NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest* #2

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  • #361
Do you really believe that is why he was choked to death?
I believe he was inadvertently choked to death after threatening passengers on a train.

The two incidents are separate. At the same time, in fairness to both the elderly woman with the broken face and the defense, Neely's propensity for real violence and real punches should not be diminished.
 
  • #362
I believe he was inadvertently choked to death after threatening passengers on a train.

The two incidents are separate. At the same time, in fairness to both the elderly woman with the broken face and the defense, Neely's propensity for real violence and real punches should not be diminished.
In my humble opinion, that's the job of his defense team to present, and perhaps the jury will consider it in mitigating factors. It feels extremely premature to be discussing it now, just as if he can get a fair trial is.
 
  • #363
In my humble opinion, that's the job of his defense team to present, and perhaps the jury will consider it in mitigating factors. It feels extremely premature to be discussing it now, just as if he can get a fair trial is.

From the “character witness” legal section regarding trials (mentioned earlier), the woman he was arrested for attacking cannot be mentioned during the trial unless it can be proven that Penny knew about it and accordingly believed Neely was dangerous and needed to be stopped. It could possibly be used as mitigation during sentencing if Penny is found guilty, but again, I’m not sure it’s relevant if Penny didn’t know about it. And yes, it does seem premature to be discussing it now, but for some unknown reason, Neely’s prior arrest for this woman’s attack keeps coming up on the thread as a reason for Penny’s jumping in with a chokehold.

JMO
 
  • #364
I believe he was inadvertently choked to death after threatening passengers on a train.

The two incidents are separate. At the same time, in fairness to both the elderly woman with the broken face and the defense, Neely's propensity for real violence and real punches should not be diminished.

I don’t think anyone is “diminishing” Neely’s propensity for violence or the elderly woman’s broken face. Both are facts and I’m sure we all feel awful for this poor woman. It never should have happened. But they are facts that Penny was very unlikely to have known about before he put Mr Neely in a chokehold. So they are not in any way relevant to Penny’s defense.

Without proof to the contrary, Penny very likely acted solely on the basis of what Mr Neely did on the train that day. Penny clearly felt that the immediate threat presented by Neely justified swift, decisive action. The prosecution will have to prove that what Neely said and did was not enough of a threat (although frightening) to justify the chokehold that killed him. That’s what the case is about, not Mr Neely’s past violent acts toward anyone else. Sticking to the facts as we know them does not “diminish” anything about his past or about the injuries his previous victim suffered.

JMO
 
  • #365
From the “character witness” legal section regarding trials (mentioned earlier), the woman he was arrested for attacking cannot be mentioned during the trial unless it can be proven that Penny knew about it and accordingly believed Neely was dangerous and needed to be stopped. It could possibly be used as mitigation during sentencing if Penny is found guilty, but again, I’m not sure it’s relevant if Penny didn’t know about it. And yes, it does seem premature to be discussing it now, but for some unknown reason, Neely’s prior arrest for this woman’s attack keeps coming up on the thread as a reason for Penny’s jumping in with a chokehold.

JMO

I am trying to imagine how it all looked. Probably the woman can not be used as character witness, but from her words, we can imagine that Neely could look, and be, menacing.

Now here comes the point of training. We all have different "danger" thresholds. It partially depends on biology, partially, on training, and very much, on the job we do.

I can imagine that Mr. Penny felt the danger earlier. It is very likely that he was right. It is very possible that you or me, @Lilibeth, would not have felt it, or would have responded exactly the way you mentioned earlier. It is also that Mr. Neely, with all his mental issues, presented different level of danger to different people; quite possible. But I can also imagine that Mr. Penny was not mistaken in that signal.

So the biggest question in my mind is, why did he go for the chokehold, and mostly, why did he need to choke Mr. Neely for so long? Basically, what was going on in his head? Was it some training fault, did something short-circuit in his head, or was it all fear?

ETA: or, scary to think, it might simply be easier to kill a homeless? Neely was 31 and not small, but, he was living on the street, didn't have advantage of going to a gym, ate God knows what, and when, no vitamins, smoked, maybe this, too, has to be factored in? Not the first time, either, the attacker thinks he is restraining a big and dangerous person, and IRL, the man is sicker than his age or looks would predict.
 
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  • #366
I am trying to imagine how it all looked. Probably the woman can not be used as character witness, but from her words, we can imagine that Neely could look, and be, menacing.

Now here comes the point of training. We all have different "danger" thresholds. It partially depends on biology, partially, on training, and very much, on the job we do.

I can imagine that Mr. Penny felt the danger earlier. It is very likely that he was right. It is very possible that you or me, @Lilibeth, would not have felt it, or would have responded exactly the way you mentioned earlier. It is also that Mr. Neely, with all his mental issues, presented different level of danger to different people; quite possible. But I can also imagine that Mr. Penny was not mistaken in that signal.

So the biggest question in my mind is, why did he go for the chokehold, and mostly, why did he need to choke Mr. Neely for so long? Basically, what was going on in his head? Was it some training fault, did something short-circuit in his head, or was it all fear?

ETA: or, scary to think, it might simply be easier to kill a homeless? Neely was 31 and not small, but, he was living on the street, didn't have advantage of going to a gym, ate God knows what, and when, no vitamins, smoked, maybe this, too, has to be factored in? Not the first time, either, the attacker thinks he is restraining a big and dangerous person, and IRL, the man is sicker than his age or looks would predict.

I always enjoy your thought-provoking posts @Charlot123.

Just to clarify, I’m sure most do realize that the older woman who was actually on the train that day and thanked Mr Penny is not the same as the woman Mr Neely hit in the face and injured severely a year or so ago that I referred to in my post. I would imagine the woman who was actually there on the train could testify as to what she observed Mr Neely say and do. But the woman who had been attacked earlier couldn’t be used or mentioned at trial as I understand the legalese.

The older woman on the train that day no doubt perceived Mr Neely as “menacing.” And as you point out, we all have different thresholds of perceiving “danger.” Without knowing more about Mr Neely’s actions other than throwing his jacket down (possibly as if to signal he was ready for a fight), it’s hard for me to say what my reaction would have been at that point. If he was looking at me directly and threatening me verbally (rather than a general threat), I would definitely be quite frightened and appreciate being “rescued” by someone restraining him, but certainly not killing him.

We don’t know yet what in particular signaled “Danger” to Mr Penny who is claiming self-defense and mentions defense of others, so it’s certainly possible his assessment was correct that Mr Neely needed to be restrained. I still question a claim of self-defense when he came from behind Mr Neely though. I hope there is video that makes all this clear.

I’m in total agreement with you about why the chokehold and why for so long. There were other ways to restrain Neely. What was going on in Penny’s head? I can think of any number of emotions he could have been feeling. From the video screenshots I’ve seen and descriptions I’ve read it appears he was very calm and focused. But we just don’t know. I would like to know his perception of Mr Neely’s size and strength, as you mentioned. Neely’s understandable struggling could have increased Penny’s determination to hold him tighter longer.

Although there is much we don’t know yet, we do know that Mr Neely ended up dead, the victim of homicide caused by neck compression. As such, he is the victim here.

JMO
 
  • #367
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  • #370
From the “character witness” legal section regarding trials (mentioned earlier), the woman he was arrested for attacking cannot be mentioned during the trial unless it can be proven that Penny knew about it and accordingly believed Neely was dangerous and needed to be stopped. It could possibly be used as mitigation during sentencing if Penny is found guilty, but again, I’m not sure it’s relevant if Penny didn’t know about it. And yes, it does seem premature to be discussing it now, but for some unknown reason, Neely’s prior arrest for this woman’s attack keeps coming up on the thread as a reason for Penny’s jumping in with a chokehold.

JMO
As far as I can tell, no one here has ever said Neely's violent past is the reason Penny attempted to restrain him that day.

Neely's past does come up though and the reason should be quite obvious, even if unfortunate, because that day Neely was the victim.

It's because he was well documented, complete with criminal arrest records and prior victims, to be a violent person.
This information came out after the fact, but it certainly lays a more solid foundation and corroboration to believe Penny and other witnesses when they say Neely was acting violent and threatening.

Believing Penny doesn't seem to be something some folks want to do, since they'd rather just assume he was a murderous vigilante type (see the countless MSM headlines that actually include those words). But the facts in this case don't appear to support that at all.

jmo
 
  • #371
>snipped
Believing Penny doesn't seem to be something some folks want to do, since they'd rather just assume he was a murderous vigilante type (see the countless MSM headlines that actually include those words). But the facts in this case don't appear to support that at all.

jmo
There is that one pesky fact that Penny held him in a chokehold until he was dead even after others warned him of the obvious signs of Neely’s impending death from the deadly force maneuver.
 
  • #372
I don't think Penny set out to purposely kill Neely. I believe given the different accounts and the foundation that we all are now privy to that Penny felt Neely was a threat. He made the mistake of putting Neely in a chokehold. I wonder in my mind if he thought he was "just subduing" him, but he made a fatal error and went too far. There were two other men who also thought that Neely was a threat and helped to "subdue" him. This case is tragic and horrible on so many levels for so many reasons.

There is a situation that just happened here in Utah. A man was "out in the fields" shooting at birds. Well, a bullet went across the street, through a fence, and struck a toddler. He was far enough away that noone even heard the gun shots. He was using a 22 caliber - which is considered a small caliber gun. He was shooting birds which seems harmless enough. But, a toddler was hurt and hospitalized! (Luckily the toddler will be fine!) Did that man set out that day to shoot a person? Absolutely not. Should he be considered a menace? I honestly don't think so.

My point is that in my very honest opinion, I do not feel that Penny is a cold-hearted killer. I think the actions he took went horribly wrong.
 
  • #373
.
I don't think Penny set out to purposely kill Neely. I believe given the different accounts and the foundation that we all are now privy to that Penny felt Neely was a threat. He made the mistake of putting Neely in a chokehold. I wonder in my mind if he thought he was "just subduing" him, but he made a fatal error and went too far. There were two other men who also thought that Neely was a threat and helped to "subdue" him. This case is tragic and horrible on so many levels for so many reasons.

There is a situation that just happened here in Utah. A man was "out in the fields" shooting at birds. Well, a bullet went across the street, through a fence, and struck a toddler. He was far enough away that noone even heard the gun shots. He was using a 22 caliber - which is considered a small caliber gun. He was shooting birds which seems harmless enough. But, a toddler was hurt and hospitalized! (Luckily the toddler will be fine!) Did that man set out that day to shoot a person? Absolutely not. Should he be considered a menace? I honestly don't think so.

My point is that in my very honest opinion, I do not feel that Penny is a cold-hearted killer. I think the actions he took went horribly wrong.

I was thinking today that most of better-known stories come from big megalopolises, cities that are straddled with homelessness but not uncaring and trying to help, given the prevailing mentality of such places. I don’t know if, and how, the situation would have been handled in a less caring place. I do not know what NYC mayor’s new laws about easing the hospitalization for mentally ill homeless will do, but at least, the mayor is not a passive person, he is trying and takes accountability for his actions. We don’t want mentally ill homeless to suffer or die because of rough handling by well-meaning people, but I also am against the phrase “the system has failed Mr. Neely”. Seriously, I feel that the system has never been there to start with.
 
  • #374
I don't think Penny set out to purposely kill Neely. I believe given the different accounts and the foundation that we all are now privy to that Penny felt Neely was a threat. He made the mistake of putting Neely in a chokehold. I wonder in my mind if he thought he was "just subduing" him, but he made a fatal error and went too far. There were two other men who also thought that Neely was a threat and helped to "subdue" him. This case is tragic and horrible on so many levels for so many reasons.

There is a situation that just happened here in Utah. A man was "out in the fields" shooting at birds. Well, a bullet went across the street, through a fence, and struck a toddler. He was far enough away that noone even heard the gun shots. He was using a 22 caliber - which is considered a small caliber gun. He was shooting birds which seems harmless enough. But, a toddler was hurt and hospitalized! (Luckily the toddler will be fine!) Did that man set out that day to shoot a person? Absolutely not. Should he be considered a menace? I honestly don't think so.

My point is that in my very honest opinion, I do not feel that Penny is a cold-hearted killer. I think the actions he took went horribly wrong.
You are entitled to your opinion and I appreciate your gentle wording of it.
I don't share it but thanks.
 
  • #375
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I was thinking today that most of better-known stories come from big megalopolises, cities that are straddled with homelessness but not uncaring and trying to help, given the prevailing mentality of such places. I don’t know if, and how, the situation would have been handled in a less caring place. I do not know what NYC mayor’s new laws about easing the hospitalization for mentally ill homeless will do, but at least, the mayor is not a passive person, he is trying and takes accountability for his actions. We don’t want mentally ill homeless to suffer or die because of rough handling by well-meaning people, but I also am against the phrase “the system has failed Mr. Neely”. Seriously, I feel that the system has never been there to start with.

I have studied homeless mentally ill since around 1985.

My first job in the field involved trying to find veterans with schizophrenia among the mentally ill homeless in Downtown LA. The research director had a grant to study their genes and their brains. First thing he said was that people suffering from schizophrenia and related unclassified psychoses are among the most likely to be homeless, constituting at least 3% of the downtown population, housed or unhoused. All of our research put the incidence of schizophrenia among the homeless in DTLA at 3-5%. As a result of this type of research, we've built suburban housing with mental health units for homeless veterans in California. Where I live, I can see improvement in services (as one of these centers is about half a mile from me - it's beautiful, houses almost entirely mentally ill veterans, including those with dementia). We recently opened a great outpatient treatment center (right next to the police station). We still lack enough beds for everyone, but we recognize that some schizophrenics absolutely won't accept living indoors. There's a local park where LE has decided to manage rather than evict - that too is near my house. So I see many improvements locally but I also fear for the fate of our big cities - where it's not going so well.

Anyway, the reasons so many are homeless and in big cities are two fold.

First, their families either cannot or will not take care of them. As their parents age, the parents can't follow them around and mediate their encounters with the world. Second, big cities provide anonymity and some services unavailable in smaller towns (where a jail cell may be the only place to hold a ranting, floridly psychotic person). One or both parents may be schizophrenic or with some symptoms, as well.

One of the symptoms of schizophrenia (esp. the "negative" schizophrenics) is avoidance of humans and a desire to walk.

Walking schizophrenics are everywhere, but rarely in small towns. Most small towns have 1-2 of this type per 10,000 population, but big cities have way more. Some small towns/families give bus tickets to the big cities. But in general these schizophrenics find their own way into larger areas, where homelessness outpaces resources AND where there are soup kitchens, showers, shelters, meal vouchers, homeless outreach workers, thrift shops, help with getting any source of disability payment, etc, etc. For whatever reason, they walk and walk. I've tracked some people as they wander 20-30 miles in a day or two.

So they end up in big urban centers. For example, Santa Monica has a free clinic (and has had since I started this work) and rapidly became a mecca for homeless from all over the nation (and sometimes, the world). DTLA has similar services. This is the second factor (the pull factor of services, treatment and ways of feeding oneself).

So the push factor (families and small towns rejecting or guiding mentally ill people toward bigger centers) and the pull factor (ability to live unhoused but with access to certain services), result in way more mental illness in bigger places. My own town isn't that big, but we have a large green belt, with year round water. It's basically river beds (two of them) and the unhoused people live (and die) there. In these situations, schizophrenic people meet each other, form communities, form romantic attachments and reproduce.

Schizophrenia is a genetic disorder.

These problems are chronic, as many as 3-5% of any population will suffer from psychosis at some point in their lives or have chronic psychosis. It is higher in big cities, due to the factors above.

It is lower in small towns where, basically, many are driven out or sent away or ignore (by their own families in many cases and the families are often suffering from the exhaustion of compassion and coping - and have other children as well).

Our societal decision in the 80's and 90's to get rid of long term care facilities was a terrible decision.

The non-veteran mentally ill population does not have such services. Indeed, most are incapable of locating services and need to be guided to them over and over. It's in the nature of their illness that they will leave and walk and eat very little and drink whatever liquids they find, etc. They seem to have a hard time living indoors. We don't know for sure, because most of this type of schizophrenic can comprehend human language, but rarely speak it properly (and when they do, it may or may not be intelligible; some of them will write but are effectively mute). I've known several schizophrenics who were "impersonators." One was a family of schizophrenics (mom and dad both schizophrenic; 12 children, all schizophrenic; 4 were psychics; 3 were Elvis impersonators; the rest lived off of those efforts). They truly believed they were psychic and could read minds. They had a little sign in the yard of their ramshackle house (this was in New Mexico), stating palm reading and psychic services. They got occasional gigs as Elvis impersonators.

Neely may have had a belief at times that he actually *was* Michael Jackson (as these Elvis impersonators actually believed that they were Elvis). It's a common symptom of schizophrenia. It's an extraordinarily painful illness, as well. High rates of suicide (and I believe Neely's anger and shouting was part of an overall desire to die - the "I'll take a bullet!" is a classic wish (to die, but in a vague way that they can't operationalize unless someone like police take them down for truly threatening behavior - which is rare; or someone like Penny is involved; trained LE and mental health emergency teams use other methods, naturally). Mental pain is terrible pain, leads to dual diagnosis (drug addiction).

At any rate, such people are indeed scary to many. Where I live, LE is trained to recognize and deal with schizophrenics, I'm proud to say. It's been a big part of my life's work to help provide the training (which is all done internally in the Sheriff's division, nowadays - the goal was to train enough LEO's that they could find great and more experienced teachers with each new generation of officers - and so it has come to pass). But my city is smallish (200,000) and the feeder towns from where the schizophrenics come are mostly close by (a region with about 1 million who are connected by public transport, which the schizophrenic population does use). In my personal life, I have known schizophrenic physicians, engineers, college professors. A good friend (schizophrenic; mother was schizophrenic) was one of the psychiatrists who worked alongside me in the research projects. She ended up devoting her life to the schizophrenic populations of the Pacific Northwest, half of whom came from other parts of the country. She gave me a lot of insights into schizophrenia and was expert in helping medication-refusing patients. She traveled from rural clinic to clinic up until the time she died. Had hundreds of patients. We have a deficit of psychiatrists in the US. The older group is dying off and it is not a popular first choice for newly minted MD's.

New York *is* trying but as one of the world's largest cities, boy, it must seem almost hopeless. There are at least 5 schizophrenics that are from my region who are now in NY (I talk to their parents from time to time). No one knows exactly how they got there (and those are just the parents who *know* where their mentally ill children are; a good friend had a tragic event when his schizophrenic son moved away while in remission; long story, but he ended up being killed by police in Sacramento).

I'm just riffing off your mention of the Big City problem. It is a huge problem. And since not everyone lives in a big city, not everyone cares or wants to divert tax dollars from, say, the federal budget to this problem. I'm not sure it's getting worse, it's been a problem for a long time, but it's possible that population growth in the mega-cities has brought the entire system to where we are now. Which is not a good place.

No one can handle schizophrenia merely by urging "personal responsibility" to the sufferer. It's a disease and it's global. Its causes are known, there are treatments, but it is a painful, difficult illness to treat, everywhere.

IMO.
 
  • #376
Seriously, I feel that the system has never been there to start with.
Not picking on you Charlot123 but my guess is he was offered help many times over he last 10 years..because he was so highly visible. It's homebodies and the rural community who have a harder time getting help IMO

Mr. Neely’s history was much more closely documented, and his behavior and actions were
regularly recorded by outreach workers in the subway system, who usually provided aid and moved on, but sometimes took him to shelters.
After his arrest in the assault on the woman in 2021, he spent months in jail, and was released to a mental health facility in February, with medication and a specific 15-month plan toward rehabilitation. But he walked away from the program just 13 days later.

 
  • #377
I have studied homeless mentally ill since around 1985.

My first job in the field involved trying to find veterans with schizophrenia among the mentally ill homeless in Downtown LA. The research director had a grant to study their genes and their brains. First thing he said was that people suffering from schizophrenia and related unclassified psychoses are among the most likely to be homeless, constituting at least 3% of the downtown population, housed or unhoused. All of our research put the incidence of schizophrenia among the homeless in DTLA at 3-5%. As a result of this type of research, we've built suburban housing with mental health units for homeless veterans in California. Where I live, I can see improvement in services (as one of these centers is about half a mile from me - it's beautiful, houses almost entirely mentally ill veterans, including those with dementia). We recently opened a great outpatient treatment center (right next to the police station). We still lack enough beds for everyone, but we recognize that some schizophrenics absolutely won't accept living indoors. There's a local park where LE has decided to manage rather than evict - that too is near my house. So I see many improvements locally but I also fear for the fate of our big cities - where it's not going so well.

Anyway, the reasons so many are homeless and in big cities are two fold.

First, their families either cannot or will not take care of them. As their parents age, the parents can't follow them around and mediate their encounters with the world. Second, big cities provide anonymity and some services unavailable in smaller towns (where a jail cell may be the only place to hold a ranting, floridly psychotic person). One or both parents may be schizophrenic or with some symptoms, as well.

One of the symptoms of schizophrenia (esp. the "negative" schizophrenics) is avoidance of humans and a desire to walk.

Walking schizophrenics are everywhere, but rarely in small towns. Most small towns have 1-2 of this type per 10,000 population, but big cities have way more. Some small towns/families give bus tickets to the big cities. But in general these schizophrenics find their own way into larger areas, where homelessness outpaces resources AND where there are soup kitchens, showers, shelters, meal vouchers, homeless outreach workers, thrift shops, help with getting any source of disability payment, etc, etc. For whatever reason, they walk and walk. I've tracked some people as they wander 20-30 miles in a day or two.

So they end up in big urban centers. For example, Santa Monica has a free clinic (and has had since I started this work) and rapidly became a mecca for homeless from all over the nation (and sometimes, the world). DTLA has similar services. This is the second factor (the pull factor of services, treatment and ways of feeding oneself).

So the push factor (families and small towns rejecting or guiding mentally ill people toward bigger centers) and the pull factor (ability to live unhoused but with access to certain services), result in way more mental illness in bigger places. My own town isn't that big, but we have a large green belt, with year round water. It's basically river beds (two of them) and the unhoused people live (and die) there. In these situations, schizophrenic people meet each other, form communities, form romantic attachments and reproduce.

Schizophrenia is a genetic disorder.

These problems are chronic, as many as 3-5% of any population will suffer from psychosis at some point in their lives or have chronic psychosis. It is higher in big cities, due to the factors above.

It is lower in small towns where, basically, many are driven out or sent away or ignore (by their own families in many cases and the families are often suffering from the exhaustion of compassion and coping - and have other children as well).

Our societal decision in the 80's and 90's to get rid of long term care facilities was a terrible decision.

The non-veteran mentally ill population does not have such services. Indeed, most are incapable of locating services and need to be guided to them over and over. It's in the nature of their illness that they will leave and walk and eat very little and drink whatever liquids they find, etc. They seem to have a hard time living indoors. We don't know for sure, because most of this type of schizophrenic can comprehend human language, but rarely speak it properly (and when they do, it may or may not be intelligible; some of them will write but are effectively mute). I've known several schizophrenics who were "impersonators." One was a family of schizophrenics (mom and dad both schizophrenic; 12 children, all schizophrenic; 4 were psychics; 3 were Elvis impersonators; the rest lived off of those efforts). They truly believed they were psychic and could read minds. They had a little sign in the yard of their ramshackle house (this was in New Mexico), stating palm reading and psychic services. They got occasional gigs as Elvis impersonators.

Neely may have had a belief at times that he actually *was* Michael Jackson (as these Elvis impersonators actually believed that they were Elvis). It's a common symptom of schizophrenia. It's an extraordinarily painful illness, as well. High rates of suicide (and I believe Neely's anger and shouting was part of an overall desire to die - the "I'll take a bullet!" is a classic wish (to die, but in a vague way that they can't operationalize unless someone like police take them down for truly threatening behavior - which is rare; or someone like Penny is involved; trained LE and mental health emergency teams use other methods, naturally). Mental pain is terrible pain, leads to dual diagnosis (drug addiction).

At any rate, such people are indeed scary to many. Where I live, LE is trained to recognize and deal with schizophrenics, I'm proud to say. It's been a big part of my life's work to help provide the training (which is all done internally in the Sheriff's division, nowadays - the goal was to train enough LEO's that they could find great and more experienced teachers with each new generation of officers - and so it has come to pass). But my city is smallish (200,000) and the feeder towns from where the schizophrenics come are mostly close by (a region with about 1 million who are connected by public transport, which the schizophrenic population does use). In my personal life, I have known schizophrenic physicians, engineers, college professors. A good friend (schizophrenic; mother was schizophrenic) was one of the psychiatrists who worked alongside me in the research projects. She ended up devoting her life to the schizophrenic populations of the Pacific Northwest, half of whom came from other parts of the country. She gave me a lot of insights into schizophrenia and was expert in helping medication-refusing patients. She traveled from rural clinic to clinic up until the time she died. Had hundreds of patients. We have a deficit of psychiatrists in the US. The older group is dying off and it is not a popular first choice for newly minted MD's.

New York *is* trying but as one of the world's largest cities, boy, it must seem almost hopeless. There are at least 5 schizophrenics that are from my region who are now in NY (I talk to their parents from time to time). No one knows exactly how they got there (and those are just the parents who *know* where their mentally ill children are; a good friend had a tragic event when his schizophrenic son moved away while in remission; long story, but he ended up being killed by police in Sacramento).

I'm just riffing off your mention of the Big City problem. It is a huge problem. And since not everyone lives in a big city, not everyone cares or wants to divert tax dollars from, say, the federal budget to this problem. I'm not sure it's getting worse, it's been a problem for a long time, but it's possible that population growth in the mega-cities has brought the entire system to where we are now. Which is not a good place.

No one can handle schizophrenia merely by urging "personal responsibility" to the sufferer. It's a disease and it's global. Its causes are known, there are treatments, but it is a painful, difficult illness to treat, everywhere.

IMO.
That is truly amazing work.
I'm just so impressed by the managed parks for those who simply cannot bear being indoors.

Truly inspiring to know this great work is ongoing and successfully so in a world of ableism.
Thank you for sharing .

Made my day happier to know that somewhere on the globe they are being cared for like humans.
 
  • #378
I have studied homeless mentally ill since around 1985.

My first job in the field involved trying to find veterans with schizophrenia among the mentally ill homeless in Downtown LA. The research director had a grant to study their genes and their brains. First thing he said was that people suffering from schizophrenia and related unclassified psychoses are among the most likely to be homeless, constituting at least 3% of the downtown population, housed or unhoused. All of our research put the incidence of schizophrenia among the homeless in DTLA at 3-5%. As a result of this type of research, we've built suburban housing with mental health units for homeless veterans in California. Where I live, I can see improvement in services (as one of these centers is about half a mile from me - it's beautiful, houses almost entirely mentally ill veterans, including those with dementia). We recently opened a great outpatient treatment center (right next to the police station). We still lack enough beds for everyone, but we recognize that some schizophrenics absolutely won't accept living indoors. There's a local park where LE has decided to manage rather than evict - that too is near my house. So I see many improvements locally but I also fear for the fate of our big cities - where it's not going so well.

Anyway, the reasons so many are homeless and in big cities are two fold.

First, their families either cannot or will not take care of them. As their parents age, the parents can't follow them around and mediate their encounters with the world. Second, big cities provide anonymity and some services unavailable in smaller towns (where a jail cell may be the only place to hold a ranting, floridly psychotic person). One or both parents may be schizophrenic or with some symptoms, as well.

One of the symptoms of schizophrenia (esp. the "negative" schizophrenics) is avoidance of humans and a desire to walk.

Walking schizophrenics are everywhere, but rarely in small towns. Most small towns have 1-2 of this type per 10,000 population, but big cities have way more. Some small towns/families give bus tickets to the big cities. But in general these schizophrenics find their own way into larger areas, where homelessness outpaces resources AND where there are soup kitchens, showers, shelters, meal vouchers, homeless outreach workers, thrift shops, help with getting any source of disability payment, etc, etc. For whatever reason, they walk and walk. I've tracked some people as they wander 20-30 miles in a day or two.

So they end up in big urban centers. For example, Santa Monica has a free clinic (and has had since I started this work) and rapidly became a mecca for homeless from all over the nation (and sometimes, the world). DTLA has similar services. This is the second factor (the pull factor of services, treatment and ways of feeding oneself).

So the push factor (families and small towns rejecting or guiding mentally ill people toward bigger centers) and the pull factor (ability to live unhoused but with access to certain services), result in way more mental illness in bigger places. My own town isn't that big, but we have a large green belt, with year round water. It's basically river beds (two of them) and the unhoused people live (and die) there. In these situations, schizophrenic people meet each other, form communities, form romantic attachments and reproduce.

Schizophrenia is a genetic disorder.

These problems are chronic, as many as 3-5% of any population will suffer from psychosis at some point in their lives or have chronic psychosis. It is higher in big cities, due to the factors above.

It is lower in small towns where, basically, many are driven out or sent away or ignore (by their own families in many cases and the families are often suffering from the exhaustion of compassion and coping - and have other children as well).

Our societal decision in the 80's and 90's to get rid of long term care facilities was a terrible decision.

The non-veteran mentally ill population does not have such services. Indeed, most are incapable of locating services and need to be guided to them over and over. It's in the nature of their illness that they will leave and walk and eat very little and drink whatever liquids they find, etc. They seem to have a hard time living indoors. We don't know for sure, because most of this type of schizophrenic can comprehend human language, but rarely speak it properly (and when they do, it may or may not be intelligible; some of them will write but are effectively mute). I've known several schizophrenics who were "impersonators." One was a family of schizophrenics (mom and dad both schizophrenic; 12 children, all schizophrenic; 4 were psychics; 3 were Elvis impersonators; the rest lived off of those efforts). They truly believed they were psychic and could read minds. They had a little sign in the yard of their ramshackle house (this was in New Mexico), stating palm reading and psychic services. They got occasional gigs as Elvis impersonators.

Neely may have had a belief at times that he actually *was* Michael Jackson (as these Elvis impersonators actually believed that they were Elvis). It's a common symptom of schizophrenia. It's an extraordinarily painful illness, as well. High rates of suicide (and I believe Neely's anger and shouting was part of an overall desire to die - the "I'll take a bullet!" is a classic wish (to die, but in a vague way that they can't operationalize unless someone like police take them down for truly threatening behavior - which is rare; or someone like Penny is involved; trained LE and mental health emergency teams use other methods, naturally). Mental pain is terrible pain, leads to dual diagnosis (drug addiction).

At any rate, such people are indeed scary to many. Where I live, LE is trained to recognize and deal with schizophrenics, I'm proud to say. It's been a big part of my life's work to help provide the training (which is all done internally in the Sheriff's division, nowadays - the goal was to train enough LEO's that they could find great and more experienced teachers with each new generation of officers - and so it has come to pass). But my city is smallish (200,000) and the feeder towns from where the schizophrenics come are mostly close by (a region with about 1 million who are connected by public transport, which the schizophrenic population does use). In my personal life, I have known schizophrenic physicians, engineers, college professors. A good friend (schizophrenic; mother was schizophrenic) was one of the psychiatrists who worked alongside me in the research projects. She ended up devoting her life to the schizophrenic populations of the Pacific Northwest, half of whom came from other parts of the country. She gave me a lot of insights into schizophrenia and was expert in helping medication-refusing patients. She traveled from rural clinic to clinic up until the time she died. Had hundreds of patients. We have a deficit of psychiatrists in the US. The older group is dying off and it is not a popular first choice for newly minted MD's.

New York *is* trying but as one of the world's largest cities, boy, it must seem almost hopeless. There are at least 5 schizophrenics that are from my region who are now in NY (I talk to their parents from time to time). No one knows exactly how they got there (and those are just the parents who *know* where their mentally ill children are; a good friend had a tragic event when his schizophrenic son moved away while in remission; long story, but he ended up being killed by police in Sacramento).

I'm just riffing off your mention of the Big City problem. It is a huge problem. And since not everyone lives in a big city, not everyone cares or wants to divert tax dollars from, say, the federal budget to this problem. I'm not sure it's getting worse, it's been a problem for a long time, but it's possible that population growth in the mega-cities has brought the entire system to where we are now. Which is not a good place.

No one can handle schizophrenia merely by urging "personal responsibility" to the sufferer. It's a disease and it's global. Its causes are known, there are treatments, but it is a painful, difficult illness to treat, everywhere.

IMO.
GREAT post. Thank you for sharing your experience and insight into a really complex topic.

imo
 
  • #379
I have studied homeless mentally ill since around 1985.

My first job in the field involved trying to find veterans with schizophrenia among the mentally ill homeless in Downtown LA. The research director had a grant to study their genes and their brains. First thing he said was that people suffering from schizophrenia and related unclassified psychoses are among the most likely to be homeless, constituting at least 3% of the downtown population, housed or unhoused. All of our research put the incidence of schizophrenia among the homeless in DTLA at 3-5%. As a result of this type of research, we've built suburban housing with mental health units for homeless veterans in California. Where I live, I can see improvement in services (as one of these centers is about half a mile from me - it's beautiful, houses almost entirely mentally ill veterans, including those with dementia). We recently opened a great outpatient treatment center (right next to the police station). We still lack enough beds for everyone, but we recognize that some schizophrenics absolutely won't accept living indoors. There's a local park where LE has decided to manage rather than evict - that too is near my house. So I see many improvements locally but I also fear for the fate of our big cities - where it's not going so well.

Anyway, the reasons so many are homeless and in big cities are two fold.

First, their families either cannot or will not take care of them. As their parents age, the parents can't follow them around and mediate their encounters with the world. Second, big cities provide anonymity and some services unavailable in smaller towns (where a jail cell may be the only place to hold a ranting, floridly psychotic person). One or both parents may be schizophrenic or with some symptoms, as well.

One of the symptoms of schizophrenia (esp. the "negative" schizophrenics) is avoidance of humans and a desire to walk.

Walking schizophrenics are everywhere, but rarely in small towns. Most small towns have 1-2 of this type per 10,000 population, but big cities have way more. Some small towns/families give bus tickets to the big cities. But in general these schizophrenics find their own way into larger areas, where homelessness outpaces resources AND where there are soup kitchens, showers, shelters, meal vouchers, homeless outreach workers, thrift shops, help with getting any source of disability payment, etc, etc. For whatever reason, they walk and walk. I've tracked some people as they wander 20-30 miles in a day or two.

So they end up in big urban centers. For example, Santa Monica has a free clinic (and has had since I started this work) and rapidly became a mecca for homeless from all over the nation (and sometimes, the world). DTLA has similar services. This is the second factor (the pull factor of services, treatment and ways of feeding oneself).

So the push factor (families and small towns rejecting or guiding mentally ill people toward bigger centers) and the pull factor (ability to live unhoused but with access to certain services), result in way more mental illness in bigger places. My own town isn't that big, but we have a large green belt, with year round water. It's basically river beds (two of them) and the unhoused people live (and die) there. In these situations, schizophrenic people meet each other, form communities, form romantic attachments and reproduce.

Schizophrenia is a genetic disorder.

These problems are chronic, as many as 3-5% of any population will suffer from psychosis at some point in their lives or have chronic psychosis. It is higher in big cities, due to the factors above.

It is lower in small towns where, basically, many are driven out or sent away or ignore (by their own families in many cases and the families are often suffering from the exhaustion of compassion and coping - and have other children as well).

Our societal decision in the 80's and 90's to get rid of long term care facilities was a terrible decision.

The non-veteran mentally ill population does not have such services. Indeed, most are incapable of locating services and need to be guided to them over and over. It's in the nature of their illness that they will leave and walk and eat very little and drink whatever liquids they find, etc. They seem to have a hard time living indoors. We don't know for sure, because most of this type of schizophrenic can comprehend human language, but rarely speak it properly (and when they do, it may or may not be intelligible; some of them will write but are effectively mute). I've known several schizophrenics who were "impersonators." One was a family of schizophrenics (mom and dad both schizophrenic; 12 children, all schizophrenic; 4 were psychics; 3 were Elvis impersonators; the rest lived off of those efforts). They truly believed they were psychic and could read minds. They had a little sign in the yard of their ramshackle house (this was in New Mexico), stating palm reading and psychic services. They got occasional gigs as Elvis impersonators.

Neely may have had a belief at times that he actually *was* Michael Jackson (as these Elvis impersonators actually believed that they were Elvis). It's a common symptom of schizophrenia. It's an extraordinarily painful illness, as well. High rates of suicide (and I believe Neely's anger and shouting was part of an overall desire to die - the "I'll take a bullet!" is a classic wish (to die, but in a vague way that they can't operationalize unless someone like police take them down for truly threatening behavior - which is rare; or someone like Penny is involved; trained LE and mental health emergency teams use other methods, naturally). Mental pain is terrible pain, leads to dual diagnosis (drug addiction).

At any rate, such people are indeed scary to many. Where I live, LE is trained to recognize and deal with schizophrenics, I'm proud to say. It's been a big part of my life's work to help provide the training (which is all done internally in the Sheriff's division, nowadays - the goal was to train enough LEO's that they could find great and more experienced teachers with each new generation of officers - and so it has come to pass). But my city is smallish (200,000) and the feeder towns from where the schizophrenics come are mostly close by (a region with about 1 million who are connected by public transport, which the schizophrenic population does use). In my personal life, I have known schizophrenic physicians, engineers, college professors. A good friend (schizophrenic; mother was schizophrenic) was one of the psychiatrists who worked alongside me in the research projects. She ended up devoting her life to the schizophrenic populations of the Pacific Northwest, half of whom came from other parts of the country. She gave me a lot of insights into schizophrenia and was expert in helping medication-refusing patients. She traveled from rural clinic to clinic up until the time she died. Had hundreds of patients. We have a deficit of psychiatrists in the US. The older group is dying off and it is not a popular first choice for newly minted MD's.

New York *is* trying but as one of the world's largest cities, boy, it must seem almost hopeless. There are at least 5 schizophrenics that are from my region who are now in NY (I talk to their parents from time to time). No one knows exactly how they got there (and those are just the parents who *know* where their mentally ill children are; a good friend had a tragic event when his schizophrenic son moved away while in remission; long story, but he ended up being killed by police in Sacramento).

I'm just riffing off your mention of the Big City problem. It is a huge problem. And since not everyone lives in a big city, not everyone cares or wants to divert tax dollars from, say, the federal budget to this problem. I'm not sure it's getting worse, it's been a problem for a long time, but it's possible that population growth in the mega-cities has brought the entire system to where we are now. Which is not a good place.

No one can handle schizophrenia merely by urging "personal responsibility" to the sufferer. It's a disease and it's global. Its causes are known, there are treatments, but it is a painful, difficult illness to treat, everywhere.

IMO.

Again, thank you @10ofRods for sharing your expertise and experience with us so that we can truly understand what schizophrenic members of our communities go through. I’m encouraged by the help your community provides.
 
  • #380
Not picking on you Charlot123 but my guess is he was offered help many times over he last 10 years..because he was so highly visible. It's homebodies and the rural community who have a harder time getting help IMO

Mr. Neely’s history was much more closely documented, and his behavior and actions were
regularly recorded by outreach workers in the subway system, who usually provided aid and moved on, but sometimes took him to shelters.
After his arrest in the assault on the woman in 2021, he spent months in jail, and was released to a mental health facility in February, with medication and a specific 15-month plan toward rehabilitation. But he walked away from the program just 13 days later.


I hope the post @10ofRods just wrote helps all of us understand Mr Neely walking away from help. Mr Neely was mentally ill. He was schizophrenic…a terrible disease. Walking away from the treatment program and rejecting other help offered is something they do *because* they are mentally ill.

JMO
 
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