GUILTY OH Pike Co., 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #62

[molly1255]

wt

Was it money?

This is JMO, but I think for AW it may have been for money. I have this theory (my own pure speculation) that AW was not going to be provided for financially by the W estate after FW died. I wrote a post a while back about generation skipping trusts, and if anyone really needed one, IMO, FW and her husband really needed one with respect to the unique challenges posed by both Billy and AW.

JMO, I don't see Billy's parents thinking it would be wise to allow Billy to inherit a big chunk of anything. He failed to launch and at a minimum, he was irresponsible. And then there is AW. If they gave Billy a lot, he could die before AW, or she could divorce Billy after he received an inheritance and she could get her hands on FW's assets and blow through it all. When people who have estates (does not even have to be that large of an estate) have concerns like this, they sometimes solve them by providing their adult child with an income from the estate and that income ends when their child dies. If their child's spouse survives their child, not their problem. JMO, I think it might be possible GW4 and JW were going to come into some money, property or both when Billy died and the same may also have been true for the great-grandchildren after their fathers died.

The forged custody docs did two things, at least in AW's mind. They provided custody for JW in the event of HMR's death and they also provided that AW got custody of the children in the event of GW4 or JW's death. Note, they did not provide custody for Billy and AW, just AW. Jake got custody of the child after the murders. Why didn't AW destroy those documents? JMO, I don't think she was sloppy in not destroying those documents, but rather viewed them as "insurance" that she would get custody in the event GW4 and/or JW died. It would work like an annuity, guaranteed income for life, if she could maintain control of both her boys and her grandchildren and groom them to understand it was their job to provide for AW financially.

For JW, I don't think it was about money. I think it was because he lost control of HMR and he wanted to get even with her. JW has had nothing to do but think while he's been in jail and he's been removed from the influence of his mother for a long time. It might be possible he thought AW was on his side as she egged him on, and perhaps he's realized she was only out for herself.

I could be totally off, but this is what makes sense to me. And this is all JMO.

 

[Betty P]

Mod Note:
Posts focused on religious specific aspects or speculation of religion are against TOS. Where MSM contains reference to religion it can be quoted or referenced, but to dissect it or discuss it beyond that context is not permitted.

Thanks,
Tiff

Thanks, Tiff.

Just to clarify, in the discovery documents, the prosecution makes reference to the Wagner's obsession (or great fondness) for the movie "Boondock Saints".

Religious, vigilante movie clip part of evidence in Pike County massacre

Pike County murders: Movie’s use of gun silencer mirrors that of slain family, evidence shows

Defense in Pike County massacre asks to see slew of new evidence including ‘Boondock Saints’ clip

 

[Tiff23fr]

Thanks, Tiff.

Just to clarify, in the discovery documents, the prosecution makes reference to the Wagner's obsession (or great fondness) for the movie "Boondock Saints".

Religious, vigilante movie clip part of evidence in Pike County massacre

Pike County murders: Movie’s use of gun silencer mirrors that of slain family, evidence shows

Defense in Pike County massacre asks to see slew of new evidence including ‘Boondock Saints’ clip

This is fine @Betty P - The posts that triggered the note have been removed.

 

[sunshineray]

Mod Note:
Posts focused on religious specific aspects or speculation of religion are against TOS. Where MSM contains reference to religion it can be quoted or referenced, but to dissect it or discuss it beyond that context is not permitted.

Thanks,
Tiff

Hi Tiff, I'm confused and need a point in the proper direction. Are we allowed to discuss things in the court documents as long as other names are not mentioned, only the Wagners? So could I re-ask my questions in general terms without identifying the people, just crimes committed? I don't want to make a mistake and need clarification. Thanks

 

[Cool Cats]

wt

This is JMO, but I think for AW it may have been for money. I have this theory (my own pure speculation) that AW was not going to be provided for financially by the W estate after FW died. I wrote a post a while back about generation skipping trusts, and if anyone really needed one, IMO, FW and her husband really needed one with respect to the unique challenges posed by both Billy and AW.

JMO, I don't see Billy's parents thinking it would be wise to allow Billy to inherit a big chunk of anything. He failed to launch and at a minimum, he was irresponsible. And then there is AW. If they gave Billy a lot, he could die before AW, or she could divorce Billy after he received an inheritance and she could get her hands on FW's assets and blow through it all. When people who have estates (does not even have to be that large of an estate) have concerns like this, they sometimes solve them by providing their adult child with an income from the estate and that income ends when their child dies. If their child's spouse survives their child, not their problem. JMO, I think it might be possible GW4 and JW were going to come into some money, property or both when Billy died and the same may also have been true for the great-grandchildren after their fathers died.

The forged custody docs did two things, at least in AW's mind. They provided custody for JW in the event of HMR's death and they also provided that AW got custody of the children in the event of GW4 or JW's death. Note, they did not provide custody for Billy and AW, just AW. Jake got custody of the child after the murders. Why didn't AW destroy those documents? JMO, I don't think she was sloppy in not destroying those documents, but rather viewed them as "insurance" that she would get custody in the event GW4 and/or JW died. It would work like an annuity, guaranteed income for life, if she could maintain control of both her boys and her grandchildren and groom them to understand it was their job to provide for AW financially.

For JW, I don't think it was about money. I think it was because he lost control of HMR and he wanted to get even with her. JW has had nothing to do but think while he's been in jail and he's been removed from the influence of his mother for a long time. It might be possible he thought AW was on his side as she egged him on, and perhaps he's realized she was only out for herself.

I could be totally off, but this is what makes sense to me. And this is all JMO.

Wow great thoughts Molly.

I actually thought about all this too.

Billy has always had the security of FWF. Canepa said he is close to Robin. Robin is the executor someone said on here.

So when Robin owns the whole farm she will always support Billy and yes I am sure he gets paid to work on the farm. Was paid to work the farm.

Point is Angela is not in the same boat and she knew it. Billy could have said he wanted a divorce and then she would end up cut off from the money that he makes working on the farm.

So notice the shared bank accounts. When Jake and George put in their paychecks Angela had $ to support herself. This was a good system for her. Then taking full time care of any of their children is extra financial security for her.

They are happy supporting her because look at all she is helping them with
and on top of all that it is likely that there was SS coming in for the kids as well as State welfare money and food stamps etc....Jake said he wanted to sign his daughter up for Medicaid.

So for her to get set up like that for literally years and years because the kids were so young, puts her in a very secure financial situation, independent from Billy and FWF.

So it wasn't just about wanting to take care of the kids out of the goodness of her heart, no, the whole thing simply plays into her total lifestyle. A 50 year old with no career, no retirement, no investments of her own etc...Now she has her financial security.

I am %100 sure that financial concern played a part in the back of her mind but she made it look like it was all just for the kids, that she would raise them better than their "feckless" "inferior" mothers would. The blame is on the mothers and she comes to the rescue.

This is how she played it to her clan family.

This is what I think from looking at her lifestyle as much as we can and from the Other Acts and all the articles etc....

 

[Caylee Advocate]

Thanks, no rush....darnest thing, when I go Pike County court records and put in Edward J Wagner I get nothing. I even tried Butler County because that's where he's jailed, also nothing. I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

Jake is in Franklin County. Billy is in Butler.

 

[Tiff23fr]

Hi Tiff, I'm confused and need a point in the proper direction. Are we allowed to discuss things in the court documents as long as other names are not mentioned, only the Wagners? So could I re-ask my questions in general terms without identifying the people, just crimes committed? I don't want to make a mistake and need clarification. Thanks

The items in discovery can be discussed. The individuals named in the discovery outside of those charged in these crimes should not be discussed unless LE, MSM or Court Proceedings establish the connection to the case, or reveal clarity of why specific names are mentioned in the discovery.

At this time we have names associated with cell phones and we have names associated with certain records, etc. in the discovery. To discuss any of those names and why they may be listed would be pure speculation at this time and could not be cited as fact based on what has been released.

Hope that makes sense!

 

[molly1255]

Wow great thoughts Molly.

I actually thought about all this too.

Billy has always had the security of FWF. Canepa said he is close to Robin. Robin is the executor someone said on here.

So when Robin owns the whole farm she will always support Billy and yes I am sure he gets paid to work on the farm. Was paid to work the farm.

Point is Angela is not in the same boat and she knew it. Billy could have said he wanted a divorce and then she would end up cut off from the money that he makes working on the farm.

So notice the shared bank accounts. When Jake and George put in their paychecks Angela had $ to support herself. This was a good system for her. Then taking full time care of any of their children is extra financial security for her.

They are happy supporting her because look at all she is helping them with
and on top of all that it is likely that there was SS coming in for the kids as well as State welfare money and food stamps etc....Jake said he wanted to sign his daughter up for Medicaid.

So for her to get set up like that for literally years and years because the kids were so young, puts her in a very secure financial situation, independent from Billy and FWF.

So it wasn't just about wanting to take care of the kids out of the goodness of her heart, no, the whole thing simply plays into her total lifestyle. A 50 year old with no career, no retirement, no investments of her own etc...Now she has her financial security.

I am %100 sure that financial concern played a part in the back of her mind but she made it look like it was all just for the kids, that she would raise them better than their "feckless" "inferior" mothers would. The blame is on the mothers and she comes to the rescue.

This is how she played it to her clan family.

This is what I think from looking at her lifestyle as much as we can.

I agree. I think AW has always been on the outside looking in on the W's and she knew her financial situation was very precarious. What a horrible way to live, IMO, trying to pretend it is all about taking care of your family while ruining the lives of the women who got involved with your sons, to the point where it resulted in mass murder.

JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

I agree. I think AW has always been on the outside looking in on the W's and she knew her financial situation was very precarious. What a horrible way to live, IMO, trying to pretend it is all about taking care of your family while ruining the lives of the women who got involved with your sons, to the point where it resulted in mass murder.

JMO

Very good summation. Yup.

We have always posted on here like Angela is this overly devoted grandma doing everything she can to get control of the children. Like this is her only motive.

No, what we are talking about right now, money and her lifestyle, definitely plays a significant part in all of this. (How it looks to you and me anyway)

Money
Jealousy
Control
Threats
Murder

 

[Caylee Advocate]

Very good summation. Yup.

We have always posted on here like Angela is this overly devoted grandma doing everything she can to get control of the children. Like this is her only motive.

No, what we are talking about right now, money and her lifestyle, definitely plays a significant part in all of this. (How it looks to you and me anyway)

Money
Jealousy
Control
Threats
Murder

Those are a partial list, but good start IMO.

 

[pepper 34]

I agree.
Although I don't know what more.
I am thinking Jake and Angela had the custody issue. Billy and George probably had other issues or motivation. Since they are an all for the Wagner 4 Cult, the combined motivations were very strong.
Ad FW and RN into that. A long history of questionable activities, motivators there too. A generational thing.

What do you think it was?

I am one of those who can't see anything but an evil, smirky smile when JW admits he's guilty of HR's murder. He's only pretending to suppress that smile imo. I personally think he wanted everyone to see it and enjoyed doing it. Just to stick it to everyone who expects him to be scared and humbled at his position in life. I see a milder version of that same expression on his face when he admits to HG's murder, too. But, in his tiny mind, he had reason to hate them both; especially those two.

"See? But I didn't lose. I'm willingly admitting I'm guilty because I decided to admit it. What's more, I enjoyed killing those 2 "girls" and I'm glad I did it and I'd do it again. I'd love to do it again. I control everything. The whole R family and everyone else wants to see me be executed. Well, you're not going to see it happen. It's not going to happen because of me. I WIN and everyone else loses. Too bad."

So, for me... pure anger and HATE was one of JW's motives. I think probably AW shared that same hate for both those young women and, for at least AW, I'd add DR to her list of hates. I think hate was almost as big of a motivator for AW and JW as the custody issue. The custody and the hate are closely intertwined but each brought it's own satisfaction.

As for the BW, my opinion is that he hated CRSr... and even more so after being socked a good one by CRSr during their argument. I know nothing about their relationship but I'm just guessing that there was something about CRSr that rubbed BW's easy to bruise ego the wrong way. Maybe because CRSr wasn't afraid of or intimidated by BW. They had once been friends so CRSr might have known all BW's weak spots... knew he was just a loud mouth blow hard without any real bite. So, the ultimate revenge would be to show CRSr who was the real boss and take his grandbaby, too. (By sneaking up on CRSr like a snake in the grass while CRSr was unaware... big accomplishment, huh?) Well... see... he IS just a loud mouthed blow hard after all. CRSr was right! Jmo... total speculation.

GW: I don't see him having any real motivation to hate any of the R's or HG... but, he was in that position where family is supposed to back up family no matter what they get themselves into or how they plan to get what they want. There are rewards for sticking together with a family like that even if we would hope we'd have enough strength to run the other way if it were our family. But, that stuff begins so young in life, sometimes escape is impossible. Of course, I don't know these people from Adam but... just from what I've observed and read, etc... hate as a motivator for the 3 named seems likely, to me. Jmo.

One more motivator, imo. The deep seeded need to "WIN" by one upping anyone who threatens their "authority" to make all the decisions. Putting people in their place and domineering situations. Fragile egos masquerading as strong and scary people. "I'm bigger and badder than you. I get my way."

More simply: Controlling all situations without having to deal with other peoples' wishes, needs, desires, need for their own control in life... making their own decisions, etc. They want total control over everything. If someone objects and tries to exert themselves and have some say in matters for themselves... just knock them down and run over them.
Jmo

 

[molly1255]

Very good summation. Yup.

We have always posted on here like Angela is this overly devoted grandma doing everything she can to get control of the children. Like this is her only motive.

No, what we are talking about right now, money and her lifestyle, definitely plays a significant part in all of this. (How it looks to you and me anyway)

Money
Jealousy
Control
Threats
Murder

That pretty much sums it up to me!

 

[molly1255]

I am one of those who can't see anything but an evil, smirky smile when JW admits he's guilty of HR's murder. He's only pretending to suppress that smile imo. I personally think he wanted everyone to see it and enjoyed doing it. Just to stick it to everyone who expects him to be scared and humbled at his position in life. I see a milder version of that same expression on his face when he admits to HG's murder, too. But, in his tiny mind, he had reason to hate them both; especially those two.

"See? But I didn't lose. I'm willingly admitting I'm guilty because I decided to admit it. What's more, I enjoyed killing those 2 "girls" and I'm glad I did it and I'd do it again. I'd love to do it again. I control everything. The whole R family and everyone else wants to see me be executed. Well, you're not going to see it happen. It's not going to happen because of me. I WIN and everyone else loses. Too bad."

So, for me... pure anger and HATE was one of JW's motives. I think probably AW shared that same hate for both those young women and, for at least AW, I'd add DR to her list of hates. I think hate was almost as big of a motivator for AW and JW as the custody issue. The custody and the hate are closely intertwined but each brought it's own satisfaction.

As for the BW, my opinion is that he hated CRSr... and even more so after being socked a good one by CRSr during their argument. I know nothing about their relationship but I'm just guessing that there was something about CRSr that rubbed BW's easy to bruise ego the wrong way. Maybe because CRSr wasn't afraid of or intimidated by BW. They had once been friends so CRSr might have known all BW's weak spots... knew he was just a loud mouth blow hard without any real bite. So, the ultimate revenge would be to show CRSr who was the real boss and take his grandbaby, too. (By sneaking up on CRSr like a snake in the grass while CRSr was unaware... big accomplishment, huh?) Well... see... he IS just a loud mouthed blow hard after all. CRSr was right! Jmo... total speculation.

GW: I don't see him having any real motivation to hate any of the R's or HG... but, he was in that position where family is supposed to back up family no matter what they get themselves into or how they plan to get what they want. There are rewards for sticking together with a family like that even if we would hope we'd have enough strength to run the other way if it were our family. But, that stuff begins so young in life, sometimes escape is impossible. Of course, I don't know these people from Adam but... just from what I've observed and read, etc... hate as a motivator for the 3 named seems likely, to me. Jmo.

One more motivator, imo. The deep seeded need to "WIN" by one upping anyone who threatens their "authority" to make all the decisions. Putting people in their place and domineering situations. Fragile egos masquerading as strong and scary people. "I'm bigger and badder than you. I get my way."

More simply: Controlling all situations without having to deal with other peoples' wishes, needs, desires, need for their own control in life... making their own decisions, etc. They want total control over everything. If someone objects and tries to exert themselves and have some say in matters for themselves... just knock them down and run over them.
Jmo

I feel the same about JW. Pure anger and hate - not sorry that he did it, but wants to take control of his fate. As for AW, I also think she was full of hate, likely the most hate was reserved for DR and HMR - they were her competitors and they were in a position of power until they were murdered. It's JMO, but I think AW may have had a financial motivation as well. Agree on Billy and GW4.

Hoping we learn more as things move forward. I'm not sure we'll learn anything that we haven't collectively guessed about already, but we might.

 

[Cool Cats]

Those are a partial list, but good start IMO.

I get where your coming from, there was something serious going on with the Wagners and Chris. We now know Billy was at Chris's and most likely was the one who shot him, hit him. Something more than custody I wouldn't doubt, in regards to Billy and maybe even George.

 

[Johnny B Bad]

Does any of you Sleuthers know how much money the FWF has made (Legal) since Billy, GW4 and Jake has been put in jail,
With so many Bank Accounts tied to the Wagners looks very bad for money laundering also the LE made a statement in (Wagners Other Acts) that drug running was going on, so I ask of you Sleuthers that has been talking about Fredericka not leaving a income for Angela when she gone, to get money from the will when Angela gets older is just a fairly tale, it looks like FW was the brains, Billy and his boys was the (Leg Breakers) in their little mafia, I just wonder how much money Flying W Farm is making now, JMO

 

[Johnny B Bad]

Can anyone of you Sleuthers send me the wedding picture of George Wagner please

 

[molly1255]

I get where your coming from, there was something serious going on with the Wagners and Chris. We now know Billy was at Chris's and most likely was the one who shot him, hit him. Something more than custody I wouldn't doubt, in regards to Billy and maybe even George.

I may not be recalling this correctly, but didn't CR Sr. intervene when BW and JW were trying to bully HR into signing over custody docs? I took a break for a while and may have missed some of the details. Is that when the first fight occurred and CR Sr. cleaned Billy's clock?

Also, didn't CR Sr. put up quite a bit of money to get DR, HR, CR Jr. and the babies into the newer, bigger and much nicer home? IIRC, the new home happened just a few weeks before the murders. Though I don't believe it has ever officially been stated, I've always gone along with the opinion that the new home likely blew JW's only hope for possibly being able to get custody (legally).

If these things are all true, it would appear to me that CR Sr. had been one step of Billy, and he was smarter and stronger than Billy. Maybe Billy's male alpha ego couldn't take it that CR Sr. kept winning and the only way he could strike a win against CR Sr. was to sneak up on him in the middle of the night and use a gun? What a coward.

JMO

 

[molly1255]

Does any of you Sleuthers know how much money the FWF has made (Legal) since Billy, GW4 and Jake has been put in jail,
With so many Bank Accounts tied to the Wagners looks very bad for money laundering also the LE made a statement in (Wagners Other Acts) that drug running was going on, so I ask of you Sleuthers that has been talking about Fredericka not leaving a income for Angela when she gone, to get money from the will when Angela gets older is just a fairly tale, it looks like FW was the brains, Billy and his boys was the (Leg Breakers) in their little mafia, I just wonder how much money Flying W Farm is making now, JMO

I don't think there is any way for anyone to know how much FWF has made outside of very few, select people, and possibly LE. If it is relevant and it comes out later, maybe we will learn how much money has been made and the sources of income.

My theory is speculation on my behalf. I just don't think FW would feel an obligation to have her estate provide financially for her daughter-in-law. Just my opinion and based on what I've seen others do with their estates, especially when they have blood descendants - children, grandchildren and even great-grandchildren. What I stated doesn't have anything to do with possible money laundering or drug running.

 

[Cool Cats]

I may not be recalling this correctly, but didn't CR Sr. intervene when BW and JW were trying to bully HR into signing over custody docs? I took a break for a while and may have missed some of the details. Is that when the first fight occurred and CR Sr. cleaned Billy's clock?

Also, didn't CR Sr. put up quite a bit of money to get DR, HR, CR Jr. and the babies into the newer, bigger and much nicer home? IIRC, the new home happened just a few weeks before the murders. Though I don't believe it has ever officially been stated, I've always gone along with the opinion that the new home likely blew JW's only hope for possibly being able to get custody (legally).

If these things are all true, it would appear to me that CR Sr. had been one step of Billy, and he was smarter and stronger than Billy. Maybe Billy's male alpha ego couldn't take it that CR Sr. kept winning and the only way he could strike a win against CR Sr. was to sneak up on him in the middle of the night and use a gun? What a coward.

JMO

An article says Billy and Chris got into a physical fight 2 weeks before the murders.

The Other Acts Document says Billy pulled a gun on Chris. Wouldn't surprise me if Chris was winning the fight so Billy pulled the gun to get the upper hand.

One thing Chris had over the Wagners was the age-thing of when Hanna was 15 and Jake 19. I wonder if this explains why Jake never went to a Custody Hearing, only consulted an attorney.

The house was purchased when Hanna was pregnant with her 2nd. I think there just wasn't enough room anymore for another baby. They needed more room for the grandchildren that were now coming along, Frankie had 2 kids and it was time for different housing.

He put $30,000 down and mortgaged $30,000 using his land as collateral, Adams County land loan according to the records I saw years ago.

I don't think the house mattered to the Wagners. Why would Jake use the Rhodens crowded housing to say she's unfit when he never even had an initial Court Hearing about custody in the first place?

Besides, Hanna lived in 2 different places according to, I think it's in the Other Acts. Probably spent time back and forth with CH.

The Wagners for some reason didn't want to fight it out in court, wanted to strong arm them instead. Everyone wonders why they didn't just do what everyone does and take it to court.

We might now know why the Wagners couldn't report the grows, Billy was neck deep in his own drug running. Chris had too much on him and Billy doesn't seem like the type who lets people hold anything over him, not that Chris was holding anything over him.

With custody Chris would win, Billy lose. Billy hates losing.

Speculation

 

[Puzzles8]

wt

This is JMO, but I think for AW it may have been for money. I have this theory (my own pure speculation) that AW was not going to be provided for financially by the W estate after FW died. I wrote a post a while back about generation skipping trusts, and if anyone really needed one, IMO, FW and her husband really needed one with respect to the unique challenges posed by both Billy and AW.

JMO, I don't see Billy's parents thinking it would be wise to allow Billy to inherit a big chunk of anything. He failed to launch and at a minimum, he was irresponsible. And then there is AW. If they gave Billy a lot, he could die before AW, or she could divorce Billy after he received an inheritance and she could get her hands on FW's assets and blow through it all. When people who have estates (does not even have to be that large of an estate) have concerns like this, they sometimes solve them by providing their adult child with an income from the estate and that income ends when their child dies. If their child's spouse survives their child, not their problem. JMO, I think it might be possible GW4 and JW were going to come into some money, property or both when Billy died and the same may also have been true for the great-grandchildren after their fathers died.

The forged custody docs did two things, at least in AW's mind. They provided custody for JW in the event of HMR's death and they also provided that AW got custody of the children in the event of GW4 or JW's death. Note, they did not provide custody for Billy and AW, just AW. Jake got custody of the child after the murders. Why didn't AW destroy those documents? JMO, I don't think she was sloppy in not destroying those documents, but rather viewed them as "insurance" that she would get custody in the event GW4 and/or JW died. It would work like an annuity, guaranteed income for life, if she could maintain control of both her boys and her grandchildren and groom them to understand it was their job to provide for AW financially.

For JW, I don't think it was about money. I think it was because he lost control of HMR and he wanted to get even with her. JW has had nothing to do but think while he's been in jail and he's been removed from the influence of his mother for a long time. It might be possible he thought AW was on his side as she egged him on, and perhaps he's realized she was only out for herself.

I could be totally off, but this is what makes sense to me. And this is all JMO.

And I'm willing to bet Billy didn't know about the forged documents.

JMO, MOO