Norway Norway - Isdalen, WhtFem 503UFNOR, multiple aliases, multilingual, Nov'70

[Lorrie]

I understand what you saying, but it is not going to happen in the near future. I know very well how DNA-tests and databases works. Since the privacy laws in Europe is so strict and in Norway even stricter we would not get any information about who they have ruled out either. We dont have the same system as you in US about the ruled outs. In Norway we have about 44 unidentified persons and it is no offical databases with information about them, we dont have much information about the missing persons either. Some highprofiled cases does exists but thats it. Kripos only give information about them once in a while to media.

Our politicans thinks privacy is a human right and are very sceptical to use private databases to identify persons. A lot of europeans are sceptical to share their DNAs in genealogy databases and it has with their privacy to do. You lose control over what other people or the police can do with your private information. It has nothing with popularity to do it has with the security of personal information and as long as the information can be manipulated or misused most europeans are sceptical.

 

[teejap]

What about HEYLIGERS Anny, has she been ruled out?

• Missing since: November 30, 1966
• Missing from: Eindhoven, The Netherlands
• Gender: Female
• Age: 23
• Height: 160 cm
• Weight: Unknown
• Eye Color: Blue/grey
• Hair Color: Brown long
• Distinguishing Marks: Unknown
• Clothing: Red trousers, blue shirt
• Jewelry: Unknown
• Personal Items: Unknown
• Dentals: Unknown
• Fingerprints: Unknown
• DNA: Unknown

MF-0207

HEYLIGERS Anny Missing since: November 30, 1966Missing from: Eindhoven, The Netherlands Anny disappeared from her home in Eindhoven, The Netherlands on November 30, 1966. Race: UnknownGender: Femal…

missingdoe.com

Anny vs Isdal woman

<modsnip - rude>
the UID is almost certainly slavic

 

[Lorrie]

The isotopanalyze shows that she was growing up in South-East Germany near the border to France and then moved to northern France. So she was almost certain from Easthern-Europe.

Gåten i Isdalen

NRK følger nye spor i jakten på hvem den mystiske Isdalskvinnen var. Kvinnen ble funnet død i 1970, men ingen har enn så lenge klart å løse gåten.

www.nrk.no

Nå tror politiet at de vet hvor Isdalskvinnen kom fra

Nye spor peker mot to europeiske land.

www.bt.no

 

[Sjöberg]

The isotopanalyze shows that she was growing up in South-East Germany near the border to France and then moved to northern France. So she was almost certain from Easthern-Europe.

I must say, this is the first time I hear someone refer to Germany and France as Eastern Europe They are generally regarded as Western or Central for Germany and Western or Southern for France.
Linking one regions of Europe map.

I also think it is likely she had little contacts at her birth area. Being born in Germany in the 1930s and moving to France/Belgium as a child sounds like that might be connected to WW2, so there might be no relatives or childhood friends who were looking for her. I feel like tracking her travels might reveal more than trying to find the birthplace.

 

[Lorrie]

I have never said that Germany and France is part of Eastern Europe, but it is known that a lot of people from Eastern Europe came to South East Germany after the WW2. I know of several families who did that in that periode.
My point is that it is not unthinkable that she was from Eastern Europe... And since I guess you understand norwegian try to listen at this video with the latest about her:

 

[teejap]

I must say, this is the first time I hear someone refer to Germany and France as Eastern Europe They are generally regarded as Western or Central for Germany and Western or Southern for France.
Linking one regions of Europe map.

I also think it is likely she had little contacts at her birth area. Being born in Germany in the 1930s and moving to France/Belgium as a child sounds like that might be connected to WW2, so there might be no relatives or childhood friends who were looking for her. I feel like tracking her travels might reveal more than trying to find the birthplace.

<modsnip>
she's almost certainly slav

 

[Carovb5]

The isotopanalyze shows that she was growing up in South-East Germany near the border to France and then moved to northern France. So she was almost certain from Easthern-Europe.

Gåten i Isdalen

NRK følger nye spor i jakten på hvem den mystiske Isdalskvinnen var. Kvinnen ble funnet død i 1970, men ingen har enn så lenge klart å løse gåten.

www.nrk.no

Nå tror politiet at de vet hvor Isdalskvinnen kom fra

Nye spor peker mot to europeiske land.

www.bt.no

Germany & France are in Central or West Europe. Not Eastern Europe.

 

[Lorrie]

Germany & France are in Central or West Europe. Not Eastern Europe.

I know that, but it is always so nice that people help each other! I live in Europe and have familie all over here! I HAVE NEVER said France and Germany are in EASTERN EUROPE! I am old enough to have visited old Eastern Europe (East-Germany among others) several times before 1989 too so I know the difference!!!! ALL I meant to say that it was contact between South East Germany and Eastern Europe and people moved from Eastern Europe to South East Germany. I know people who did that in the 1960 and 1970s. I am sorry I was not clear enough in my wording!! I should have written that she was almost certain from Eastern Europe, but english is NOT my main language and sometimes things go too fast...

 

[Sor Juana]

The IW likely grew up near Nuremberg based on isotope analysis of her teeth, and if she was born between 1930 and 1940 or even earlier, as estimated, she would have been a teen during the WWII. After the war, many former Nazi officials and scientists were absorbed into Western intelligence agencies or fled via ratlines to other countries. If the IW had ties to such a network, either directly or through family, she may have been a person in hiding, possibly under a new identity, trying to escape her past. According to forensic reports and later investigations, her dental work was highly distinctive, she had 14 filled teeth and several gold crowns, which were considered unusual for Norway at the time. What really raised eyebrows was that some of the techniques used in her dental surgery were not typical of Scandinavian or even Western European practices. Experts suggested that the work might have been done in Central or Southern Europe, the Far East, or even South America.
Possible childhood in Germany, France or Benelux

 

[Richard]

Unidentified for 55 years...



"Isdalen Woman" Died in November 1970

 

[Sor Juana]

Has anyone seen the video titled
"Declassified Files Reveal the Isdal Woman’s True Identity"? Any thoughts?

 

[MelmothTheLost]

Has anyone seen the video titled
"Declassified Files Reveal the Isdal Woman’s True Identity"? Any thoughts?

Is this the video linked above or another one? If different, do you have a link, please?

 

[fred&edna]

Has anyone seen the video titled
"Declassified Files Reveal the Isdal Woman’s True Identity"? Any thoughts?

seems ai generated... tough to validate all the sources of info.

jmo

 

[MelmothTheLost]

seems ai generated... tough to validate all the sources of info.

jmo

If it's AI generated there's a good chance that some of those sources may be fictitious.

 

[fred&edna]

If it's AI generated there's a good chance that some of those sources may be fictitious.

exactly my thoughts, i was just trying not to say 'ai bs' lol

jmo

 

[Susikatze]

The IW likely grew up near Nuremberg based on isotope analysis of her teeth, and if she was born between 1930 and 1940 or even earlier, as estimated, she would have been a teen during the WWII. After the war, many former Nazi officials and scientists were absorbed into Western intelligence agencies or fled via ratlines to other countries. If the IW had ties to such a network, either directly or through family, she may have been a person in hiding, possibly under a new identity, trying to escape her past. According to forensic reports and later investigations, her dental work was highly distinctive, she had 14 filled teeth and several gold crowns, which were considered unusual for Norway at the time. What really raised eyebrows was that some of the techniques used in her dental surgery were not typical of Scandinavian or even Western European practices. Experts suggested that the work might have been done in Central or Southern Europe, the Far East, or even South America.
Possible childhood in Germany, France or Benelux

True but I dont believe she could have been a Nazi war criminal. Those trialed and convicted were fairly high profile cases and while many former Nazis escaped to Argentina or the like, I cannot see how a young girl would fit that profile. She was a teen or very young woman during wwii.

Isotopes are also mostly wrong or found in similar profiles in different regions of the world. I am an archeologist and isotopes can match hundreds of different signatures worldwide. Very unreliable.

I believe she was possibly indeed Belgian or Slowenian. Either indeed art trade or a high profile sexworker. Or, maybe, indeed some industrial espionage.

jmoo

 

[MelmothTheLost]

Norway is not in the EU.

No, Norway is not in the EU but it adheres to some EU requirements and institutions such as belonging to the single market, being part of Schengen and automatically adopting a lot of EU legislation. Other parts of its legislation and policy remain under its own control.

 

[worldwatcher]

True but I dont believe she could have been a Nazi war criminal. Those trialed and convicted were fairly high profile cases and while many former Nazis escaped to Argentina or the like, I cannot see how a young girl would fit that profile. She was a teen or very young woman during wwii.

Isotopes are also mostly wrong or found in similar profiles in different regions of the world. I am an archeologist and isotopes can match hundreds of different signatures worldwide. Very unreliable.

I believe she was possibly indeed Belgian or Slowenian. Either indeed art trade or a high profile sexworker. Or, maybe, indeed some industrial espionage.

jmoo

"In the hotels where the woman stayed, she was seen several times with different men. During these meetings, papers were exchanged and there was little communication. It is therefore possible that the woman was not a spy, but worked as a courier. After all, she traveled extensively. Hotel staff also reportedly heard the woman speaking German and an unspecified Eastern European language. A chambermaid who arrived unannounced to clean the woman's hotel room found her sitting on the bed. A man was sitting in an armchair. While the chambermaid changed the bed, the man and woman remained silent. All witnesses stated that the meetings looked like business meetings. The fact that the woman stayed in Christian hotels where alcohol was not served made it even less likely that she was a sex worker."

From Isdal-vrouw - Wikipedia
with included sources
7. Mystery Men - Death in Ice Valley - NRK Radio

Maybe, she was (idd) a courier, it sounds more credible to me
And *they didn't want her to leave, with those documents, or something important that she picked up??
Or she was betrayed, by (one of) her contacts?


"In case of murder, the killer would have known the area, unlike the woman. She would then have been forced to walk to Isdalen, according to the only police officer from that time who was still alive at the time of the reopened investigation."
1. The Isdal Woman - Death in Ice Valley - NRK Radio

*5 days before her body was found — Surprisingly, she was dressed lightly for the city rather than a hike, and was walking ahead of two men wearing coats who looked "southern... "
(Later developments —WP)
BBM

 

[snooptroop88]

"In the hotels where the woman stayed, she was seen several times with different men. During these meetings, papers were exchanged and there was little communication. It is therefore possible that the woman was not a spy, but worked as a courier. After all, she traveled extensively. Hotel staff also reportedly heard the woman speaking German and an unspecified Eastern European language. A chambermaid who arrived unannounced to clean the woman's hotel room found her sitting on the bed. A man was sitting in an armchair. While the chambermaid changed the bed, the man and woman remained silent. All witnesses stated that the meetings looked like business meetings. The fact that the woman stayed in Christian hotels where alcohol was not served made it even less likely that she was a sex worker."

From Isdal-vrouw - Wikipedia
with included sources
7. Mystery Men - Death in Ice Valley - NRK Radio

Maybe, she was (idd) a courier, it sounds more credible to me
And *they didn't want her to leave, with those documents, or something important that she picked up??
Or she was betrayed, by (one of) her contacts?


"In case of murder, the killer would have known the area, unlike the woman. She would then have been forced to walk to Isdalen, according to the only police officer from that time who was still alive at the time of the reopened investigation."
1. The Isdal Woman - Death in Ice Valley - NRK Radio

*5 days before her body was found — Surprisingly, she was dressed lightly for the city rather than a hike, and was walking ahead of two men wearing coats who looked "southern... "
(Later developments —WP)
BBM

Has anyone delved into this "religious hotel" aspect to see why exactly these hotels mentioned are being labeled as "religious"? I'm searching now, and I'm not seeing anything that leads me to believe Hotel Bristol/Bergen was ever designated as a "religious" hotel.

Hotel Hordaheimen, I'm not seeing any indication here, either, that this was a "religious" hotel.

Hotel Viking, not seeing any indication of "religious" hotel. KNA-Hotellet, Stavanger, no indication.

St Svithun Hotel, Stavanger, I see ties to a hospital currently but don't believe this was necessarily the situation at the time relevant to this case.

I'm not saying all of these hotels, in every case, "never" had a religious affiliation, but I'm not comfortable as of yet saying Isdal woman was staying only or even largely in "religious" hotels because I don't think that is accurate. Right now, it looks more like a minority at most in terms of any religious affiliation with the hotels. I've seen it in some sources with this "religious" hotel point, I think it's likely inaccurate, either in whole, or at the very least in part. Can someone give a link where this is supported, not just stated, that she stayed at "religious hotels"?

 

[snooptroop88]

Thinking she may have come from Romania, or may be descended from soneone Romanian. She has the dark hair, round face, full hips, somewhat squared jaw, dark eyes and Roman nose (arguably) that are traits which are very generally (obviously very generally) noted for Romanians that I see listed on sources. She's been described as "exotic," the sources I viewed on Romanian features also used this same word. Someone claims to have seen her in a picture riding a horse. Horses are especially revered in Romanian tradition and were of prime importance after the Soviet takeover in Romania, when they were put into use for agriculture and transportation. Also, there are feral/wild horses that roam in packs in Romania, some people there at various points try to domesticate these wild horses. For those posters who think she may have been active in sex work, brothels were legal in Romania until the communists shut them down in the late 40s and made prostitution a crime. Regardless of whether Isdal woman was into sex work before the 40s/50s or not, she may have had reasons for wanting to flee the regime, and this was very difficult indeed. She could have swum across the Danube, but she also could have enlisted the aid of some clandestine (and perhaps criminal) contact/organization. She may have then essentially have been extorted going forward by the same parties if she had any fear of an asylum request being rejected once she reached a Western country. If she wasn't already into sex work by the time she left, it may have become an inescapable reality after she left. If she were into sex work in Romania (provided there's any reality to this theory), they say she'd never been pregnant, so she might have faced forced sterilization from the government. And she had those barbiturates/sleeping pills. Barbiturates in this time frame went hand in hand with sex work, and both the drugs and sex work had a nexus with organized crime. I haven't done enough research to know if authorities determined when she had the gold crowns done for her dental work, but they were already being used in Romania by the 50s. I've also wondered if she might not have had that done in Italy. And then there's that garlic smell. It's a foundation of Romanian cooking, there's Mudjei, which is predominantly garlic paste/sauce with a very, very strong odor. I've read, too, that a large appetite for the spice cumin can trigger the body odor that's been mentioned, and cumin is also prominent in Romanian cooking.

What of her knowledge of Flemish & French? Romania had very close ties to France before WWII. In the late1800s, French was widely spoken by people of means and there were French newspapers in Bucharest, which was called "Little Paris." There was a French Institute in Bucharest. Romania and France were allies in WWI. Many young Romanians (usually wealthy) in the 1930s actually went to study in France, and Flemish is spoken in French Flanders. It's possible this woman was from a wealthy Romanian family hit particularly hard by the communist takeover.

I think eventually she became a liability (and possibly a thorn in the side) for the parties exploiting her and they got rid of her. But I don't think she was any spy. I think she was connected to and at the mercy of a lowlife criminal element that got a power rush from doing her in as they did. Suicide? JMO, possible but not nearly as likely. But there's no limit in terms of the possibilities when it comes to how this poor woman ended up in the horrifying situation that she did. Maybe she had somehow become aligned with the "bandits" still at large trying to overthrow the communists in Romania. By the early 1960s, many had gone into hiding, and their cause was looking increasingly hopeless.

I know they're saying we'll probably never know what happened to her, but I hold out hope that maybe we nonetheless will.