GUILTY OH - Pike Co, 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #66

[Cool Cats]

Which has the largest caliber bullets, SKS .30 rifle or the .40 Glock?

I think these 2 guns were used at Chris Sr's and one was mentioned as having larger caliber bullets.

George is a Glock man yet his attorney said he didn't shoot anyone. Hard to believe with 2 different guns used at the 1st scene.

 

[OhioBlues]

Which has the largest caliber bullets, SKS .30 rifle or the .40 Glock?

I think these 2 guns were used at Chris Sr's and one was mentioned as having larger caliber bullets.

George is a Glock man yet his attorney said he didn't shoot anyone. Hard to believe with 2 different guns used at the 1st scene.

I believe the .40 Glock would be larger.

CC, Thank you for helping me!

 

[Cool Cats]

I believe the .40 Glock would be larger.

CC, Thank you for helping me!

Thanks for Glock info.

You really care about Justice for the families and have been committed to this thread for years, thank you for this. And thanks for your Timeline posts and helpful information you have brought through the years.

Takes a village.

 

[Ann99]

Does anyone have an opinion on this - Were the 3 Wagner men all together at each location?
Meaning were they never out of sight of one another?
Does each W really know for certain what the other W's did or did not do that night? Who can state for certain what GW4 did or did not do? They are all liars.
Wondering if the events that were relayed or recounted to AW when they returned home were totally accurate. Wouldn't each W have a different perspective or perception of events.
MO
I would rely on Jake's version of events to be more accurate than the following 3 only because of JW being first to talk.
Kind of like in a whispering game of telephone.
MOO

 

[Covert Operative]

We only just heard about it from reading the Motion, very shocking.

I would like to hear opinions on this. My opinion on it:

A .22 shell casing was found under the crib in Hanna's room and also a .22 shell casing was found in the middle of Frankie and HG's bed.

Jake was holding a .22 Walther Colt in the photo on his phone.

Also, Jake had the most connection to Hanna and her immediate family and so I believe the 5 he shot were Hanna, Chris Jr., Dana, HG, and Frankie.

Also, it appears HG and Dana were given "revenge" shots. 5 each. I believe this was Jake taking revenge towards both CG and HG for Hanna dating and having a baby with CG.
I also think Jake took revenge on Dana for all of her support of Hanna, taking her side so to speak.

So this leaves the 3 others, Gary, Chris Sr., Kenny, for the 6th shot.

It can't be Kenny because he was shot one time and if Jake did it it means Jake killed 6 people.

Gary was shot 3 times in the face and head with larger caliber bullets and if Jake shot him he would have had to use a different gun plus just one shot from Jake would have killed him.

This leaves Chris and we know Jake was there because of his shoe print and we know someone likely shot Chris from the porch because of the shell casing found on the porch, and someone shot his arm - a defensive wound, and someone shot him through a door and someone shot him in the torso, 9 shots altogether.

So with all these shots it stands to reason that Jake shot Chris. For some reason it appears that BCI, forensics likely, doesn't see Jake's shot at Chris to be a shot that killed him.

Perhaps Jake shot him in the arm and Billy or George or both shot him in the torso and head and those are considered the shots that killed him.

I think it is shocking that Jake could shoot a 6th victim but he is considered as having only killed 5 people.

This Case has twists and turns that come out of the blue and can really be perplexing. Especially coming from George's defense counsel.

There were 5-22 casings found at FR/HG crime scene and one unfired bullet in between them. I am guessing that happened because he had to insert another clip and a bullet popped out or the gun jammed and when he racked it to clear the jam the unfired bullet popped out.
It appears that the 5 casings were also found on the bed going by the illustration of the crime scene that was shown in G4 bond hearing.

 

[Cool Cats]

There were 5-22 casings found at FR/HG crime scene and one unfired bullet in between them. I am guessing that happened because he had to insert another clip and a bullet popped out or the gun jammed and when he racked it to clear the jam the unfired bullet popped out.
It appears that the 5 casings were also found on the bed going by the illustration of the crime scene that was shown in G4 bond hearing.

I don't remember 5 casings but I remember the one casing, not bullet, in the bed.

George Wagner request for bail denied after hearing reveals new details

Shell casing found in Frankie's and HG's bed in between where they were laying = Pause on 1:25:22 = Photo

The photo shows a blue gloved hand holding the casing, just the top is visible.

Scheiderer describes it as a:

"fired Remington 22 long rifle shell casing."

Scheiderer cross examination Bond Hearing:

Ballistic evidence at Chris Seniors found in living room, front porch, and bullet in dirt under house.

30 caliber rifle bullet fragments.
Metallic 7.62 cartridge - heavier weight - military style round.
Bullet fragments from a Glock 40 caliber firearm.
A casing from a 40 caliber cartridge.

Ballistic evidence at Dana's and Frankie's:

22 long rifle shell casing recovered under crib in Hanna's bedroom.
22 long rifle shell casing recovered in the middle of Frankie's and HG's bed.

@Covert Operative:

Another place in my notes about the well/cistern search it says it was a cartridge in Frankie's bed.

At Frankie's they found a 22 long rifle cartridge in bed between them.

What is the difference between a cartridge or a casing?

So was it a cartridge or a casing in the bed?

It was one or the other.

 

[Cool Cats]

I don't remember 5 casings but I remember the one casing, not bullet, in the bed.

George Wagner request for bail denied after hearing reveals new details

Shell casing found in Frankie's and HG's bed in between where they were laying = Pause on 1:25:22 = Photo

The photo shows a blue gloved hand holding the casing, just the top is visible.

Scheiderer describes it as a:

"fired Remington 22 long rifle shell casing."

Scheiderer cross examination Bond Hearing:

Ballistic evidence at Chris Seniors found in living room, front porch, and bullet in dirt under house.

30 caliber rifle bullet fragments.
Metallic 7.62 cartridge - heavier weight - military style round.
Bullet fragments from a Glock 40 caliber firearm.
A casing from a 40 caliber cartridge.

Ballistic evidence at Dana's and Frankie's:

22 long rifle shell casing recovered under crib in Hanna's bedroom.
22 long rifle shell casing recovered in the middle of Frankie's and HG's bed.

@Covert Operative:

Another place in my notes about the well/cistern search it says it was a cartridge in Frankie's bed.

At Frankie's they found a 22 long rifle cartridge in bed between them.

What is the difference between a cartridge or a casing?

So was it a cartridge or a casing in the bed?

It was one or the other.

The Wagner's well/cistern was described as having a shallow water basin with the water being black and murky, full of sludge, and they couldn't see through it.

The Wagner well/cistern was in their large barn. Here are photos of their large barn. Defiance Farms Photos

They searched the well/cistern on 2 different days. The first time they used a metal detector and found a rifle casing - during testimony it was also referred to as a metal jacket - that encased the actual bullet. It was 7.62 by 39 for a 30 caliber and was burnt, exposed to fire/heat of some sort. It matches the ballistics found at scene #1, Chris Sr's.

At Dana's they found a 22 shell casing under the crib in HR's bedroom. At Frankie's they found a 22 long rifle cartridge in bed between them.

Other items were picked up by the metal detector that couldn't be retrieved so they enlisted the Franklin Co. Sheriff's Dive Team. There were several metal items recovered unspecified and a glass bottle. Right away they found the "smoking gun" an aluminium maglite tube fashioned into a suppressor. The serial number showed it was manufactured in January 2016.

The maglite was submitted to ATF who confirmed it was a suppressor, it met government standards. It was fired at least one time, they could see a bullet strike inside. It contained some of the items (to build a suppressor) that the Wagner's purchased from February 2016 to April 2016.

 

[Covert Operative]

I don't remember 5 casings but I remember the one casing, not bullet, in the bed.

George Wagner request for bail denied after hearing reveals new details

Shell casing found in Frankie's and HG's bed in between where they were laying = Pause on 1:25:22 = Photo

The photo shows a blue gloved hand holding the casing, just the top is visible.

Scheiderer describes it as a:

"fired Remington 22 long rifle shell casing."

Scheiderer cross examination Bond Hearing:

Ballistic evidence at Chris Seniors found in living room, front porch, and bullet in dirt under house.

30 caliber rifle bullet fragments.
Metallic 7.62 cartridge - heavier weight - military style round.
Bullet fragments from a Glock 40 caliber firearm.
A casing from a 40 caliber cartridge.

Ballistic evidence at Dana's and Frankie's:

22 long rifle shell casing recovered under crib in Hanna's bedroom.
22 long rifle shell casing recovered in the middle of Frankie's and HG's bed.

@Covert Operative:

Another place in my notes about the well/cistern search it says it was a cartridge in Frankie's bed.

At Frankie's they found a 22 long rifle cartridge in bed between them.

What is the difference between a cartridge or a casing?

So was it a cartridge or a casing in the bed?

It was one or the other.

It was a Cartridge/bullet in between the that was not fired. There also were 5 other casings found at FR.

I don't remember 5 casings but I remember the one casing, not bullet, in the bed.

George Wagner request for bail denied after hearing reveals new details

Shell casing found in Frankie's and HG's bed in between where they were laying = Pause on 1:25:22 = Photo

The photo shows a blue gloved hand holding the casing, just the top is visible.

Scheiderer describes it as a:

"fired Remington 22 long rifle shell casing."

Scheiderer cross examination Bond Hearing:

Ballistic evidence at Chris Seniors found in living room, front porch, and bullet in dirt under house.

30 caliber rifle bullet fragments.
Metallic 7.62 cartridge - heavier weight - military style round.
Bullet fragments from a Glock 40 caliber firearm.
A casing from a 40 caliber cartridge.

Ballistic evidence at Dana's and Frankie's:

22 long rifle shell casing recovered under crib in Hanna's bedroom.
22 long rifle shell casing recovered in the middle of Frankie's and HG's bed.

@Covert Operative:

Another place in my notes about the well/cistern search it says it was a cartridge in Frankie's bed.

At Frankie's they found a 22 long rifle cartridge in bed between them.

What is the difference between a cartridge or a casing?

So was it a cartridge or a casing in the bed?

It was one or the other.

At Approx 1:24 in bond hearing the BCI agent says they located 5- 22 long rifle shell casings and a 22 long rifle cartridge at FR/HG. Cartridge is an unfired bullet. The one in the picture of the hand in blue glove is the unfired cartridge I believe found in between them. It shows the bottom of it. Also in the diagram/sketch of the crime scene at FR/HG it shows 5 tags that are numbered which I believe are the 5 shell casings that were found.
George Wagner request for bail denied after hearing reveals new details | WKRC (local12.com)

 

[Cool Cats]

It was a Cartridge/bullet in between the that was not fired. There also were 5 other casings found at FR.


At Approx 1:24 in bond hearing the BCI agent says they located 5- 22 long rifle shell casings and a 22 long rifle cartridge at FR/HG. Cartridge is an unfired bullet. The one in the picture of the hand in blue glove is the unfired cartridge I believe found in between them. It shows the bottom of it. Also in the diagram/sketch of the crime scene at FR/HG it shows 5 tags tags that are numbered which I believe are the 5 shell casings that were found.
George Wagner request for bail denied after hearing reveals new details | WKRC (local12.com)

Thanks! I will update my notes. I evidently missed this specific part. I am surprised as I didn't realize how sloppy Jake was.

8 shots at Frankie's and 5 casings left behind plus the cartridge. Sounds like his brass catcher wasn't working at Frankie's but was working at Dana's.

11 shots at Dana's and only 1 casing found, under the crib.

Enough to connect Jake's .22 to both crime scenes shooting all 5, and shot Chris Sr. or shot at him.

 

[Betty P]

Here's the thing this wasn't murder this was one sided gun battle. I can't see how how many p Ecole each **** shot or which bullet killed who. A reliable first person source does not exist- unless someone fled tge scene lived and we don't know. This level of minutia is soooo disrespectful to tge victims. On April 21 - 22 it was hell on earth on union Hill rd
A hell the wagners reveled in, celebrated. Commemorated with tattoos. And kept battle trophies. All the rest is irrelevant in reference to culpability of each ****.

Agree. All of those there that night who reveled in the bloodshed, the bloody massacre of innocent, sleeping people, deserve to spend the rest of their lives in prison, at minimum.

<ModSnip>

 

[Covert Operative]

Thanks! I will update my notes. I evidently missed this specific part. I am surprised as I didn't realize how sloppy Jake was.

8 shots at Frankie's and 5 casings left behind plus the cartridge. Sounds like his brass catcher wasn't working at Frankie's but was working at Dana's.

11 shots at Dana's and only 1 casing found, under the crib.

Enough to connect Jake's .22 to both crime scenes. I believe Jake shot the 5 at these 2 residences. And shot Chris Sr. one time.

Sounds like to me his gun jammed and while clearing the jam something happened with the home made catcher. He may have had to remove it to clear a jam and did not put it back or did put it back but it was not secure good. He would have been doing it in a hurry and probably in dim lighting. One escaped at DR also. Brass can escape from bought catchers on occasion so not hard to believe it can from home made ones.

 

[LMDlong]

Thanks CC

The Prior Acts Evidence, filed February 22, 2021,
was admitted into evidence before Angela pled guilty and confessed to other crimes the Wagners have committed.

Basically, Angela can now tell the Prosecution the details about the Other Acts Evidence. Fill in the blanks so to speak.

From Billy's Other Acts Evidence -
1.) Arson.
2.) Theft.
3.) Threatening Angela with a gun.
4.) Allegations that Defendant has killed/plotted/threatened to kill others before.
5.) Drug trafficking.
6.) Mortgage fraud.
7.) Threatening Chris Sr. with a gun within a week of homicides.
8.) Having others commit crimes to cover up the Wagner's crimes.
View attachment 315914

 

[Cool Cats]

Does anyone have an opinion on this - Were the 3 Wagner men all together at each location?
Meaning were they never out of sight of one another?
Does each W really know for certain what the other W's did or did not do that night? Who can state for certain what GW4 did or did not do? They are all liars.
Wondering if the events that were relayed or recounted to AW when they returned home were totally accurate. Wouldn't each W have a different perspective or perception of events.
MO
I would rely on Jake's version of events to be more accurate than the following 3 only because of JW being first to talk.
Kind of like in a whispering game of telephone.
MOO

Jake's testimony corroborated BCI's evidence. Angela's testimony matched Jake's version of events and the evidence. Angie did not read Jake's proffer/testimony so she couldn't deliberately lie to try to match what he said.

BCI and prosecutors had enough evidence to tell if Jake was being truthful and had Jake's testimony to compare to Angela's testimony.

It's the classic "leave out things" that only the murderer would know. Jake and Angie knew things that only the murderers could know - that only the 4 Wagners would know. Information not revealed to the public.

As for crime scenes it looks like all 3 were at Chris Sr's. At least 2 different guns were used at that scene plus they have both the left shoeprints of George and Jake.

I think it is clear to Jake who shot Gary and who shot Chris Sr. When they got back home and told Angela about it there was no reason for them to lie to her, thus, she would also know who shot who. No doubt they gave an elaborate description about it.

Angie had custody papers drawn up in case there was a shootout and most definitely would have wanted details of how it happened, especially how it happened at Chris Sr's because he and Gary were awake.

I think Angela and Jake gave accurate testimony.

Another consideration is that too much is at stake for Jake and Angela to lie. Not worth it to lie to BCI and prosecutors then have to face Judge Deering who would toss out their deals for lying. The judge won't put up with that, he warned Angie.

She needs to be warned as she ignored his order not to have contact with her family and she blatantly ignored him and had dozens of phone contacts including an outrageous 3-way phone call between herself, Jake, and her brother CN who set it up. I believe she manipulated him into setting it up, not the other way around.

 

[Antimony]

In a .22 firearm with a silencer, subsonic ammo is used to reduce the sound further. Subsonic ammo is not as powerful at a regular .22 long rifle cartridge and may have not had the recoil power to reliably operate the slide on the Walther 1911 22 pistol. The slide going back operated the extractor, the ejector and chambers the next round in addition it the hammer to make the firearm ready for the next shot.

 

[Betty P]

In a .22 firearm with a silencer, subsonic ammo is used to reduce the sound further. Subsonic ammo is not as powerful at a regular .22 long rifle cartridge and may have not had the recoil power to reliably operate the slide on the Walther 1911 22 pistol. The slide going back operated the extractor, the ejector and chambers the next round in addition it the hammer to make the firearm ready for the next shot.

And what is this telling us?

 

[Tiff23fr]

Courtesy Note:
WS will be down beginning at 10 PM EST tonight for the installation of a new server.

 

[Betty P]

Jake's testimony corroborated BCI's evidence. Angela's testimony matched Jake's version of events and the evidence. Angie did not read Jake's proffer/testimony so she couldn't deliberately lie to try to match what he said.

It's possible. It's also possible the state is allowing them to spin out some plot to get George 4 off, with the intention of trapping them in their own lies later on.

It's possible all of Jake's statements do align with the BCI's evidence, but I'm not 100% sure they do, nor do they have to for them to be able to send all 4 Wagners to Death Row or to prison for life.

If there's one big flaw the Wagners have always had, it's thinking they're smarter and better than everyone else. The state has proven them wrong every time.
The state is smarter than ALL of the Wagners.

George 4 and Billy's attorneys should be very, very careful in trying to pull a fast one on the prosecution.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Don't know what we would do on here without you.

And who else would buy my swamp property? Only you! LOL ...

Ha!!! you got burned on that. I got several alligator bags, a whole set of alligator luggage and at least five pairs of alligator boots......and that doesn't even count the snake skin boots.......plus all that great gumbo and jambalaya. LOL!!!!!

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Pike County Massacre Suspect Seeks Dismissal of Murder Charges and Death Penalty Case, Says Prosecutors Know He Didn’t Kill Anymore

It doesn't say that he killed any less either. lol

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Who was the 6th person that JW supposedly shot but didn't kill? (Sorry, I am behind.)

We are not sure OB. He never named the five he killed or the sixth he shot AFAIK. They are claiming George shot none and Angie stayed home, so that means Billy killed three.

I know you have been working hard and we all appreciate it OB. Thank you.

JMO