NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest* #2

[everybodhi]

I think that prohibiting a defendant from presenting evidence that supports a self defense claim is not fair. JMO.

Sure, I agree. But Neely’s previous charges are not the reason Penny killed him in a chokehold. He did not know him before the day he killed him.

 

[HmmMysterious]

Rest assured, Penny has an excellent attorney!

imo, the more likely source of the blood and mucus was illegal drug use or if JN had another underlying medical condition. I think JN passed out and died because he choked on more blood and mucus and wasn't able to cough it up.

We haven't seen the autopsy report but I'm betting Penny's attorney has seen it. Bragg charged Penny because he was the one who applied the chokehold. What has to be proved at trial was whether Penny's actions were "reckless."

JMO

Yes and Alvin Bragg is a brilliant district attorney.

You saying Jordan Neely coughed up blood/mucus due to drug abuse or medical condition reminded me of how Derek Chauvin's defenders claimed George Floyd instead died due to a heart condition or drugs. Idk why but that gave me chills

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Sure, I agree. But Neely’s previous charges are not the reason Penny killed him in a chokehold. He did not know him before the day he killed him.

I'm not saying that.

 

[caradana]

Yes and Alvin Bragg is a brilliant district attorney.

You saying Jordan Neely coughed up blood/mucus due to drug abuse or medical condition reminded me of how Derek Chauvin's defenders claimed George Floyd instead died due to a heart condition or drugs. Idk why but that gave me chills

Alvin Bragg is going to win politically no matter what happens now, which is a point in favor of yours regarding his brilliance. Play out the various scenarios in your mind: if the grand jury tosses this, ___. If they indict on manslaughter, ___. If they indict on lesser charges, ___. If they take maximum time and more distance is created between this incident and the emotional memory of the public, ___. If they deadlock and a new grand jury is called, ___. Put yourself in Bragg’s shoes and imagine each.

 

[10ofRods]

Wait, who said 30 seconds?! No one knows when the chokehold started. It could have been 1 minute 59 seconds before arriving at platform (although that doesn't leave any time for terrifying behavior), or 1 second before arriving platform (although would be... even more wild).

The same guy who is the journalist mentioned upthread - he's the guy he took the video. IIRC.

Eyewitness.

I agree that no one knows when it started, but several people are in the media stating what they think. That's what we go on here. I'm tired, at this point, going back through the thread, but everything I've read about this case is from WS. Here's something I found on my own (probably posted already):

Here’s how Jordan Neely’s fatal subway encounter took a deadly turn with a fatal chokehold

When homeless man Jordan Neely boarded an F train in Manhattan on Monday, no one onboard could have fathomed that his lifeless body would be lying before them.

nypost.com

Maybe that's where the 30 seconds comes from. OTOH, I do believe the journalist mentions it too.

If it was 1:59 before arrival, that means that Penny put the chokehold on after a few seconds of assessing threat. Are you saying that's a possibility? That Penny only waited 1-5 seconds until he approached Neely from behind?

I think all of the eyewitness statements need to be weighed against common sense and actual travel times between platforms.

1 second is absurd and no one I've read has said this. I posted my link earlier about the 30 seconds based on MSM posted here.

IMO. I never said anyone knows for sure - do you have a source that knows for sure?

Speculation as is most everything on this thread, at this time, IMO.

Truly interested in how you can conceive that the attack started 1 second after the train left the previous platform. Is this just to challenge others' accounts or do you have knowledge or a theory? No reason in trying to argue with other people's speculation (including Vazquez - I'll find his account again at some point, but it's been posted in several forms here).

IMO.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

@RANCH I attempted to discuss this on the last thread in response to a link MyBelle posted. The exceptions to “character witnesses” regarding the victim are quite narrow. Hope this helps:

NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

He has already chosen to serve our country once, so who knows, he may decide to serve as LE in the future. But I am not sure why you are associating "vigilante" with LE or the military. I am not associating them. I am juxtaposing them.

www.websleuths.com

If I'm following your previous post correctly a passenger on the train could have told Mr Penny that they had witnessed Mr Neely act in the same manner right before he assaulted someone in the past and that made them fearful for their safety.

And that witness would be allowed to testify before a jury about the prior act and how that made them afraid of harm. JMO.

 

[HmmMysterious]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed> ... I will take into consideration the chokehold alone caused his death without any other contributing factor.

 

[10ofRods]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

We're not jurors.

I appreciate it if readers here understand that we are WSers and not jurors. And here's the EYEWITNESS account about being 30 seconds from the next station, if my reading comprehension isn't jacked up:

‘I Wasn’t Thinking That Anybody Was Going to Die.’

Speaking with Juan Alberto Vasquez, the passenger who recorded the video of Jordan Neely on the F train

www.curbed.com

IMO. 30 seconds before the next stop. 1.5 minutes of observation by others of Neely's actions.

 

[MyBelle]

Have the toxicology reports been released yet?

At the time of Penny's arrest, his attorney said he had not yet seen the autopsy report. He probably has received it by now but I doubt the public will see it until trial.

JMO

 

[caradana]

We're not jurors.

I appreciate it if readers here understand that we are WSers and not jurors. And here's the EYEWITNESS account about being 30 seconds from the next station, if my reading comprehension isn't jacked up:

‘I Wasn’t Thinking That Anybody Was Going to Die.’

Speaking with Juan Alberto Vasquez, the passenger who recorded the video of Jordan Neely on the F train

www.curbed.com

IMO. 30 seconds before the next stop. 1.5 minutes of observation by others of Neely's actions.

That Curbed interview is terrific, evocative. The snap of the zipper hitting the floor when he threw down the jacket.

 

[Lilibet]

If I'm following your previous post correctly a passenger on the train could have told Mr Penny that they had witnessed Mr Neely act in the same manner right before he assaulted someone in the past and that made them fearful for their safety.

And that witness would be allowed to testify before a jury about the prior act and how that made them afraid of harm. JMO.

IANAL, and it’s admittedly a bit tricky to understand, but I understand that section as you do.

Quoting (c) (i) evidence of the victim’s reputation for violence and prior specific acts of violence by the victim against the defendant or others, if known to the defendant and reasonably related to the crime charged, is admissible on the issue of the defendant’s belief of the necessity of defending himself or herself or another person from impending harm;

 

[MyBelle]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed. There is no MSM or other source that specifies Neely was in fact under the influence of drugs at the time of the incident that resulted in his death>

iirc, Outreach Workers who had JN in their "Top 50" said JN abused K2. It is a very dangerous street drug:

Symptoms of a K2 or Spice overdose are eerily similar to that of a treacherous opioid overdose. As alluded to bove, these range from the physiological to the psychological. Such symptoms include:

• Vomiting
• Headache
• Chest pain
• Inability to speak or move
• Memory loss
• Numbness
• Elevated heart rate
• Unconsciousness
• Seizures
• Stroke
• Hallucinations
• Confusion
• Depersonalization
• Paranoia
• Anxiety attacks
• Violent or aggressive behavior
• Suicidal thoughts or actions

Each listed symptom may vary in intensity given the amount of Spice or K2 that was consumed. Witnesses describe an overdose on synthetic cannabinoids to be especially disturbing to watch. If you, a friend, or a family member is exhibiting any signs of an overdose, seek out medical attention right away. Spice and K2 overdose victims can be a danger to themselves and others if not treated.

K2 (Synthetic Marijuana) Overdose: Signs, Symptoms & Treatment

K2, Spice and other synthetic marijuana variants are hazardous, resulting in substance use disorders, psychotic episodes, overdoses and even death.

www.therecoveryvillage.com

 

[caradana]

Sharing a MSM article that I hope casts more light on this case. This was not an event in isolation; trained social services personnel, paid by NYC, were anticipating disaster: Jordan Neely Was on New York’s ‘Top 50’ List of Homeless People at Risk

I hope those who take the time to read that come back here and opine on the amount of social services care he received, the number of teams and interventions and trained mental-health care interactions he experienced regardless of the open warrants against him. The in-person accompaniment he got to a safe haven shelter in the Bronx. The zero-cost rehab stints he walked out of. Please read that and come back and opine as to how social services failed this man.

 

[Ontario Mom]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed. There is no MSM or other source that specifies Neely was in fact under the influence of drugs at the time of the incident that resulted in his death> iirc, Outreach Workers who had JN in their "Top 50" said JN abused K2. It is a very dangerous street drug:

Symptoms of a K2 or Spice overdose are eerily similar to that of a treacherous opioid overdose. As alluded to bove, these range from the physiological to the psychological. Such symptoms include:

• Vomiting
• Headache
• Chest pain
• Inability to speak or move
• Memory loss
• Numbness
• Elevated heart rate
• Unconsciousness
• Seizures
• Stroke
• Hallucinations
• Confusion
• Depersonalization
• Paranoia
• Anxiety attacks
• Violent or aggressive behavior
• Suicidal thoughts or actions

Each listed symptom may vary in intensity given the amount of Spice or K2 that was consumed. Witnesses describe an overdose on synthetic cannabinoids to be especially disturbing to watch. If you, a friend, or a family member is exhibiting any signs of an overdose, seek out medical attention right away. Spice and K2 overdose victims can be a danger to themselves and others if not treated.

K2 (Synthetic Marijuana) Overdose: Signs, Symptoms & Treatment

K2, Spice and other synthetic marijuana variants are hazardous, resulting in substance use disorders, psychotic episodes, overdoses and even death.

www.therecoveryvillage.com

Ugh. Gross.

 

[MyBelle]

Yes I read that. But the medical examiner didn't list that as the cause of death nor as a contributing factor

Please link the autopsy report. Thanks!

 

[mickey2942]

Sharing a MSM article that I hope casts more light on this case. This was not an event in isolation; trained social services personnel, paid by NYC, were anticipating disaster: Jordan Neely Was on New York’s ‘Top 50’ List of Homeless People at Risk

Sad. I wonder what the solution is...the issues of the "unhoused" in the United States is really getting to a tipping point. Unhoused people have become, as a group, more erratic and unstable. There are many threads on WS about mentally ill unhoused people who have done crimes against others. And, they had a long list of previous incidents. Just a matter of time...

 

[Lilibet]

The medical examiner said Mr Neely’s death was a homicide, not a suicide by drug or from natural causes. That is fact. What is not victim-friendly is opining that the victim was on drugs or had a medical condition that caused his death when there is no evidence.

The witness never said that the chokehold caused the blood and mucous to be expelled, just that it was expelled. So there really isn’t any reason to confirm medically that a chokehold *causes* blood and mucous to be expelled.

Here is what was said by a witness about blood and mucous:

Confusion, Shock, and the Bystander Effect on the Train Where Jordan Neely Was Killed - Hell Gate

"No one on the car was telling the Marine to stop."

hellgatenyc.com

At some point, they said, Penny relaxed his grip on Neely, and Neely coughed up a bright red wad of blood and mucus.

 

[caradana]

Sad. I wonder what the solution is...the issues of the "unhoused" in the United States is really getting to a tipping point. Unhoused people have become, as a group, more erratic and unstable. There are many threads on WS about mentally ill unhoused people who have done crimes against others. And, they had a long list of previous incidents. Just a matter of time...

I think you are right. Building on that - a contributor to what is unfolding here in NYC is that prior to COVID, there were volunteers staffing both city-run and nonprofit shelters. There were warmhearted volunteers helping 24/7 to manage these extremely difficult cases in safe spaces, to the extent that was possible and that the recipient of the services permitted it. COVID hit, those shelters shut down to prevent spread of pandemic, and they have never returned, nor have the volunteers. So many of these mentally-ill victims - and I do see them as victims, of the illness - moved to the warm, 24/7 open subways, and suddenly the visibility of this problem was tremendous as opposed to hidden away. I went years getting on the E train at 14th in a station that was clean and safe. If i attempted that right now, tonight, I’d be stepping over drugged-out bodies grabbing at my ankles.

 

[Lilibet]

Please link the autopsy report. Thanks!

I could not find a link to the actual autopsy report yet. The medical examiner was quoted on May 3:

Medical examiner rules Jordan Neely’s death a homicide after subway choking

The medical examiner determined that Jordan Neely’s cause of death was “compression of neck (chokehold)” and the manner of his death constituted a homicide on Wednesday evening.

nypost.com

The city medical examiner has ruled the death of a homeless man choked by a Marine on the subway earlier this week a homicide — as prosecutors mulled whether to pursue charges.

Jordan Neely’s cause of death was “compression of neck (chokehold)” and the manner constituted a homicide, the medical examiner determined Wednesday afternoon.

The medical examiner ordered additional testing after completing the initial autopsy to further examine the tissue on Neely’s neck, according to police sources.

 

[wary]

Yes I read that. But the medical examiner didn't list that as the cause of death nor as a contributing factor

Doesn’t it usually take multiple weeks for the toxicology report to come back?

just my MOO and memories