Oscar Pistorius Defense

[kittychi]

I have used Scahdenfreude for a year now here and elsewhere, and have explained my use numerous times, incoporating it in my theory with the driving events.

Well I guess it just didn't click with me until just now.

 

[PPKik]

RBBM
Me too! Me too! For me, it's the biggest and best evidence against OP's account. In his version the earlier bangs are the gunshots (at about 3:12) that no witness hears - Johnson hears screaming at 3:12, witnesses who testified over hearing earlier bangs never say 3:12 - it's simply shortly after 3, he then runs all over the house screaming and shouting, and eventually breaks the door down at 3:17 (the State's gunshots). Then calls Stander to help lift her at 3:19, though he hasn't called netcare yet, and then he doesn't need Stander to help lift her.

But...before he carries her down he also runs downstairs to open the front door and then goes back upstairs, and damages the bedroom door he'd already gone through to get downstairs.

For Oscar's version to be true, Reeva would have to be alive, even if brain dead, for much longer than what is probable. (In the State's version, with gunshots at 3:17, Reeva is on the staircase at approximately 3:22 IIRC. By Oscar's version, he shot Reeva about 10 minutes ago.)

BBM

Thanks BritsKate! I forgot to mention he ran downstairs and opened the door and then had some sort of problem with his bedroom door!

For me, the ear witness and the PT and DT's timeline are confusing and almost irrelevant to my list and what you added, as far as when Reeva died.

I'm not even sure that it matters that much, as I think it will always be in contention.

What matters the most to me (and usually small details are very important if I can know them), is not necessarily knowing all the small details, which maybe we can't, but the bigger picture.

Was Reeva awake when he heard noises (window) and thought he heard an intruder? Even if he thought she was safely in bed, it makes no sense that she never answered him once, according to him.

This is a big problem for me, but doesn't convince me this killing was a premeditated murder of Reeva, herself, yet.

I do think he is lying to make it appear that he did everything he should have done, by claiming he shouted at her to call police, get down, or whatever he said.

As of now, I can't find any motive for him to shoot her in cold blood.

Several days ago a poster, Forensics, summarized what I am leaning towards. OP wanted to shoot someone. There really is something wrong there, but he wanted to use his gun to shoot someone and he did.

I think his lying is to cover this up, something which no one would ever admit after being charged with a premeditated murder. I think the "someone" was what, in his paranoid state, he wanted to believe was a criminal, a burglar, someone doing him harm that he could eliminate.

[Forensics, I hope I interpreted what you said correctly. That is what I agreed with. That he wanted to shoot someone.]

ETA: Reading what you wrote below, BritsKate, I feel I need to clarify what I wrote. I realize the State doesn't need to prove motive. I just need to try to understand, even if they were fighting, why he would want to kill her. What would be his motive to literally chase her down and kill her?

I look forward to reading what you linked. Thanks!

 

[BritsKate]

Just to throw this out there too...reading the Burger thread I'm reminded that both Burger and Johnson describe hearing a man yell for help after hearing a woman scream for help before the second set of bangs at 3:17.

The woman is described as fearful by both while the man is flat and monotone. Truly chilling.

 

[BritsKate]

This is an incredibly insightful, well-written article full of info on SA law, worth another read:

In the public arena there’s been much talk that Oscar couldn’t possibly be guilty of murder because the State hasn’t proved motive. However, an important fact has been overlooked; the State doesn’t have to prove motive to get a conviction! While motive is nice to know the State can still show that, for example, as a competent gun owner he shot fully understanding the consequences of his actions and with full intent to kill. Proving why he formed this intention is his motive and not essential for conviction.

It’s also relevant to note here that intent can be a decision made a few minutes before he shot, it need not mean he sat up plotting it weeks in advance.

http://everyafricanwoman.com/?p=1608

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Does anyone doubt that Roux will call the Standers? [As I do.]

While I am sure they will give Roux a great direct. If Nel does an honest and tough and inclusive cross, I see it sealing OP's fate, not helping him. Moo.

I do have doubts as well but it would be a big question mark if they are not called by the defence imo..

Mr Stipp mentioned in his testimony that when he arrived , Stander was out in the driveway across the BMW and was on his cellphone .. I've been wondering who he was talking at such an emergency time? we know that it was not the ambulance or the police..
it could be his wife who arrived later on or was he making calls for OP from his own phone ? keeps on puzzling me..

 

[TorisMom003]

When someone relies on public image and perception to earn them sponsors that pay for their lifestyle and their entrance fees/etc for the races they run, then the real threat of losing those sponsors due to legal issues is a real concern.

OP already had the lawsuit hanging over his head, the one where he countersued. There was also the Tashas incident that he had friends help cover up. Then the incident with police officers where he was vocally very upset that they had the nerve to touch his gun after his friend was pulled over for speeding. OP also had publicly berated Reeva where others could hear him. Then the boat crash incident where bottles of alcohol were found on board. Reeva was speaking the next day about domestic abuse and her own dealings with it.

Eventually sponsors, fans, the public at large are going to take notice of all of these things that OP has done. Sponsors will drop him, fans will fade away to root for someone else, the public at large will no longer think of him as South Africa's "golden boy". The money dries up, the fame fades away only to be replaced by bad thoughts of his behavior instead, "friends" begin to tell the truth about OP's true behavior and his wrong doings. Reeva was the straw that broke the camels back, IMO. She was in the wrong place, at the wrong time. She expected him to handle any of his setbacks as an adult male, instead of babying him. Reeva was simply the target of all of his frustrations, the one that he took everything out on.

I wish that Reeva had not allowed OP to talk her into changing her plans that night, that she had gone on home as she had planned. Instead of us dealing with the murder of Reeva, we would be dealing with OP shooting up his own home in a fit of rage, where no one was injured much less killed.

MOO

 

[lisasalinger]

Lisa, first, Thank You for your incredibly marvelous blog. It is truly amazing. I don't know how you do it. I refer to it constantly.

I think the Op version you talk about here is the last one he told. I remember him saying on direct that, when he got into the WC, She wasn't breathing. Sob, sob, howl". Then court adjourned for the day because OP's shirt was wet or something.

I remember him saying all of the following at some time or another. I sat over her.(This was probably where the idea that he sat on the toilet seat came from.) / I pulled her onto me. I sat on my bum, holding her, crying./ I don't now how long I sat there./ I heard her struggling to breath.
Then what you said.

BBM Agreed, there is no sign that he scuffled around in there and no sign that
he sat anywhere. And don't forget that he supposedly knocked the plank from the door into the WC. It should have been there at this time in his version, but of course, I couldn't have been.

I wrote a long post about it in thread #32 , page 20, post 496. I don't know if you saw it. I am going to repost it in the thread about the doors, along with part 2 (not posted yet).

I read something on your blog about that plank being where it should be, if he has knocked it inwards, but couldn't find it again when I looked for it. I would appreciate your opinion on this. I have thought a lot about it.

I did not include the plank in my graphic because it was getting kind of crowded in there, and I didn't want to confuse the issue. Here is a depiction of just the final position/per OP, with the magazine rack in the right corner, and the plank laying as found by the police-lying on top of the blood trail.

View attachment 43081

Hey homegirl :seeya:

I'll be honest, I haven't thought much about that wood plank, but just read your post on thread #32 and it's a very compelling question!

It never dawned on me that the plank is longer than the toilet room itself. My immediate thought is...

What if that piece did fall inward and was propped up. So obviously not flat on the ground but half propped up by the wall. When OP finally gets the whole door open, that propped up piece would have fallen to the ground and could have flipped over.

But... then I see what you are saying, that there are drag marks in the blood and the board is on top of those marks leading you to believe that the board wasn't there when her body was taken out. Maybe OP moved it since it was in his way of getting her out and just kicked it out of the way afterwards.

Gotta think about this some more.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Maybe we should make a list for what he said he doesn't remember during the cross. could highlight some crucial points.. But I have to go and listen again and check Lisa's amazing blog..
Anyone remembering to which questions he said so ?

 

[TorisMom003]

Maybe we should make a list for what he said he doesn't remember during the cross. could highlight some crucial points.. But I have to go and listen again ..
Anyone remembering to which questions he said so ?

That would be a mighty long list.

Some of the things that I can recall he said he didn't remember:
What he said to Netcare,
When he turned on the bathroom light,


My mind is fried right now and I can't think of any more.

 

[jay-jay]

Yes, that as my point, provably true.

All that you have there, I do not think occurred--or is provable (unless tea was found in her stomach).

Then that would be the be the only one provably true.

The only other things I can think of was:

- that he carried her downstairs (he clearly did, and it was witnessed)

- made a number of phonecalls (these are documented, so are provably true), the first one of which was to Stander (24 seconds), and the second one being to NetCare (66 seconds), the next to Baba/security (9 seconds), then voicemail (7 seconds), then an incoming one from Baba/security. What was said during those calls is yet to be proven though.

That's about it, really.

 

[TorisMom003]

Hey homegirl :seeya:

I'll be honest, I haven't thought much about that wood plank, but just read your post on thread #32 and it's a very compelling question!

It never dawned on me that the plank is longer than the toilet room itself. My immediate thought is...

What if that piece did fall inward and was propped up. So obviously not flat on the ground but half propped up by the wall. When OP finally gets the whole door open, that propped up piece would have fallen to the ground and could have flipped over.

But... then I see what you are saying, that there are drag marks in the blood and the board is on top of those marks leading you to believe that the board wasn't there when her body was taken out. Maybe OP moved it since it was in his way of getting her out and just kicked it out of the way afterwards.

Gotta think about this some more.

Lisa, you have great photos on your blog. There is one that shows the bathroom/toilet room floor with the drag marks really well. I can't seem to get them to attach to my posts here so I hope you know which one I mean. Anyway, does it look to you like the marks in the blood are from Reeva's hair instead of her clothing? If so, that would mean to me that OP did in fact drag Reeva out feet first.

ETA: The marks on Reeva's back, could this be from her back hitting the magazine rack as OP is pulling her to the bathroom? If he did drag her out feet first that is.

 

[jay-jay]

Is that in the BH affi?

Again my Q is only about what is in the BH affi and/or trial Plea.
(It's not about all events of the 12th, 13th, or 14th. Only waht's in the 2 affidvaits.

Oops .. sorry .. I missed that bit! :blushing:

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Thanks, shane13. Reeva's friend G said she always got the same "Good night" text from Reeva, but not the night of the 13th; it was different.
We don't know what she sent that night do we? I am assuming, I hope correctly, that the night before, while Reeva was at OP's house, she did text her normal text to G.

Reeva's last message to Myers

"Hi guys, I’m too tired. It’s too far to drive. I’m sleeping at Oscar’s tonight. See you tomorrow."

http://www.news.com.au/world/reeva-...pistoriuss-house/story-fndir2ev-1226586799797

 

[DebinGA]

I think OP mentioned finally feeling safe enough to turn on the bathroom light when he returned there having run around the bedroom looking for Reeva and donned his legs.

 

[Ncl1968]

Is it just me or is it suspicious that the toilet door panels where all ripped off the door to me they contain the bullet holes (evidence ) and black bags and rope was at the ready.... Hmmm seems to me like he intended to hide not only the body but the panels then without a crime reported a good clean up could be done.. I think he planned to do just that but was talked out of it or the good Dr turned up and prevented it....

 

[jay-jay]

So, so far we have
1. he killed/shot her,
2. the 4 bullet holes.
3. I inflicted the fatal gun shot wounds to Reeva.
4. I am an adult male, a professional athlete.
5. She had given me a present for Valentines Day.
6 I phoned John Stander

Could possibly add from Charging Document: Reeva was unarmed and inside the toilet with the door closed.

How about:

1. the date of the documents (BS* and PE ), and
2. his name and signature :floorlaugh:


* I love that the abbreviation for that also stand for something else, and is pretty much what his BS is ... BS!

 

[lisasalinger]

Lisa, you have great photos on your blog. There is one that shows the bathroom/toilet room floor with the drag marks really well. I can't seem to get them to attach to my posts here so I hope you know which one I mean. Anyway, does it look to you like the marks in the blood are from Reeva's hair instead of her clothing? If so, that would mean to me that OP did in fact drag Reeva out feet first.

ETA: The marks on Reeva's back, could this be from her back hitting the magazine rack as OP is pulling her to the bathroom? If he did drag her out feet first that is.

I think the first two pics probably show the drag marks the best.

I think it's a good possibility that it was Reeva's hair dragging on the floor rather than her entire body. You can also see some smearing on the left side of the toilet bowl in pic #3, also likely from her hair as he lifted her head off the bowl.

It's gruesome to discuss, so my apologies in advance... but if he had just grabbed her feet and dragged her out, her head would have slammed on the floor. The blood pool next to the toilet is pretty much undisturbed. There would have been an awful lot of smearing if her head hit the ground like that and was then dragged out.

I tend to think that he just lifted her up an inch or two and her hair dragged along the ground as he moved her. There may have been some partial dragging of the lower limbs.

I could be totally wrong on that, just my interpretation.

Also, to address the question about whether or not her right arm was up on top of the toilet bowl... looking at the right side of the bowl, I see where some have pointed out that the edge is clean of blood. I tend to think that was just her upper body resting there. Picture her head and neck on the bowl with her right shoulder and very upper part of her right arm resting against that area, as the rest of her right arm dangles to the ground, causing the dripping of the blood in that area. That's how I see it.

Homegirl, if you are still playing around with your 3D program, any chance you can depict the body like I described it above? If not, no worries at all. I'm sure it's a lot of work to do that stuff. Thanks for those previous pics! I like having the visual.

 

[lisasalinger]

Lisa, you have great photos on your blog. There is one that shows the bathroom/toilet room floor with the drag marks really well. I can't seem to get them to attach to my posts here so I hope you know which one I mean. Anyway, does it look to you like the marks in the blood are from Reeva's hair instead of her clothing? If so, that would mean to me that OP did in fact drag Reeva out feet first.

ETA: The marks on Reeva's back, could this be from her back hitting the magazine rack as OP is pulling her to the bathroom? If he did drag her out feet first that is.

BBM... No to your question about the rack. To use a Nel-ism, that is not reasonably, possibly believable :giggle:

First, if she hit the rack that hard to cause that extent of contusion, the rack would have moved. The blood pooling does not indicate that the rack moved.

Second, simply moving that body, I don't believe, would be nearly enough force to cause contusions that bad on her back.

Third, if her upper body hit that rack in a hard manner, there would have been a lot more blood on/in it from her head wound/bloody hair.

 

[jay-jay]

This is a good post because it has highlighted to me another thing in OP's cross examination that is contradictory .
If he told Dr Stipp that he had shot and KILLED Reeva why would he think he had the right to critise Dr Stipps expertise and why pretend to stem the bleeding and try and keep airways open .
Is it definitely in testimony "I shot her ,I killed her " ?
This also indicates that he likely believed she was dead the minute he saw her so the reason why he didn't have blood on the base of his socks was because he never really went near her but literally just dragged her out of the toilet probably by her feet. Hope this is not the case as it is such an awful thought and the actions of a very cold person.
I really can't see any other explanation for the lack of blood on the socks ,anyone else ?

Just going back to this post again, as I found this bit while looking through the BS and the PE for shane's list .. it's actually from the BS ..

"I battled to get her out of the toilet and pulled her into the bathroom."

.. that does sound very much to me like he dragged her out by her feet, although that's not quite how he put it in his testimony in the stand, but that's very much what it sounds like in his BS.

 

[shane13]

Is it just me or is it suspicious that the toilet door panels where all ripped off the door to me they contain the bullet holes (evidence ) and black bags and rope was at the ready.... Hmmm seems to me like he intended to hide not only the body but the panels then without a crime reported a good clean up could be done.. I think he planned to do just that but was talked out of it or the good Dr turned up and prevented it....

BBM
Truly fascinating speculation.
thank you.