NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest* #2

[Elliot_Alderson]

I've seen no media reports that say when or where JN got on the train or where or when Penny got on the train.

The guy who took the video said the chokehold lasted 15 minutes but I take what he says with a grain of salt. His agenda was to get media attention for himself and it worked.

JMO

A chokehold can manslaughter someone within 3-4 minutes

Doctors Have Long Warned That Chokeholds Are Deadly

 

[elevatorific]

I've seen no media reports that say when or where JN got on the train or where or when Penny got on the train.

The guy who took the video said the chokehold lasted 15 minutes but I take what he says with a grain of salt. His agenda was to get media attention for himself and it worked.

JMO

JN boarded at 2nd Ave. 2 minutes later it arrived at the next stop where JN died.
This is a well established fact at this point in the case.

Daniel Penny arraigned on manslaughter charge, enters no plea; Neely's family attorneys speak out

Attorneys Donte Mills and Lennon Edwards praised Penny's arrest but object to the fact that he is not being charged with murder.

abc7ny.com

Jordan Neely Was on Special NYC Watchlist of City's Most At-Risk, Sources Say

A Manhattan grand jury could consider potential criminal charges this week in the subway chokehold death of Jordan Neely, who sources say was on a special watchlist of the city’s most at-risk people. The 30-year-old known by many in the city for his years spent performing as a Michael Jackson...

www.nbcnewyork.com

What We Know About Jordan Neely’s Killing (Published 2023)

Daniel Penny choked Jordan Neely to death on a New York City subway train on May 1. Mr. Penny has been charged with second-degree manslaughter.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Ontario Mom]

I've seen no media reports that say when or where JN got on the train or where or when Penny got on the train.

The guy who took the video said the chokehold lasted 15 minutes but I take what he says with a grain of salt. His agenda was to get media attention for himself and it worked.

JMO

We may have to wait until this goes to court then, to learn the actual timeline. I have a feeling it's a lot shorter than 15 minutes and there were many more witnesses than we even know about.

jmo

 

[Ontario Mom]

A chokehold can manslaughter someone within 3-4 minutes

Doctors Have Long Warned That Chokeholds Are Deadly

I would have honestly thought sooner. Thanks for the link on it.

Also, I see what you did there.

 

[10ofRods]

JN boarded at 2nd Ave. 2 minutes later it arrived at the next stop where JN died.
This is a well established fact at this point in the case.

Daniel Penny arraigned on manslaughter charge, enters no plea; Neely's family attorneys speak out

Attorneys Donte Mills and Lennon Edwards praised Penny's arrest but object to the fact that he is not being charged with murder.

abc7ny.com

Jordan Neely Was on Special NYC Watchlist of City's Most At-Risk, Sources Say

A Manhattan grand jury could consider potential criminal charges this week in the subway chokehold death of Jordan Neely, who sources say was on a special watchlist of the city’s most at-risk people. The 30-year-old known by many in the city for his years spent performing as a Michael Jackson...

www.nbcnewyork.com

What We Know About Jordan Neely’s Killing (Published 2023)

Daniel Penny choked Jordan Neely to death on a New York City subway train on May 1. Mr. Penny has been charged with second-degree manslaughter.

www.nytimes.com

Okay, so if one witness says the chokehold was applied 30 seconds before arrival at the next station, then there were 90 seconds for the threat to rise to the level where physical confrontation was needed.

Do subways have any way of contacting the conductor? Are there personnel at NYC subway platforms? The door could have been held open - I think. I've only been in the NYC subway 3X.

I appreciate your posts, Elevatorific, and do not mean to imply that you would personally know the answers (but you might!)

The source of the 30 seconds of neck compression before arriving at the next platform is the journalist who was on the car, already linked throughout these threads. I'm just trying to make sense of the timeline. There are definitely a bit over 3 minutes of continued compression after this journalist exits (he says) the car, and then re-enters (there are then 5 other people still watching Penny, plus Neely and Penny; two of these witnesses exit soon after the videographer comes back in the car). Not counting Penny, the living witnesses who were there until near the end were 5 in number. 3 stay until the end. One of them is concerned that Penny is killing Neely and tries to discourage him, IMO.

The photojournalist expresses regret about not doing more. These are actual witnesses, not SM commentators (some of whom are bots, obviously). IMO.

 

[10ofRods]

I've seen no media reports that say when or where JN got on the train or where or when Penny got on the train.

The guy who took the video said the chokehold lasted 15 minutes but I take what he says with a grain of salt. His agenda was to get media attention for himself and it worked.

JMO

I"ve seen an account of Neely getting on the train, in which it says that he got on at the very last minute, as the doors were almost closed. The person stating this to media said that everyone had to squeeze together tightly to get him in. I do not remember which source, but I got to it from here on Websleuths. I'll look for the link but no link right now, so IMO.

Penny is said to be seated on the train, so he would have had to get on the train before Neely - but I do not know at which stop.

The next stop, per several posters here and local NYers is 2 minutes away. The name of the stop where Neely boarded has been posted several times here, when I see it again, I'll post.

IMO. I'm sure NYers remember off the top of their heads, I sure don't.

 

[elevatorific]

Okay, so if one witness says the chokehold was applied 30 seconds before arrival at the next station, then there were 90 seconds for the threat to rise to the level where physical confrontation was needed.

Do subways have any way of contacting the conductor? Are there personnel at NYC subway platforms? The door could have been held open - I think. I've only been in the NYC subway 3X.

I appreciate your posts, Elevatorific, and do not mean to imply that you would personally know the answers (but you might!)

The source of the 30 seconds of neck compression before arriving at the next platform is the journalist who was on the car, already linked throughout these threads. I'm just trying to make sense of the timeline. There are definitely a bit over 3 minutes of continued compression after this journalist exits (he says) the car, and then re-enters (there are then 5 other people still watching Penny, plus Neely and Penny; two of these witnesses exit soon after the videographer comes back in the car). Not counting Penny, the living witnesses who were there until near the end were 5 in number. 3 stay until the end. One of them is concerned that Penny is killing Neely and tries to discourage him, IMO.

The photojournalist expresses regret about not doing more. These are actual witnesses, not SM commentators (some of whom are bots, obviously). IMO.

Wait, who said 30 seconds?! No one knows when the chokehold started. It could have been 1 minute 59 seconds before arriving at platform (although that doesn't leave any time for terrifying behavior), or 1 second before arriving platform (although would be... even more wild).

 

[Ontario Mom]

JN boarded at 2nd Ave. 2 minutes later it arrived at the next stop where JN died.

I don't know how I missed this but, WHAT?
If JN died 2 minutes after he boarded the train, how did Penny choke him out for 15 minutes?

 

[elevatorific]

I don't know how I missed this but, WHAT?
If JN died 2 minutes after he boarded the train, how did Penny choke him out for 15 minutes?

He did NOT die in 2 minutes! No one said that!
The train reached the platform 2 minutes after Jordan boarded it. Then an unknown amount of time passed. Then the video begins. Then he dies.

eta - Not disputing the original 15 minutes may have been an exaggeration. Just saying there was a tiny amount of time for JN to do the terrorizing and a large amount of time for everyone including him JN to retreat at the station if someone would have let go of his neck. imo

 

[Ontario Mom]

He did NOT die in 2 minutes! No one said that!
The train reached the platform 2 minutes after Jordan boarded it. Then an unknown amount of time passed. Then the video begins. Then he dies.

Thank you, lol. I misunderstood your post, so thank you for explaining.

 

[mickey2942]

If nothing else, this demonstrates how dangerous public transportation in NYC is...Mr. Penny felt threatened enough to resort to lethal force. He is a healthy young man, and he felt he was in a dire situation.

The scary thing, is that as an elderly, disabled woman, I probably would have been the one killed in a threatening situation.

I think that we can all agree, NYC has a major security problem in the public transportation system.

New Police Presence in Subway Not Making All MTA Workers Feel Safer

The announcements became ubiquitous in just a couple of days, but some conductors say it’s background noise and could actually put a bigger target on their backs.

www.thecity.nyc

 

[squareandrabbet]

JN boarded at 2nd Ave. 2 minutes later it arrived at the next stop where JN died.
This is a well established fact at this point in the case.

Daniel Penny arraigned on manslaughter charge, enters no plea; Neely's family attorneys speak out

Attorneys Donte Mills and Lennon Edwards praised Penny's arrest but object to the fact that he is not being charged with murder.

abc7ny.com

Jordan Neely Was on Special NYC Watchlist of City's Most At-Risk, Sources Say

A Manhattan grand jury could consider potential criminal charges this week in the subway chokehold death of Jordan Neely, who sources say was on a special watchlist of the city’s most at-risk people. The 30-year-old known by many in the city for his years spent performing as a Michael Jackson...

www.nbcnewyork.com

What We Know About Jordan Neely’s Killing (Published 2023)

Daniel Penny choked Jordan Neely to death on a New York City subway train on May 1. Mr. Penny has been charged with second-degree manslaughter.

www.nytimes.com

Broadway/Lafayette? Pretty sure that's it, only bc friends of mine live near there.

 

[MyBelle]

If nothing else, this demonstrates how dangerous public transportation in NYC is...Mr. Penny felt threatened enough to resort to lethal force. He is a healthy young man, and he felt he was in a dire situation.

The scary thing, is that as an elderly, disabled woman, I probably would have been the one killed in a threatening situation.

I think that we can all agree, NYC has a major security problem in the public transportation system.

New Police Presence in Subway Not Making All MTA Workers Feel Safer

The announcements became ubiquitous in just a couple of days, but some conductors say it’s background noise and could actually put a bigger target on their backs.

www.thecity.nyc

That's an interesting link. I wonder if JN was aware of those loudspeaker announcements and his goal that day was to get arrested.

From your link:
and added on-train announcements to the subterranean soundtrack.

JMO

 

[squareandrabbet]

Okay, so if one witness says the chokehold was applied 30 seconds before arrival at the next station, then there were 90 seconds for the threat to rise to the level where physical confrontation was needed.

Do subways have any way of contacting the conductor? Are there personnel at NYC subway platforms? The door could have been held open - I think. I've only been in the NYC subway 3X.

I appreciate your posts, Elevatorific, and do not mean to imply that you would personally know the answers (but you might!)

The source of the 30 seconds of neck compression before arriving at the next platform is the journalist who was on the car, already linked throughout these threads. I'm just trying to make sense of the timeline. There are definitely a bit over 3 minutes of continued compression after this journalist exits (he says) the car, and then re-enters (there are then 5 other people still watching Penny, plus Neely and Penny; two of these witnesses exit soon after the videographer comes back in the car). Not counting Penny, the living witnesses who were there until near the end were 5 in number. 3 stay until the end. One of them is concerned that Penny is killing Neely and tries to discourage him, IMO.

The photojournalist expresses regret about not doing more. These are actual witnesses, not SM commentators (some of whom are bots, obviously). IMO.

There are no personnel on trains, with the exception of the conductor and driver.

You can get the attention of the conductor through the side window of their car when you are outside it: and you have the option of an emergency brake to pull in each car, although purportedly this stops the subway wherever it stands, including underground between tunnels, so people are loath to deploy this whenever they don’t have to. I’ve never actually seen it deployed.

theoretically, you could also get in to the engineer if you are in the first car, or in to the conductor if you are in their middle car from pounding on their internal door, but I have no idea what, if anything, it would take to get them to actually open a door; it’s been a long time since I’ve seen the Taking of Pelham 123.

basically, once you’re on the train, you’re stuck.

if you randomly pull the emergency brake, you’re stuck wherever and whenever you are with whatever dire situation you’re stuck with: plus the fact that your fellow commuters won’t be able to actually get anywhere until the issue is resolved, so if you pull it without just cause you’ll be pretty unpopular.

I do think since the new governor started bragging about installing cameras, etc., there has been a larger police presence, but I would primarily say I’ve noticed that in terms of being able to get NYPD attention fairly quickly when you roll/are into a station.

ETA: as for 'people in the stations', you might have/find a live clerk in the token booth; you might not. it really depends upon the station.

If you need to reach someone, there should be some type of emergency call box on the train platform, once the doors open at a train station.

Again, never having needed to deploy this nuclear option myself, I don’t know about their response time.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

If nothing else, this demonstrates how dangerous public transportation in NYC is...Mr. Penny felt threatened enough to resort to lethal force. He is a healthy young man, and he felt he was in a dire situation.

The scary thing, is that as an elderly, disabled woman, I probably would have been the one killed in a threatening situation.

I think that we can all agree, NYC has a major security problem in the public transportation system.

New Police Presence in Subway Not Making All MTA Workers Feel Safer

The announcements became ubiquitous in just a couple of days, but some conductors say it’s background noise and could actually put a bigger target on their backs.

www.thecity.nyc

Thanks for the link. I found it interesting that train conductors have concerns about making announcements of NYPD presence at certain stations.

While union officials said they welcome the addition of police officers in stations and on platforms, they also expressed concern from train crew members that the announcements could drive disturbed individuals to violently turn on conductors when they poke their heads out of train car windows at stops.

New Police Presence in Subway Not Making All MTA Workers Feel Safer

The announcements became ubiquitous in just a couple of days, but some conductors say it’s background noise and could actually put a bigger target on their backs.

www.thecity.nyc

 

[MyBelle]

We may have to wait until this goes to court then, to learn the actual timeline. I have a feeling it's a lot shorter than 15 minutes and there were many more witnesses than we even know about.

jmo

ITA. In the video, JN struggled for several minutes. That tells me that the chokehold wasn't that tight because a chokehold usually results in loss of consciousness in seconds, not minutes.

I'm wondering if JN lost consciousness and then choked on his own vomit? That could explain why the compression only CPR didn't work. I'm also still wondering why LE waited so long to call EMTs.
JMO

https://www.courts.ca.gov/documents/BTB25-PreConDV-05.pdf

 

[Laughing]

Have you never then seen the famous depictions of Samson?

Head back back to the Bible for the details. I've already provided links!

Obviously never attended long days of summer vacation Bible camp. Samson is about all you have in the Bible for a bad boy hottie.

imo

Link, please, that DP's tattoo is the Biblical Samson & the lion.

 

[JennieM]

Rally for subway chokehold suspect Daniel Penny gets rowdy as supporters clash with protesters​

A rally for subway chokehold suspect Daniel Penny turned rowdy and resulted in several arrests on Wednesday when dozens of counter-protestors clashed with supporters of the former Marine.

The show of support was organized by Nassau County Executive Bruce Blakeman and brought about 60 flag-waving supporters of Penny to Collect Pond Park around 11 a.m., according to police.

But the supporters were met with about 30 demonstrators carrying signs reading “Justice for Jordan Neely” and shouting “Go back to Long Island.

[...]

Several of the counter-protesters were detained during the demonstration. It was not clear Wednesday night how many people were arrested and whether charges were filed.

Penny’s arrest in Neely’s death has divided the city, with supporters saying the 24-year-old vigilante jumped in to protect straphangers from an aggressive Neely, while detractors called Penny’s actions unwarranted and unnecessary.

[...]

“It’s sad for Mr. Neely, who was failed by a system who should have gotten him off the streets and gotten him the mental services that he deserved, and desperately needed,” Paladino said. “It’s sad for all New Yorkers who are continuously victimized by those like Mr. Neely. It’s sad for Mr. Penny who took the action to protect the people who were threatened on the train that day.

“The system failed Neely, and the system better not fail Penny,” she said. “He better get the free trial he deserves.”

The NYPD said about 60 supporters of accused subway chokehold suspect Daniel Penny were confronted by about 30 counter-protestors at a Manhattan rally on Wednesday, with at least three people getting arrested. Getty Images

About 30 counter-demonstrators showed at a rally organized by Nassau County Executive Bruce Blakeman on Wednesday in support of accused subway chokehold suspect Daniel Penny. Police said at least three were arrested. James Messerschmidt for NY Post

Rally for subway chokehold suspect Daniel Penny gets rowdy as supporters clash with protesters

A rally in support of accused subway chokehold suspect Daniel Penny, organized by Nassau County Executive Bruce Blakeman, ended in at least three arrests when counter-protesters chased with support…

nypost.com

 

[JennieM]

ITA. In the video, JN struggled for several minutes. That tells me that the chokehold wasn't that tight because a chokehold usually results in loss of consciousness in seconds, not minutes.

I'm wondering if JN lost consciousness and then choked on his own vomit? That could explain why the compression only CPR didn't work. I'm also still wondering why LE waited so long to call EMTs.
JMO

https://www.courts.ca.gov/documents/BTB25-PreConDV-05.pdf

The chokehold produced blood and mucus. And killed him.

I'd say the chokehold was pretty tight...

 

[everybodhi]

If a witness who was on the train says that they were afraid of Mr Neely because they had seen him act violently in the past and his current actions made them feel he was about do it again, would they be allowed to testify to that at trial?

I don’t know, the judge would decide. Then an appeals judge, probably.
There has to be a direct link to the previous crime for it to be used against a suspect charged criminally. Like if the current crime is a murder of a witness of a previous crime, for example. There is also the caveat that the previous crime must be a felony conviction, not just a charge.
Of course Neely is not the one on trial, he’s a dead victim, so the question becomes, does hundreds of years of law that protects criminal suspects and their right to presumed innocence also protect victims being blamed for their own homicide?

Rule 404. Character Evidence; Other Crimes, Wrongs, or Acts
BBM
Character evidence is of slight probative value and may be very prejudicial. It tends to distract the trier of fact from the main question of what actually happened on the particular occasion. It subtly permits the trier of fact to reward the good man to punish the bad man because of their respective characters despite what the evidence in the case shows actually happened.