NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

[Sundog]

Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. He was a diagnosed schizophrenic so there's that, and people who knew have said he was a friendly guy.

The victims of his violent crimes wouldn't describe him that way.

 

[IceIce9]

Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. He was a diagnosed schizophrenic so there's that, and people who knew have said he was a friendly guy.

Friendly guys don’t threaten and frighten people on public transportation who are just attempting to go about their day.

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

After discussion with Tricia, WS will allow members to respectfully discuss the following.

At NY Post and TMZ, there are images of Daniel Penny where he has a chest tattoo that appears to portray the biblical story of Samson battling/slaying the lion.

Marine who put Jordan Neely in chokehold on NYC subway identified as Daniel Penny

The Marine who put Jordan Neely in a chokehold on an NYC subway has been identified.

nypost.com

from: Marine Vet Daniel Penny Arrested for Manslaughter in Jordan Neely Death

We are allowing this discussion with the caveat that ... Members may speculate and reasonably discuss the tattoo and its possible meaning, but remember to state your opinion without bickering or engaging in extensive or contentious religious/biblical discussion.

While opinions may vary, posts that are determined to be antagonistic, inflammatory or inciteful will be removed, so please post accordingly.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

Part of the tragedy is that his friends and family, who speak so highly of him, were not able to help him. IMO.

I agree. Sadly, I don't think at this stage of his life anything other than being incarcerated could have helped him
He seems to have done very well in those 15 months he was in jail, and I don't think he could manage by himself.

I think its very possible that his intent on the train that day was to get arrested. He was close to the next stop, he said things that could be perceived as threatening, whilst not actively threatening anyone in particular, enough to get the cops called so he could go back to jail.

Unfortunately there was someone on the train that day that took his threats seriously, which is understandable, and maybe a risk Jordan didn't calculate, and we know what happened next.

My personal opinion is that neither man had any real intent for violence that day, and I don't think for a minute Penny had any intent of violence at all, he made a judgement, the wrong one in my opinion, and then he made a decision, also the wrong one in my opinion, and now this is where we are.

My issue with this situation is the fact that Daniel Penny should have chosen a better way, but he chose a chokehold, which he didn't execute properly and which he didn't stop when it obviously wasn't working as intended, and people were warning him to stop.

In the end, when all is said and done, Jordan Neely is dead because Daniel Penny chose not to stop. It didn't have to end this way.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

Friendly guys don’t threaten and frighten people on public transportation who are just attempting to go about their day.

No they don't. But unmedicated schizophrenics very well might.

 

[HmmMysterious]

I agree. Sadly, I don't think at this stage of his life anything other than being incarcerated could have helped him
He seems to have done very well in those 15 months he was in jail, and I don't think he could manage by himself.

I think its very possible that his intent on the train that day was to get arrested. He was close to the next stop, he said things that could be perceived as threatening, whilst not actively threatening anyone in particular, enough to get the cops called so he could go back to jail.

Unfortunately there was someone on the train that day that took his threats seriously, which is understandable, and maybe a risk Jordan didn't calculate, and we know what happened next.

My personal opinion is that neither man had any real intent for violence that day, and I don't think for a minute Penny had any intent of violence at all, he made a judgement, the wrong one in my opinion, and then he made a decision, also the wrong one in my opinion, and now this is where we are.

My issue with this situation is the fact that Daniel Penny should have chosen a better way, but he chose a chokehold, which he didn't execute properly and which he didn't stop when it obviously wasn't working as intended, and people were warning him to stop.

In the end, when all is said and done, Jordan Neely is dead because Daniel Penny chose not to stop. It didn't have to end this way.

If Jordan wanted to get arrested, then that's a sad way of thinking and a pretty damning indictment of the mental healthcare system as a whole. But I don't agree with you saying that Penny didn't had any intent of violence. I find it hard to believe that his way of being a Good Samaritan was to choke someone out.

 

[IceIce9]

As a WS verified EMT, I will take your word for it.
I can't even imagine the kind of stuff you folks see and deal with every day.

The protocol is that EMTs do not approach a person who is displaying threatening or violent behavior until LE shows up to control the situation and ensure the safety of the scene.

Countless rescue workers have been injured when responding to people with mental issues or suffering from drug overdoses.

 

[Jade]

Friendly guys don’t threaten and frighten people on public transportation who are just attempting to go about their day.

Friendly people get Schizophrenia too.

Here is a link to better understand the impact of the Schizophrenia including this:


Who gets Schizophrenia?

Anyone can. It’s equally common among men and women and among ethnic groups


A Visual Guide to Schizophrenia



Neely did not directly threaten any individual from the reporting so far.

 

[Ontario Mom]

ADMIN NOTE:

After discussion with Tricia, WS will allow members to respectfully discuss the following.
At NY Post and TMZ, there are images of Daniel Penny where he has a chest tattoo that appears to portray the biblical story of Samson battling/slaying the lion.

<RSBM>

Without Daniel Penny here to tell us exactly why he got this ink and what it means to him, that topic will be all over the map. I have tons of ink covering nearly the entire left side of my body, and without asking me what it means (and it all does mean something) no one would ever guess correctly.

In addition, I'm confused on what Penny's ink has to do with this case?

 

[SugarQueen]

I don’t see a connection to his ink either. I’m sure someone will come along and explain.

 

[Sundog]

I think it's fairly straight forward. Penny is likely a Christian and chose a Biblical tattoo. And this particular tattoo is a fitting image for a Marine. I wonder what tattoos other Marines choose.

It also could have some special meaning for Mr. Penny, it could have inspired him to keep going, to be brave in hard times.

I think it's sad that various media are speculating on this kind of thing, as if it has anything to do with the subway incident.


spelling edited

 

[Allabouttrial]

I think it's fairly straight forward. Penny is likely a Christian and chose a Biblical tatoo. And this particular tatoo is a fitting image for a Marine. I wonder what tatoos other Marines choose.

It also could have some special meaning for Mr. Penny, it could have inspired him to keep going, to be brave in hard times.

I think it's sad that various media are speculating on this kind of thing, as if it has anything to do with the subway incident.

My brother was a commando and is tattooed from head to foot with a myriad of different ones. He has a huge scorpian covering his entire back.

 

[Sillybilly]

<RSBM>

Without Daniel Penny here to tell us exactly why he got this ink and what it means to him, that topic will be all over the map. I have tons of ink covering nearly the entire left side of my body, and without asking me what it means (and it all does mean something) no one would ever guess correctly.

In addition, I'm confused on what Penny's ink has to do with this case?

We've never had a perp explain their tattoos, and nobody has ever had an issue with discussion of tattoos in other cases at Websleuths. This case is no different.

 

[caradana]

I think it's fairly straight forward. Penny is likely a Christian and chose a Biblical tattoo. And this particular tattoo is a fitting image for a Marine. I wonder what tattoos other Marines choose.

It also could have some special meaning for Mr. Penny, it could have inspired him to keep going, to be brave in hard times.

I think it's sad that various media are speculating on this kind of thing, as if it has anything to do with the subway incident.


spelling edited

Totally in contrast - I find that choice of tattoo to be utterly fascinating. That scene from the Book of Judges, violent strength, “the honey coming from death“ (metaphorical for the demise of the enemies of his homeland) - of all the choices of ink, this was the choice - wow. Perhaps Penny saw no allegory there at the time, but he related to the story enough to put it permanently on his chest …

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

Friendly people get Schizophrenia too.

Here is a link to better understand the impact of the Schizophrenia including this:


Who gets Schizophrenia?

Anyone can. It’s equally common among men and women and among ethnic groups


A Visual Guide to Schizophrenia



Neely did not directly threaten any individual from the reporting so far.

RBBM

I think he used threatening language to everyone within earshot. imo

The witness told The Post that Neely, 30, went on an explosive tirade just before his caught-on-camera death, telling people he was willing to “kill a motherf—er” and “[take] a bullet” and go to jail.

Neely’s erratic behavior put commuters on the F train subway car on edge as they hurtled between stations in Manhattan, the witness said.

Witness to Jordan Neely chokehold death calls Daniel Penny a ‘hero’ and offers to testify on his behalf

“The rhetoric from Mr. Neely was very frightening, it was very harsh,” the witness told The Post.

nypost.com

Schizophrenia and friendliness are not mutually exclusive. He could have been friendly but imo he was experiencing a psychotic episode. While offering food and water is well meaning, it is nearly impossible to reason with someone going through this in my limited experience and humble opinion.

 

[Cryptic]

'Superhuman strength' has become a trope.

Most people, even when fighting instictually stop short of truly trying to hurt a person. There is usually a slow escalation in a physical confrontation. Black eyes, bloody noses, being pushed down is not being truly hurt.

A good example of "ordinary" violence (yawn) is this school soccer brawl. Fists are being thrown and people are being pushed down bleachers- but nobody is going "full on maim or be maimed", not even the rather skilled aggressor.

Virginia man arrested for sparking violent brawl at high school soccer game

A Virginia man was arrested after tossing a group of people down bleachers at a high school soccer game, sparking a full-blown brawl that left five people in the hospital. Donald Guerrant, 24,&nbsp…

nypost.com

But... some people including the aggressively criminal as well as some who are mentally disturbed and /or drugged can go into "full on- maim or be maimed, kill or be killed" violence very quickly.

There is a huge world of difference in both the level of violence, the amount of injury, and the level of difficulty in trying to control somebody operating in "full on" mode.

Need for a gradual push come to shove escalation? No. Using uninhibited, full strength from second one? Absolutely Targeting eyes, throat, head, spinal areas? Ohhh yes. Ignoring ones own injuries to continue an attack? Standard. Repeated attacks on a victim who is not resisting? The norm.

"Superhuman strength" maybe an inaccurate choice of words. But whether the term is "super human strength" or "uninhibited aggression" the concept is same. Its a whole other level of violence.

 

[Sundog]

Totally in contrast - I find that choice of tattoo to be utterly fascinating. That scene from the Book of Judges, violent strength, “the honey coming from death“ (metaphorical for the demise of the enemies of his homeland) - of all the choices of ink, this was the choice - wow. Perhaps Penny saw no allegory there at the time, but he related to the story enough to put it permanently on his chest …

Good choice for a Marine, I would think.

 

[JennieM]

I can accept that Neely could have been threatening and put people on edge.

I cannot accept that at that level of perceived threat, he had to end up dead.

Penny jumped the gun. I hope he has the humility to understand and accept that Neely did not deserve to die that day and he is the one responsible for taking his life. He took his life.

 

[Ontario Mom]

I can accept that Neely could have been threatening and put people on edge.

I cannot accept that at that level of perceived threat, he had to end up dead.

Penny jumped the gun. I hope he has the humility to understand and accept that Neely did not deserve to die that day and he is the one responsible for taking his life. He took his life.

From the very little I've read in MSM of Penny's character, I don't believe he ever thought Neely deserved to die.

 

[10ofRods]

I don’t see a connection to his ink either. I’m sure someone will come along and explain.

Those of us who try hard to understand everything about violence and crime are interested in all the details. One of the first things I'd ask Penny, if I ever met him, is whether he identifies with Samson. I would expect the answer to be yes, but would be very interested to know what he says.

I am also interested in interpersonal dynamics. The tattoo is not publicly visible, but it seems to me that romantic partners would see it. It would lead to many interesting discussions about the Bible, in my world. It's a really specific Biblical reference. I think the picture used to show his tattoos is interesting as a whole (more interesting than the actual tattoo). Nothing wrong with a man wanting to be strong and identifying with Samson. The entire motif (Strong Hero) is the subject of many, many proudly displayed tattoos. The Bible story clearly puts the lion in the wrong, so it's not a straightforward Might is Right tattoo, IMO.

OTOH, some people prefer a different type of man, so it is indeed a statement of personality in my world. Tearing large animals apart with one's bare hands is a pretty clear statement about the person's overall world- and self-view. I would not be able to unsee its meaning. Hemingway-esque is how I'd describe it.

IMO.