NY - $250m fraud against Former President Donald Trump, Trump Org., Eric, Donald Jr., Sept 2022, Trial 2 Oct 2023

[MyBelle]

The prosecution alleges that they got deals on loans, ( I’ve read costing banks 168 million), that they wouldn’t have got without the increased value. Apparently this trial may be followed by criminal charges. It will be interesting to see if the banks do anything legally after this trial. This may depend on the amount given for disgorgement- will there be anything left for the banks to claw back?

This case will be won on appeal, imo. Before the trial even started, the Judge decided fraud was committed.

If the banks felt they were defrauded by Trump's Company, they would have filed their own civil lawsuit years ago.

JMO

 

[musicaljoke]

This case will be won on appeal, imo. Before the trial even started, the Judge decided fraud was committed.

If the banks felt they were defrauded by Trump's Company, they would have filed their own civil lawsuit years ago.

JMO

The banks will no doubt file lawsuits. OTOH, the bank may be complicit in some of the transactions and might not want careful scrutiny of those records.

 

[MyBelle]

"Trump’s lawyers asserted that the banks had not been misled.
“They are not ill-gotten gains if the bank does not testify it would have done it differently,” Trump’s lawyer Christopher Kise said.

“I decided these were ill-gotten,” Engoron replied."

Trump Jr distances himself from documents at center of fraud trial: ‘I don’t recall’

Donald Trump’s eldest son testifies in New York civil trial, claiming repeatedly: ‘I don’t recall’

www.theguardian.com

BBM. And he decided before the trial even started! LOL

JMO

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/06/politics/donald-trump-judge-engoron/index.html#:~:text=A%20New%20York%20appeals%20court,up%20the%20former%20president%27s%20businesses.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I think I know which one, but, tbh, I only know one word of the lyrics. Exactly one word.

I'm none the wiser

 

[minusfour]

This case will be won on appeal, imo. Before the trial even started, the Judge decided fraud was committed.

If the banks felt they were defrauded by Trump's Company, they would have filed their own civil lawsuit years ago.

JMO

The judge found persistent fraud was committed, based on voluminous evidence. Persistent fraud can be accidental, so the matter of intent is being tested in the court currently. So for the evidence to support intent has been overwhelming. Trump’s lawyers don’t understand New York law. All this talk about appeals has no basis in fact- Trump is barefaced lying that there is anything amiss in this process. Whistling past a graveyard

 

[Vern]

This case will be won on appeal, imo. Before the trial even started, the Judge decided fraud was committed.

If the banks felt they were defrauded by Trump's Company, they would have filed their own civil lawsuit years ago.

JMO

Over inflated values for loan purposes = lower interest rates (defrauding of financial institutions); and
Under inflated values for tax purposes = underpayment of taxes owed (defrauding of the State of NY and her taxpayers).

The State has obviously felt that it was defrauded as were it's citizens whose services and infrastructure etc benefit from collected taxes. They count too as the Judge has already deemed to be "founded".

Here we sit.

JMO.

 

[mickey2942]

Definite "Bait and Switch". This seems to be how banks do business. I don't think that they are anxious to uncover this side of the house.

 

[ParkerParky]

The judge found persistent fraud was committed, based on voluminous evidence. Persistent fraud can be accidental, so the matter of intent is being tested in the court currently. So for the evidence to support intent has been overwhelming. Trump’s lawyers don’t understand New York law. All this talk about appeals has no basis in fact- Trump is barefaced lying that there is anything amiss in this process. Whistling past a graveyard

Thank you for this great explanation.

 

[MyBelle]

Over inflated values for loan purposes = lower interest rates (defrauding of financial institutions); and
Under inflated values for tax purposes = underpayment of taxes owed (defrauding of the State of NY and her taxpayers).

The State has obviously felt that it was defrauded as were it's citizens whose services and infrastructure etc benefit from collected taxes. They count too as the Judge has already deemed to be "founded".

Here we sit.

JMO.

BBM. Is there evidence Trump didn't pay back the loans? Banks decide what interest rate to charge for a loan based on the credit rating of Trump and his business.

Is there any evidence Trump didn't pay NY property taxes? I've not seen it.

New York, not Trump, determined the market value of his property. The taxes Trump paid on his NY property were determined by the State, not Trump.

JMO

https://www.tax.ny.gov/pdf/publications/orpts/taxworks.pdf

A property’s assessment is based on its market value. Market value is how much a property would sell for under normal conditions. Assessments are determined by the assessor, a local official who independently estimates the value of real property for a city, town, or village.The assessor can estimate the market value of property based on the sale prices of similar properties. A property can also be valued based on the cost of materials and labor required to replace it, minus depreciation. Commercial property may be valued on its potential to produce rental income for its owners.

Once the assessor estimates the value of a property, its total assessment should be calculated by multiplying the market value by the uniform percentage for the municipality. New York State law requires all property in a municipality to be assessed at the same uniform percentage of value (except in Nassau County and New York City where different types of property may be assessed at different percentages). That percentage can be five percent, ten percent, 50 percent, or any other percentage not exceeding 100 percent.

 

[acutename]

BBM. Is there evidence Trump didn't pay back the loans? Banks decide what interest rate to charge for a loan based on the credit rating of Trump and his business.

Is there any evidence Trump didn't pay NY property taxes? I've not seen it.

New York, not Trump, determined the market value of his property. The taxes Trump paid on his NY property were determined by the State, not Trump.

JMO

https://www.tax.ny.gov/pdf/publications/orpts/taxworks.pdf

A property’s assessment is based on its market value. Market value is how much a property would sell for under normal conditions. Assessments are determined by the assessor, a local official who independently estimates the value of real property for a city, town, or village.The assessor can estimate the market value of property based on the sale prices of similar properties. A property can also be valued based on the cost of materials and labor required to replace it, minus depreciation. Commercial property may be valued on its potential to produce rental income for its owners.

Once the assessor estimates the value of a property, its total assessment should be calculated by multiplying the market value by the uniform percentage for the municipality. New York State law requires all property in a municipality to be assessed at the same uniform percentage of value (except in Nassau County and New York City where different types of property may be assessed at different percentages). That percentage can be five percent, ten percent, 50 percent, or any other percentage not exceeding 100 percent.

supposedly he did not even state the true size (square feet) for the properties.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/03/business/trump-fraud-judge-mar-a-lago/index.html

the appraisals would be variable for properties that are unique because they cannot be based on neighborhood averages as with smaller common properties that have recent sales records.

 

[SouthAussie]

BBM. And he decided before the trial even started! LOL

JMO

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/06/politics/donald-trump-judge-engoron/index.html#:~:text=A%20New%20York%20appeals%20court,up%20the%20former%20president%27s%20businesses.

A Summary Judgement was requested prior to trial. Summary Judgements have been used in NY since 1921.
When there are clearly indisputable facts in evidence, a prosecutor can request a summary judgement.


Since New York established its summary judgment procedure in 1921, summary judgment has proven a valuable, practical tool for resolving cases that involve only questions of law. Summary judgment permits a party to show, by affidavit or other evidence, that there is no material issue of fact to be tried, and that judgment may be directed as a matter of law, thereby avoiding needless litigation cost and delay. Where appropriate, summary judgment is a great benefit both to the parties and to the overburdened New York State trial courts.

BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU STIP FOR

Summary judgment is a procedural device permitting a litigant to seek judgment without a trial in circumstances where all issues in a case can be decided by a judge as ...

fhnylaw.com

 

[minusfour]

The fraudulent acts were not sophisticated, and did include changing the square footage of his property’s. Also lying about planning permissions, rental occupancy’s, and the like. Trump’s accounting firm fired the company for providing misleading financial information. The company has already been found guilty.
This is not a dispute about banks. Love them or loathe them, it’s irrelevant. This is a company that has been found guilty of obtaining financial benefits from persistent fraud.
The remaining part of the trial is only to establish intent, and disgorgement.
No matter what Trump says outside the court, this has been a well run trial. He can appeal I suppose, but so far there seems to be no grounds to do so. His disgraceful behaviour attacking the judge’s staff, including twice breaching a gag order, speaks volumes about who and what he is.

I look very forward to him taking the stand. He threw Eric under the bus during his deposition, what will he say under oath?

I am not a fan of Chris Christie, but he was a prosecutor in NJ, and understands the law. He says it’s all over now. Trump cannot beat Biden from a criminal trial in Florida next March. He thinks Trump is facing serious jail time. It’s hard to imagine, but anything else is even harder to imagine.

 

[minusfour]

<modsnip - quoted post was political commentary irrelevant to this case. Response also removed>

Persistent fraud has been found to have occurred. White collar crimes committed by really rich people has been proven. I think these are really terrible crimes, even though I don’t like banks, and have no knowledge of whether or not the original interest may have been politically motivated. What I am sure is politically motivated is Mr Trump’s freedom in spite of breaching a gag order twice. He’s threatened witnesses and attacked and doxed court employees, yet he’s still not in jail.

We all need to wise up, and start giving this mess some critical attention.

OT slightly, but if I understand correctly, Mr Trumps defence In Colorado is that he, as the President, was not bound to be bound by the constitution. I mean, huh? Are we being punked?

 

[Niner]

Thursday, November 2nd:
*Bench Trial continues (Day 22) (@ 10am ET) – NY - New York vs. Donald J. Trump (76/now 77), Donald Trump, Jr. (45) & Eric Trump (38/now 39) & the Trump Organization, Inc. (Allen Weisselberg (75/now 76) & Jeffrey McConney) are being sued by Letitia James, the New York Attorney General, who is leading a civil investigation (which cannot result in criminal charges filed on 9/21/22) & has spent years looking at whether the company committed various acts of fraud over several decades. In the civil case, Ms. James has filed a lawsuit against Trump & two of his children accusing them of "astounding" fraud & deception.
New York is seeking $250 million in financial penalties & asked the court to ban Trump, Donald Trump Jr. & Eric Trump from serving as an officer or director in any corporation registered or licensed in New York. James also requested the court ban the former president & his business from acquiring real estate in New York or from applying for loans from any New York financial institution for five years. James's civil case accuses Trump of lying from 2011 to 2021 about asset values at the Trump Organization, as well as his own net worth, in order to obtain better terms from lenders & insurers.
Lawsuit against: Donald John Trump, Donald Trump, Jr, Eric Trump, Allen Weisselberg, Jeffrey McConney, The Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust, The Trump Organization, Inc., Trump Organization LLC, DJT Holdings LLC, DJT Holinds Managing Memer, Trump Endeavor 12 LLC, 401 North Wabash Venture LLC, Trump Old Post of Fice LLC, 40 Wall Street LLC & Seven Springs LLC.
All charges against Ivanka Trump were dismissed in June, 2023.
Bench Trial began on 10/2/23. (could last until 12/22/23 per Judge).
The lawsuit’s remaining 6 counts allege similar acts of fraud (that Trump inflated his assets on statements of financial condition that he submitted to banks & insurers for personal gain).
Judge Arthur F. Engoron presiding / NY State Attorney General Leticia James & senior enforcement counsel Kevin Wallace, Defense attorney Christopher Kise & Jesus Suarez & Alina Habba for Trump, Weisselberg & the rest of the defendants for Trump Org. / Clifford Robert of Robert & Robert PLLC for Donald, Jr. & Eric.
Trump fined $5,000 on 10/20/23 for violating his gag order & on 10/25/23 Trump fined $10,000 for violating his gag order 2nd time. Both paid on 10/30/23 per Alina Habba.
Case & court info & Summary Judgement from 9/21/22 thru 9/28/23 & Bench Trial Day 1-20 (10/2-10/31/23) reference post #848 here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...mp-org-and-executives-oct-2023.673964/page-43
11/1/23 Wednesday, Bench Trial Day 21: State witnesses: Former Trump Organization executive David Orowitz back on stand to finish testimony. Michiel McCarty, the state's financial analysis expert witness. Donald Trump Jr. He is due to return to the courtroom tomorrow morning to resume his direct examination.
Ivanka Trump's lawyer Bennet Moskowitz asked an appellate court to decide whether Engoron has jurisdiction to compel her testimony & whether the trial subpoenas issued by the New York attorney general were properly served.
For more info see post #856 here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...mp-org-and-executives-oct-2023.673964/page-43
Bench Trial continues on Thursday, 11/2/23.

 

[Inthedetails]

The fraudulent acts were not sophisticated, and did include changing the square footage of his property’s. Also lying about planning permissions, rental occupancy’s, and the like. Trump’s accounting firm fired the company for providing misleading financial information. The company has already been found guilty.
This is not a dispute about banks. Love them or loathe them, it’s irrelevant. This is a company that has been found guilty of obtaining financial benefits from persistent fraud.
The remaining part of the trial is only to establish intent, and disgorgement.
No matter what Trump says outside the court, this has been a well run trial. He can appeal I suppose, but so far there seems to be no grounds to do so. His disgraceful behaviour attacking the judge’s staff, including twice breaching a gag order, speaks volumes about who and what he is.

I look very forward to him taking the stand. He threw Eric under the bus during his deposition, what will he say under oath?

I am not a fan of Chris Christie, but he was a prosecutor in NJ, and understands the law. He sayit’s all over now. Trump cannot beat Biden from a criminal trial in Florida next March. He thinks Trump is facing serious jail time. It’s hard to imagine, but anything else is even harder to imagine.

Excellent post!

FRAUD (all caps) is not legal whether some bankers were okay with it or not.

jmo

 

[arielilane]

Donald Trump Jr., executive vice president of the Trump Organization and a son of former President Donald Trump, will continue giving testimony Thursday in the New York County Supreme Court.

Trump Jr. began testifying Wednesday in a civil trial accusing him, his brother and his father of knowingly committing fraud.

https://www.npr.org/2023/11/02/1210...-take-the-stand-in-new-york-civil-fraud-trial

November 2, 20235:00 AM ET

 

[arielilane]

I've not kept up with all of this, but have wondered where were the regulators... no audits? Anyway, here is a detailed article, possibly already posted, so for whomever has not read it and wants to. moo


Here’s a summary of the major legal cases against Trump, including key dates, an assessment of the gravity of the charges, and expectations about how they could turn out. This guide will be updated regularly as the cases proceed.

The Cases Against Trump: A Guide

Thirty-four felony convictions. Charges of fraud, election subversion, and obstruction. One place to keep track of the president-elect’s legal troubles.

www.theatlantic.com

NOVEMBER 1, 2023, 2:05 PM ET

 

[Niner]

I've not kept up with all of this, but have wondered where were the regulators... no audits? Anyway, here is a detailed article, possibly already posted, so for whomever has not read it and wants to. moo


Here’s a summary of the major legal cases against Trump, including key dates, an assessment of the gravity of the charges, and expectations about how they could turn out. This guide will be updated regularly as the cases proceed.

The Cases Against Trump: A Guide

Thirty-four felony convictions. Charges of fraud, election subversion, and obstruction. One place to keep track of the president-elect’s legal troubles.

www.theatlantic.com

NOVEMBER 1, 2023, 2:05 PM ET

Thanks! I will definitely be using this... so many cases... so many updates... LOL!

 

[tlcya]

BBM. And he decided before the trial even started! LOL

JMO

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/06/politics/donald-trump-judge-engoron/index.html#:~:text=A%20New%20York%20appeals%20court,up%20the%20former%20president%27s%20businesses.

Summary Judgment is a pretty common occurrence when the material facts aren't much in question. The only thing to decide at that point is the penalty.

 

[Inthedetails]

Summary Judgment is a pretty common occurrence when the material facts aren't much in question. The only thing to decide at that point is the penalty.

"It's political" sounds a lot like "lock her up," but with different words.

Just my observation.

jmo