, I cant shoot, I would have to fire 47 times if I had a gun and was scared.

These folks are suppossed to be trained and good shots? Blanketing streets with bullets all over the place just does not seem all that skill setty to me.

Someone like me who has never seen a gun , who fires off 87 bullets somewhere in the direction of some danger might hit the danger.

They are suppossed to, I think, know how to shoot someone , in daylight, from 5.8 feet away without discharging a "hail" of gunfire to disable someone four feet away.

If they cant do that, then the retraining program in addition into to including how to address the mentally ill in a manner that does not result in deaths for anyone, add a course on how to shoot something without firing randomly in public places .

The only thing I have seen , in all these, transends "trigger happy" into what truthfully sounds like we are in Iraq and war right here in usa.

And hey it is not the street guys issue, they are cops, they are not trained in how to deescalate situtions (obviouly) - just teach them how to do it . Epxecting them to IMO "know" how to do so IMO is like expecting a dentist to do open heart surgery!

My point is they need training - they are cops. THey need to make taser first choice, some tasered most did not . This firing all over the streets of AMerica needs to be curbed IMO

Pop Pop Pop Pop Pop Pop Pop Pop Pop Pop Pop Pop to disable someone 4 feet away in clear skies is overkill

shoot em in the leg - they will fall

They need to be trained is all I am saying-

imo

No, they shouldn't. Our police officers get very little pay for the high risk jobs they do. They aren't required to be experts in mental illness nor should they be. They also shouldn't be surrogate fathers for so many who have no fathers in their lives. Yet many police officers help youth who don't have the moral guidance of their own fathers.

As PC Brown in Dallas said after 5 officers were executed and seven others injured, 'the communities ask way too much of their police officers." He is right. They are there to see that laws are enforced in the communities they serve. Actually according to the USSC ruling police officers do not have the duty to protect and serve. They are law enforcement agencies who are to arrest those who break laws and to gather evidence so that the suspect can be found guilty based on the evidence they gather for Prosecutors.

Even if they had known prior Scott had mental issues it doesn't make him less deadly and actually could make him more of a danger to the police officers and to the community. What are they supposed to do to anyone they have asked 14 times to put their weapon down and they continue to refuse knowing full well a firearm can be shot than less than one second. Just wait until he kills them? He sure wasn't listen to his wife either as she told him not to do IT. She knew he was a killer........he had boasted about that fact to her when he threatened to kill her.

Its foolish to me to put this responsibility on our police officers when it is not their duty to do so in the first place.

Some believe Lanza and Holmes were mentally ill............did that make them less dangerous or more dangerous? The answer is obvious. However with Mr. Scott his background history already shows him to be a very violent man. He had already served time in prison doing an extreme over shooting of a man he shot 10 times. So he certainly had the capability of being a very violent man and carrying it out because he had already done so and seem to be rather proud about it. There is no reason why he would come out with the safety off of his illegal firearm where it was ready to fire unless he intended on using it.

It amazes me at the unrealistic views people hold about cops shootings and how they should have done this or that as if they were there and know better. The only thing I can think of is they probably aren't legal gun owners and have never even gone target practicing trying to hit moving targets at the gun range. It seems they have no clue how hard it is to hit a target with a handgun that is moving especially the extremities which are smaller than the large torso area. Police are taught for good reason to always aim at the body mass because they are more likely to stop the threat that way. Hitting someone in the leg isn't going to do anything except tick them off. Then the wounded offender who has a loaded handgun in their hand would have most likely resulted a full blown shootout in an open area of the community where others could be hurt by the bullets who weren't hitting their target.

I do not believe Scott's TBI had anything to do with why he refused to comply even though told so over 14 times. He drove a car, he worked, he was a security guard of all things which makes me wonder how in the h*** did that happen with his violent criminal background history. Way before 2015 he was an a very abusive violent man not only to his wife, child but to others as well. He evidently believes when he shoots anyone his plan is to shoot them as many times as he can just like he did in 2005.

I disagree. Our officers are the best trained in the world. They interact with multiple millions of people every single year and 99% of the time it is without a hitch whatsoever. So the facts that we have over 800K doing millions of duties each year as they interact with citizens doesn't support they are ill trained. In fact they are attacked themselves at a rate of 50K every year per the FBI and they say they expect that figure to climb in 2016. What it shows is most all police officers show great restraint even though they are the ones who have to deal with the worst elements in our society on a daily basis and are assaulted more than any other profession on our soil.

 

[Ladylub]

Yeah. I post those about people not getting shot by LE when they have FIRED upon LE and it is labelled irrelevant. Whatever.

Each and every case is different. The scenes are different. The people involved are different. What they know about the person's history also plays a huge part. We can not compare cases unless everything was the same with the exception of the perp.

 

[human]

And a lot of people don't grasp how stressed the officers are when they are trying to disarm a felon whose brain may not be working well. Are they supposed to take a bullet because the suspect was too scared to drop the gun?

Police departments are addressing this and I have posted info on it in the past,

The fact that there is a possiblity that everyone is armed has changed everything. I don't blame LE for being hypervigilant. They are afraid and stressed. They want to leave the job alive.

Americans don't care, as far as I can tell. There should be more money so they have shorter and less shifts for the same pay. Time to come off of shifts and decompress using tried and true destressing techniques. Everyday having part of the shift be a positive inteaction with the public such as games with kids. Having an assignment where police get to know the community.

As long as America loves guns, the stress level and hypervigilance of LE is going to continue to increase, Police already suffer from earlier death due to their life style job

 

[human]

Each and every case is different. The scenes are different. The people involved are different. What they know about the person's history also plays a huge part. We can not compare cases unless everything was the same with the exception of the perp.

Yup. And that is why I posted my examples as a counterpoint.

 

[katydid23]

BBM that said, do you think that may be a contributing factor in some of these shootings?

Maybe in some. For example, the rookie cop that accidentally shot the man in the Brooklyn projects, as the cop was walking through the halls with his gun drawn, because the lights weren't working and he was afraid...

But the BLM movement is going to make things worse. There is so much hatred and vitriol being spewed at LE these days. And threats that the time 'has come to shoot back' and that kind of thing.

And when cases like this, where the man is a felon with a violent history and is armed and refusing to drop the weapon,and shot at a school bus stop-- and yet hundreds of protesters take over the highways and demand the black police chief be fired, as well as the mayor and entire city council. ....It makes no sense.

They instantly congregate in the city of a police shooting and often lay out a false narrative, hype it up, and begin weeks of mass civil unrest, in reaction to a FALSE story of the case. What do we do about that?

 

[katydid23]

I want to see less people being shot by police officers. That's what i want to see. It feels almost epidemic right now. JMHO

And I want to see less violence in the communities. And it is absolutely an epidemic. It is tied together. As long as so many young men are armed and dangerous, there are going to be men shot by the cops. If they are driving around doing armed robberies and gang shootings, they are going to be shot by cops. it is what it is.

It angers me when I see these kids marching and saying the biggest threat to their safety is the men in blue. because that comment be further from the truth. There were NINETY homicides in Chicago in August alone.

So lets see how many people the cops killed:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...ice-shooting-database-met-20160826-story.html

Every five days, on average, a Chicago police officer fired a gun at someone.

In 435 shootings over a recent six-year span, officers killed 92 people and wounded 170 others.


SO IN SIX YEARS, COPS KILLED 92 PEOPLE.

IN ONE MONTH, GANGS KILLED 90 PEOPLE.


Of those 92 people killed by the cops, how many were armed shoot outs?

 

[CARIIS]

This is not a job that requires much. One needs a GED and/or complete the 12th grade.

requirement high school diploma


[FONT=&quot]Bureau of Justice Statistics, the basic police academy program consists of 720 course hours.

About 6 months of training.

Other vocations with similiar training demands:

Bricklaying, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Medical coding, Dishwasher Repairman, Garbage Collection, Pool Cleaning , Managing a fast food entity, Sprinkler repair, Water Meter Reader .

[/FONT]http://www.vocationaltraininghq.com/vocational-training-programs-courses-list/

http://www.pennfoster.edu/programs-...d-maintenance/appliance-repair-career-diploma[FONT=&quot]


[/FONT]https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS702US702&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=how+long+is+training+to+be+police+officer&tbs=qdr:y

https://www.google.com/webhp?source...2&ie=UTF-8#q=minimum requirements to be a cop

https://www.nspf.org/content/certified-poolspa-operator-certification-program

http://trainingdone.com/mcdonalds-lms/

https://www.sce.com/wps/wcm/connect...ading+Personnel+-+V4.1-022013.pdf?MOD=AJPERES

http://www.irrigatortech.com/

More training is needed.

 

[katydid23]

This is not a job that requires much. One needs a GED and/or complete the 12th grade.

requirement high school diploma


[FONT="]Bureau of Justice Statistics, the basic police academy program consists of 720 course hours.

About 6 months of training.

Other vocations with similiar training demands:

Bricklaying, [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#333333][FONT="]Medical coding, Dishwasher Repairman, Garbage Collection, Pool Cleaning , Managing a fast food entity, Sprinkler repair, Water Meter Reader .

[/FONT]http://www.vocationaltraininghq.com/vocational-training-programs-courses-list/

http://www.pennfoster.edu/programs-...d-maintenance/appliance-repair-career-diploma[FONT="]


[/FONT]https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS702US702&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=how+long+is+training+to+be+police+officer&tbs=qdr:y

https://www.google.com/webhp?source...2&ie=UTF-8#q=minimum requirements to be a cop

https://www.nspf.org/content/certified-poolspa-operator-certification-program

http://trainingdone.com/mcdonalds-lms/

https://www.sce.com/wps/wcm/connect...ading+Personnel+-+V4.1-022013.pdf?MOD=AJPERES

http://www.irrigatortech.com/

More training is needed.

I think you are misunderstanding the difference between a 'requirement' and what is expected to be hired. Very few departments hire anyone without a college degree these days. Some do take a few with just high school, but not many. It is very competitive to be accepted into the police academy. Just because the requirement says high school diploma, that does not mean that one will be hired for the job with just that.

Most urban cities have very vigorous training regimens in their academies. And there is ongoing training, that is mandatory. It is never ending training and updating and being retested in various things like shooting and working with mental health cases.

ETA-- I remember from personal knowledge, the LAPD academy had 65 recruits in 2013 class. And that was about 3% of the applicants. So only the top 3% were accepted. Given that level of competition, very few would have had ONLY a high school education. All of the recruits that I knew had 4 yr degrees at the very least. A few had Masters and one I now of had a law degree.

 

[Tawny]

Broken quotes.

 

[CARIIS]

Levity Break ding ding ding


Seeing blue lights in my rear view mirror IS drastically different than Publishers Clearing House knocking on my door !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[katydid23]

Not when you look at the big picture. People can break down individual cases and justify the shooting of black men - that's the difference.

I don't get what you mean...sorry.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I think the most scary part of the last two years of this with the endless cell phone video - and the fact that LE cant seem to grasp, that they are going to be held accountable for there killings they keep going on and on.

To me , it illustrated how deeply engrained, and supported by management the belief system that they really beleive they are above the law.

Where this is going so incrediably wrong - it that the "system" enforces this beleif. These people are not even being charged, much less convicted, much less serving any time for "murders". It is truly messed up.

I suppose I am being inpatient. Look how long it took for woman to vote, for homsexuality not to be deviant etc.

BUT, the scary thing really is pay attn to (IMO deserved - I lived it) is the 20-25 year olds total disdain for LE. I too. The real issue however, is when we look at the last 18 months , the younger generation is not tolerating their BS any longer.

We are heading for anarachy. We are. The nationial guard being called out all the time.

The thing that needs to happen tho is LE needs to "catch on" and change THEIR ways - the old blue shield is falling apart. If they want respect , then they need to display respect to the folks that are paying their salaries.

This has to stop. Mental illiness is not vanishing. The only solution IMO, is to teach these people how to manage the situtions they encounter.

WIth the passage of time, the society has had enough , and they will slowly start to be incarcarated for thier misuse of power.

The problrem is that needs to start to happen quicker - ya got a whole world of people who dispise them (look at all the videos - copblockers) we are gonna end up in a very serious / danageroues place

The only ones that can change this are management folks in LE. They will not tolerate what has been going on , you will be charged, fired, and proscuted.

When I first got here , it was a hoot (now I understand it better) when the mods would just come on and say:



[/SIZE]This is what, IMO ,cop management needs to do moo

It has nothing to do with LE training. If that was seriously a factor then there would be millions of incidents ending badly and that just isn't the case. No one interacts with millions of people more often than our police officers. Most are insignificant because thank goodness most citizens do comply and then go on their way.

Its not about training LE. It is all about having training sessions in every community across our nation BY LE to show everyone how easy it is to follow simple commands and how it brings the percentage way way way way down of anyone getting hurt, when they comply. That is what is lacking and needs to be taught. They even need to come to schools and teach it there. It is so simple. There is nothing hard about complying to commands by those in authority. We are a nation of laws and not ruled by the lawless citizens who refuses to comply to society's norms and rules of law. Its even happening in so many of our schools now. Teachers/staff/employees being murdered or raped or beaten unmercifully by someone who refused to adhere to society's norms. This total disrespect for any authority figure isn't only happening to our police officers. Its raising its ugly head on many levels now. It is that toxic teaching that is destroying so many lives.

Each child should be taught what to do if they are ever approached by a law enforcement officer and to always do what is in their best interest to make it safer for them and for the officer/s. That is not being taught and instead what is being instilled in many is the blind hatred against any and every police officer who are being taught to never comply to their demands even though it puts their lives at great risks.

You are right about one thing. Society as a whole is sick and tired of all the civil violent unrest being done to innocent people and innocent towns. Towns who are being terrorized just because an officer did the justifiable thing in order to protect himself and/or others from someone who was very dangerous. Many people are sick of the false narratives that always pop up with these high profile cases. Yes, I do see minds changing and more and more are voicing their opinions on how dissatisfied they are with what is happening in our country now.

Imo,yes, its coming and there will be law and order restored to our nation once again. We have always been a proud nation ruled by laws. That is what makes America a great country. We believe in law and order. I see comments about that very thing being discussed 24/7 on just about every social media site. The majority want their country back. Who can blame them? Its coming where normalcy once again will replace abnormal violent behavior that is now seen as acceptable by some.

Once again bad acts will return to being seen as bad acts done by bad people and good acts by good people will be seen as good instead of bad. We have truly lost our way but I do believe there will be a righting in this country from all the wrongs that have tried to destroy it for several years now and we will go back to being a society who respects our laws. I certainly do believe its coming and what I read from many others helps convince me its going to happen.

 

[human]

It starts early

http://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2016...just-a-police-problem-its-a-preschool-problem

were different and [the teacher] received this background information, severity rates skyrocketed," Gilliam says. "And the teachers ended up feeling that the behavioral problems were hopeless and that very little could be done to actually improve the situation."

This result is consistent with previous research on empathy, Gilliam says. "When people feel some kind of shared connection to folks, when they hear more about their misfortunes, they feel more empathic to them. But if they feel that they are different from each other ... it may actually cause them to perceive that person in a more negative light."

It's impossible to separate these findings from today's broader, cultural context — of disproportionately high suspension rates for black boys and young men throughout the school years, of America's school-to-prison pipeline, and, most immediately, of the drumbeat of stories about black men being killed by police.

If implicit bias can play a role on our preschool reading rugs and in our classrooms' cozy corners, it no doubt haunts every corner of our society.

Biases are natural, as Gilliam says, but they must also be reckoned with.

The good news, if there is such a thing from work such as this, is that Gilliam and his team were ethically obligated to follow up with every one of the 135 teachers who participated in the study, to come clean about the deception.

Gilliam even gave them an out, letting them withdraw their data — for many of them, the lasting proof of their bias.

 

[Tawny]

Ok so thousands isn't enough, we gotta wait for millions.