NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest* #2

[MyBelle]

The chokehold produced blood and mucus. And killed him.

I'd say the chokehold was pretty tight...

BBM. Please provide a link to support your statement of fact. Thanks!

 

[JennieM]

BBM. Please provide a link to support your statement of fact. Thanks!

Killing of Jordan Neely - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I don’t know, the judge would decide. Then an appeals judge, probably.
There has to be a direct link to the previous crime for it to be used against a suspect charged criminally. Like if the current crime is a murder of a witness of a previous crime, for example. There is also the caveat that the previous crime must be a felony conviction, not just a charge.
Of course Neely is not the one on trial, he’s a dead victim, so the question becomes, does hundreds of years of law that protects criminal suspects and their right to presumed innocence also protect victims being blamed for their own homicide?

Rule 404. Character Evidence; Other Crimes, Wrongs, or Acts

“Character evidence is of slight probative value and may be very prejudicial. It tends to distract the trier of fact from the main question of what actually happened on the particular occasion. It subtly permits the trier of fact to reward the good man to punish the bad man because of their respective characters despite what the evidence in the case shows actually happened.”

I think that prohibiting a defendant from presenting evidence that supports a self defense claim is not fair. JMO.

 

[MyBelle]

Killing of Jordan Neely - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I asked for a link to support your medical claim that a chokehold produces blood and mucus. I don't believe it does.

JMO

 

[HmmMysterious]

BBM. Please provide a link to support your statement of fact. Thanks!

The medical examiner literally said Neely died from compression of the neck AKA a chokehold.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/04/us/new-york-subway-chokehold-death/index.html

 

[everybodhi]

BBM. Please provide a link to support your statement of fact. Thanks!

A witness gave the descriptive account of “blood and mucus” according to a link that someone previously provided in the thread, witness accounts can be questionable but I don’t think there’s any question that Neely died as a result of the chokehold. Even Penny’s own lawyer hasn’t disputed that.
Subway Rider Choked Homeless Man to Death, Medical Examiner Rules.

Mr. Neely died from compression to his neck as a result of the chokehold, according to Julie Bolcer, a spokeswoman for the medical examiner.

 

[HmmMysterious]

A witness gave the descriptive account of “blood and mucus” according to a link that someone previously provided in the thread, witness accounts can be questionable but I don’t think there’s any question that Neely died as a result of the chokehold. Even Penny’s own lawyer hasn’t disputed that.
Subway Rider Choked Homeless Man to Death, Medical Examiner Rules.

Mr. Neely died from compression to his neck as a result of the chokehold, according to Julie Bolcer, a spokeswoman for the medical examiner.

I was about to say that. A witness literally saw Neely cough up blood and mucus which no doubt was a result of the choke-hold.

 

[Ontario Mom]

The medical examiner literally said Neely died from compression of the neck AKA a chokehold.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/04/us/new-york-subway-chokehold-death/index.html

I don't dispute the ME.

But the OP asked for a link to medical documentation that a choke hold produces blood and mucus. I have no idea if does or not but I'd like to see a link to either document it, or discount it, either way. And not from wikipedia, where anyone can edit anything.

 

[everybodhi]

I think that prohibiting a defendant from presenting evidence that supports a self defense claim is not fair. JMO.

Yes, and many victims and/or their families feel it is unfair when a jury cannot hear evidence of a suspect’s previous murders, or rapes, or whatever, at trial.
But that is how our justice system has worked for centuries, so that convictions are based on evidence for the crime on trial, not influenced by past crimes.

 

[HmmMysterious]

I don't dispute the ME.

But the OP asked for a link to medical documentation that a choke hold produces blood and mucus. I have no idea if does or not but I'd like to see a link to either document it, or discount it, either way. And not from wikipedia, where anyone can edit anything.

I mean, Neely wasn't spitting out blood/mucus before the chokehold, but he certainly was after Daniel Penny relaxed his grip somewhat. So, I think that's enough evidence that a choke-hold does in fact do that

 

[Lilibet]

ITA. In the video, JN struggled for several minutes. That tells me that the chokehold wasn't that tight because a chokehold usually results in loss of consciousness in seconds, not minutes.

I'm wondering if JN lost consciousness and then choked on his own vomit? That could explain why the compression only CPR didn't work. I'm also still wondering why LE waited so long to call EMTs.
JMO

https://www.courts.ca.gov/documents/BTB25-PreConDV-05.pdf

There are two kinds of chokeholds. Only the blood choke results in loss of consciousness in seconds. The air choke can take longer and there can be struggling. I explained this on the last thread in the following post.

NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

Agree with all of the above-/ but think you meant to say “erratic”. LOL, yes totally!

www.websleuths.com

 

[MyBelle]

I think that prohibiting a defendant from presenting evidence that supports a self defense claim is not fair. JMO.

Rest assured, Penny has an excellent attorney!

I don't dispute the ME.

But the OP asked for a link to medical documentation that a choke hold produces blood and mucus. I have no idea if does or not but I'd like to see a link to either document it, or discount it, either way. And not from wikipedia, where anyone can edit anything.

imo, the more likely source of the blood and mucus was illegal drug use or if JN had another underlying medical condition. I think JN passed out and died because he choked on more blood and mucus and wasn't able to cough it up.

We haven't seen the autopsy report but I'm betting Penny's attorney has seen it. Bragg charged Penny because he was the one who applied the chokehold. What has to be proved at trial was whether Penny's actions were "reckless."

JMO

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Yes, and many victims and/or their families feel it is unfair when a jury cannot hear evidence of a suspect’s previous murders, or rapes, or whatever, at trial.
But that is how our justice system has worked for centuries, so that convictions are based on evidence for the crime on trial, not influenced by past crimes.

I have no problem with a defendants past unrelated crimes being excluded. That's obviously prejudicial.

 

[Lilibet]

Blood and mucous were observed at the time of the chokehold, so what else are you saying could cause this and why does it matter?

The chokehold produced blood and mucus. And killed him.

BBM. Please provide a link to support your statement of fact. Thanks!

When JennieM provided a link to the actual event you changed the question:

I asked for a link to support your medical claim that a chokehold produces blood and mucus. I don't believe it does.

 

[Lilibet]

I think that prohibiting a defendant from presenting evidence that supports a self defense claim is not fair. JMO.

If the self-defense claim has no connection to the victim’s previous crimes it is not supporting that claim. It is irrelevant.

JMO

 

[Deleted member 39678]

If the self-defense claim has no connection to the victim’s previous crimes it is not supporting that claim. It is irrelevant.

JMO

Yes, I agree.

 

[Sundog]

He might have attacked a young person.
Or he might have just kept riding the train day after day and attacked nobody at all, just annoyed them.

<modsnip: Off topic; not this case.>

Every adult rider on that subway car would likely know that murders had escalated in the subway. The linked article, above, gives the statistics of how many of these crimes have been committed in the last three years. Way more than in the five year period prior to 2020.

If you take the subway to work everyday, and listen to the news, which most adults do, then you know what is happening in NYC and on the subway.

So if somebody gets on the train and starts acting erratically and threatening people and yelling the threats that Neely was yelling, you would likely be terrified for your life.

You don't need to know this guy's background. You know something terrible has a high possibility of happening.

 

[Sundog]

We also do not know if JN was under the influence of drugs.

JMO

Have the toxicology reports been released yet?

 

[Ontario Mom]

I mean, Neely wasn't spitting out blood/mucus before the chokehold, but he certainly was after Daniel Penny relaxed his grip somewhat. So, I think that's enough evidence that a choke-hold does in fact do that

Actually no, it's not. If a medical professional states blood and mucus does not happen as a result of a choke-hold, then clearly the witness is or somehow mistaken. The point is, the claim has not been factually confirmed. If it can actually be confirmed then good, we have a medical professional confirming the witness was correct in what they say they saw.

<modsnipped: It is fact that it is in MSM and attributed to the witness>

 

[Lilibet]

If a witness who was on the train says that they were afraid of Mr Neely because they had seen him act violently in the past and his current actions made them feel he was about do it again, would they be allowed to testify to that at trial?

@RANCH I attempted to discuss this on the last thread in response to a link MyBelle posted. The exceptions to “character witnesses” regarding the victim are quite narrow. Hope this helps:

NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

He has already chosen to serve our country once, so who knows, he may decide to serve as LE in the future. But I am not sure why you are associating "vigilante" with LE or the military. I am not associating them. I am juxtaposing them.

www.websleuths.com