GUILTY OH Pike Co., 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #63

[Piffcat]

I speculate it has to do with one of two things, or both. All MO.
Defense may be checking into ancestry of one or more witnesses to see if they can use a relationship to the Rhoden/Manley Family to discredit that witness.
MO. I can think of one possible witness that could fit that description. He/she would be highly informative and credible for Prosecution. Defense try at this tactic won't work.
Or, and this is way out there, Defense may have been told of by a W and may be looking for some remote Wagner/Rhoden way back family relationship to try to show (some) W's would never agree to murder a relation. This is bizarre, but just think of some of the things the W's have said.
My limited experience with Ancestry is that they are very strict with DNA info.
Family Trees are more easily accessed by others.
Again, MO, but there are some very complicated and extensive Family Trees in Pike County and on UHR.

I think I know what ya mean and givea me a sickening feeling that g4 is going to use that as the starting point for the disgusting God playing actions they took. The movie they're mimicking sets a clear manual for "righteous: murder and how to accomplish it unprosecuted. If g4s attorney goes down thts line he should be disbarred and serve time with his client. Repugnant . Like a vile madlibs!!

 

[Covert Operative]

We might be misreading/misunderstanding the use of the word ancestry.
I was thinking Ancestry.com. Also possible DNA.
It may simply mean Ancestry.

Definition of ancestry
1: line of descent : LINEAGEespecially : honorable, noble, or aristocratic descent
2: persons initiating or comprising a line of descent : ANCESTORS

Family Tree. Relatives and relationships going back generations.
so "input ancestry" could mean creating the charts, the Family Tree
There is also mention of research - Probate courts and obituaries.
This fits with establishing Family Tree info.
But, Why?

It could but not sure why they would need to establish ancestry in that way, unless there is some question about who someone's parent is that is closely related to the case.

 

[Covert Operative]

We might be misreading/misunderstanding the use of the word ancestry.
I was thinking Ancestry.com. Also possible DNA.
It may simply mean Ancestry.

Definition of ancestry
1: line of descent : LINEAGEespecially : honorable, noble, or aristocratic descent
2: persons initiating or comprising a line of descent : ANCESTORS

Family Tree. Relatives and relationships going back generations.
so "input ancestry" could mean creating the charts, the Family Tree
There is also mention of research - Probate courts and obituaries.
This fits with establishing Family Tree info.
But, Why?

It could but not sure why they would need to establish ancestry in that way, unless there is some question about who someone's parent is that is closely related to the case.

We might be misreading/misunderstanding the use of the word ancestry.
I was thinking Ancestry.com. Also possible DNA.
It may simply mean Ancestry.

Definition of ancestry
1: line of descent : LINEAGEespecially : honorable, noble, or aristocratic descent
2: persons initiating or comprising a line of descent : ANCESTORS

Family Tree. Relatives and relationships going back generations.
so "input ancestry" could mean creating the charts, the Family Tree
There is also mention of research - Probate courts and obituaries.
This fits with establishing Family Tree info.
But, Why?

It's kind of lumped in with witness information, not sure if that means anything. Maybe a witness they are trying to find but cannot and are trying to find family members of theirs to contact to try and locate a witness? They may think someone is related to them, and once they find that family tree can work their way out to find living family?

 

[Caylee Advocate]

Ahhh, parentage comes to mind.

 

[almond]

Ahhh, parentage comes to mind.

You've just sent my mind down a rabbit hole. Things that make ya go Hmmmm.

 

[Caylee Advocate]

Rhoden family murders: Tony Rhoden still grieving in Pike County

View attachment 304634
this is Jake Wagner smiling during his guilty plea for Hannah Hazel Gilley, JMO[/QUOTE]


I have a quick fix.

1. I could be wrong, or I could be right.
2. You could be wrong, or you could be right.

Regardless of our differing opinions, I do respect all opinions.

 

[Caylee Advocate]

You've just sent my mind down a rabbit hole. Things that make ya go Hmmmm.

Don't go too far down that hole, it just might go pretty deep.

 

[almond]

Don't go too far down that hole, it just might go pretty deep.

I'm trying to remember maiden names, and old stories. Family trees can be very interesting.

 

[Ann99]

Don't go too far down that hole, it just might go pretty deep.

Pretty sure it is pretty deep.

 

[Betty P]

Pretty sure it is pretty deep.

But isn't it irrelevant to a murder trial and the hard evidence? Unless someone can place an alleged illegitimate relative at the crime scene, its just idle gossip about someone's family secrets.

I doubt the state and the judge would allow any of these trials to turn into a soap opera, especially if the purpose is to unfairly malign the victims.

 

[Ann99]

But isn't it irrelevant to a murder trial and the hard evidence? Unless someone can place an alleged illegitimate relative at the crime scene, its just idle gossip about someone's family secrets.

I doubt the state and the judge would allow any of these trials to turn into a soap opera, especially if the purpose is to unfairly malign the victims.

MO. This is more rambling than I intended. Here goes.

I agree - it depends upon the true investigative reason for this word ancestry. We really don't know what that is. Not necessarily Family Secrets, or to malign victims.

Defense/investigators purposely write these reports/invoices knowing they will be scrutinized by Prosecution (and people like us) so they make these reports as vague and clueless as possible. Defense does not want anyone to know where, exactly, they are going with this info/inquiry. Does it pertain to GW4, or a witness, or another long ago area resident? We don't know. The probate and obituary research adds to the questions.

As you point out, I dont think it will benefit the defense to pursue the investigative route of illegitimate relatives.
I don't think that is what they are looking for.
I wasn't thinking of maligning the victims, as that would be a huge mistake.
When I say pretty deep, I am referring only to my understanding of the complexity of generation upon generation upon generation, living in the same small area. Maybe add one more generation.
As has been said, it is traditional for people to have children very early in life, so a generation could be counted as approx. 20 years in this case.
Why would GW4 need to have a very specific 76 year old witness? idk.

Maybe something like DeWine said, or was it Reader (again my fuzzy memory) Hatfields and McCoys.
Hatfields and McCoys - legendary Family Feuds lasting generations. Generational gripes and grudges passed down thru the ages.
Father to Son, Mother to Daughter, cousin to cousin, and on and on, every possible combination.
I absolutely do not actually mean those specific Pike County families and neither did DeWine/Reader.
There are Hatfields and McCoys in Pike County, a coincidence.

The simple word ancestry has already led us down a deep rabbit hole. Ancestry.com, DNA, Family Trees. It could be any of those or something else altogether. Whatever it is, seems like a lot of billable time was spent on it.
And finally, as you state, hard evidence. Could any ancestry be considered hard evidence?
MO.

 

[Covert Operative]

MO. This is more rambling than I intended. Here goes.

I agree - it depends upon the true investigative reason for this word ancestry. We really don't know what that is. Not necessarily Family Secrets, or to malign victims.

Defense/investigators purposely write these reports/invoices knowing they will be scrutinized by Prosecution (and people like us) so they make these reports as vague and clueless as possible. Defense does not want anyone to know where, exactly, they are going with this info/inquiry. Does it pertain to GW4, or a witness, or another long ago area resident? We don't know. The probate and obituary research adds to the questions.

As you point out, I dont think it will benefit the defense to pursue the investigative route of illegitimate relatives.
I don't think that is what they are looking for.
I wasn't thinking of maligning the victims, as that would be a huge mistake.
When I say pretty deep, I am referring only to my understanding of the complexity of generation upon generation upon generation, living in the same small area. Maybe add one more generation.
As has been said, it is traditional for people to have children very early in life, so a generation could be counted as approx. 20 years in this case.
Why would GW4 need to have a very specific 76 year old witness? idk.

Maybe something like DeWine said, or was it Reader (again my fuzzy memory) Hatfields and McCoys.
Hatfields and McCoys - legendary Family Feuds lasting generations. Generational gripes and grudges passed down thru the ages.
Father to Son, Mother to Daughter, cousin to cousin, and on and on, every possible combination.
I absolutely do not actually mean those specific Pike County families and neither did DeWine/Reader.
There are Hatfields and McCoys in Pike County, a coincidence.

The simple word ancestry has already led us down a deep rabbit hole. Ancestry.com, DNA, Family Trees. It could be any of those or something else altogether. Whatever it is, seems like a lot of billable time was spent on it.
And finally, as you state, hard evidence. Could any ancestry be considered hard evidence?
MO.

I use obits and all the time to find if someone may be a family member of someone else. I have used probate information before. That whole expense request was mostly about witnesses. It seems more than likely ancestry would have something to do with trying to locate a witness/person or their family to me.

There may be more information they need on a witness and would like to talk to some family members of theirs. I doubt it's ancestry that would be used as evidence it would be the person that it led them to if it was actually viable information after they were found.

Could be they have DNA that they believe is from someone. If they find that person's family through ancestry, they can ask someone to give DNA voluntarily. Once you have several names you can work out from there and ask several people to give DNA if others refuse. Once they had a match they then could get an official test that could be used in court if need be.

There are several things it could be but probably is something totally different than anything I think.

 

[Ann99]

I use obits and all the time to find if someone may be a family member of someone else. I have used probate information before. That whole expense request was mostly about witnesses. It seems more than likely ancestry would have something to do with trying to locate a witness/person or their family to me.

There may be more information they need on a witness and would like to talk to some family members of theirs. I doubt it's ancestry that would be used as evidence it would be the person that it led them to if it was actually viable information after they were found.

Could be they have DNA that they believe is from someone. If they find that person's family through ancestry, they can ask someone to give DNA voluntarily. Once you have several names you can work out from there and ask several people to give DNA if others refuse. Once they had a match they then could get an official test that could be used in court if need be.

There are several things it could be but probably is something totally different than anything I think.

You're right, these expenses seem to pertain mostly to witnesses.

 

[Berrybell]

I'm trying to remember maiden names, and old stories. Family trees can be very interesting.

The Wags may have a family tree on Ancestry.com and entered HR's date of death prior to the murders. There is a Wagoner family tree on ancestry and does include HR, the tree is private.

 

[Cool Cats]

Does anyone know if psychologist interviews with defendants is like a “standard” thing to defendants charged as the Wagner’s are , but before JW changed his plea ? I don’t know, just wondering.

Yes it's standard protocol for defendants charged with death penalty specifications to have psych exams ordered by a Mitigation Expert on the defense team.

"A mitigation specialist is also an indispensable member of the defense team throughout all capital proceedings. Mitigation specialists possess clinical and information-gathering skills and training that most lawyers simply do not have. They have the time and the ability to elicit sensitive, embarrassing and often humiliating evidence (e.g., family sexual abuse) that the defendant may have never disclosed.

They have the clinical skills to recognize such things as congenital, mental or neurological conditions, to understand how these conditions may have affected the defendant’s development and behavior, and to identify the most appropriate experts to examine the defendant or testify on his behalf."

Mitigation in Capital Cases | Capital Punishment in Con…

MO. This is more rambling than I intended. Here goes.

I agree - it depends upon the true investigative reason for this word ancestry. We really don't know what that is. Not necessarily Family Secrets, or to malign victims.

Defense/investigators purposely write these reports/invoices knowing they will be scrutinized by Prosecution (and people like us) so they make these reports as vague and clueless as possible. Defense does not want anyone to know where, exactly, they are going with this info/inquiry. Does it pertain to GW4, or a witness, or another long ago area resident? We don't know. The probate and obituary research adds to the questions.

As you point out, I dont think it will benefit the defense to pursue the investigative route of illegitimate relatives.
I don't think that is what they are looking for.
I wasn't thinking of maligning the victims, as that would be a huge mistake.
When I say pretty deep, I am referring only to my understanding of the complexity of generation upon generation upon generation, living in the same small area. Maybe add one more generation.
As has been said, it is traditional for people to have children very early in life, so a generation could be counted as approx. 20 years in this case.
Why would GW4 need to have a very specific 76 year old witness? idk.

Maybe something like DeWine said, or was it Reader (again my fuzzy memory) Hatfields and McCoys.
Hatfields and McCoys - legendary Family Feuds lasting generations. Generational gripes and grudges passed down thru the ages.
Father to Son, Mother to Daughter, cousin to cousin, and on and on, every possible combination.
I absolutely do not actually mean those specific Pike County families and neither did DeWine/Reader.
There are Hatfields and McCoys in Pike County, a coincidence.

The simple word ancestry has already led us down a deep rabbit hole. Ancestry.com, DNA, Family Trees. It could be any of those or something else altogether. Whatever it is, seems like a lot of billable time was spent on it.
And finally, as you state, hard evidence. Could any ancestry be considered hard evidence?
MO.

These are links explaining how LE uses genealogy sites in their investigations of suspects:

The Ethics of Using Genealogy to Solve Crimes | Right …
https://righAnwmedicine.org/life/...

Genealogy databases and the future of criminal …
Genealogy databases and the future of criminal investigation

 

[Ann99]

The Wags may have a family tree on Ancestry.com and entered HR's date of death prior to the murders. There is a Wagoner family tree on ancestry and does include HR, the tree is private.

What? Seriously?
Hope all this expensive Defense research has found that piece of info.

 

[Tiff23fr]

**Moderator approved documents from Courtview**
-Expert Expense Payment Requests for G4-

I wonder if since this work appears to have been done prior to Jakes confession if it all essentially goes out the window at the end of the day.
It would seem the defense teams entire strategy would need to shift to try and discredit Jakes confession, rather than pulling random other “What about person A, or person B, or person C” into the realm of potential suspects.

Just my initial thought..

If they thought they had defense challenges before Jakes confession, the reality of what they are up against was turned upside down and amplified with the words “Guilty Your Honor”.

JMO

 

[Covert Operative]

I wonder if since this work appears to have been done prior to Jakes confession if it all essentially goes out the window at the end of the day.
It would seem the defense teams entire strategy would need to shift to try and discredit Jakes confession, rather than pulling random other “What about person A, or person B, or person C” into the realm of potential suspects.

Just my initial thought..

If they thought they had defense challenges before Jakes confession, the reality of what they are up against was turned upside down and amplified with the words “Guilty Your Honor”.

JMO

I agree their strategy has probably changed several times depending on discovery and their own investigations. After the confession it has probably changed again. It may even change again before trials.
There may be some things they can still use depending on what the evidence is. They do need to make their lies fit with the evidence somewhat.
The expert expense request after his confession going forward will probably be much more telling and interesting.

 

[LMDlong]

From what I have read JW had few expert expense requests. I did see one listed in January 2021 and one after his guilty plea. Just wondering what hie were for.

 

[LMDlong]

***Moderator approved documents from Court View***

-Expert Expense Payment Requests for AW.-

Pertaining to AW does anyone have any information or can guess what the birth and child chron is about?