Oscar Pistorius Defense

[jay-jay]

The only other things I can think of was:

- that he carried her downstairs (he clearly did, and it was witnessed)

- made a number of phonecalls (these are documented, so are provably true), the first one of which was to Stander (24 seconds), and the second one being to NetCare (66 seconds), the next to Baba/security (9 seconds), then voicemail (7 seconds), then an incoming one from Baba/security. What was said during those calls is yet to be proven though.

That's about it, really.

Have just checked that one .. it was in his BS "I carried her downstairs in order to take her to the hospital" .. the first bit about carrying her downstairs is proven because of witnesses, but the second part of it cannot be verified that that was actually what he was going to do with Reeva/Reeva's body.

He does say also in his BS that he called Stander and then Netcare, so I suppose you could include those because the call log verified that he did call those numbers in that sequence after the shooting, although the reasons he states he called those numbers cannot be proven or verified (not yet, anyway .. I'm still hoping there is a recording to Netcare somewhere!)

 

[shane13]

People:
When I say absolutely proven, I mean other than in a call log if that log was taken off the 5th phone--which has zero chain of custody. Should have been disallowed into evidence according to standard rules of jurisprudence for centuries.

So I cannot put such into my list.
Thank you.
Shane13--Ebeereman (sp?) what that S.A. poster called me.

 

[DebinGA]

Personally, I find the many things OP lied about much more interesting than the few things he didn't.

This article lists some of his "I can't remember"s:

http://leadership.ng/news/366218/pistorius-cant-remember-key-aspects-murder-trial-evidence

 

[jay-jay]

People:
When I say absolutely proven, I mean other than in a call log if that log was taken off the 5th phone--which has zero chain of custody. Should have been disallowed into evidence according to standard rules of jurisprudence for centuries.

So I cannot put such into my list.
Thank you.
Shane13--Ebeereman (sp?) what that S.A. poster called me.

Well, scrub the calls then but 'carried her downstairs' should go on the list.

 

[Forensics]

Does it have to be provable Shane? As many have said, some of the things may have happened the night before and he integrated them into his Valentine Eve cover-up story.

This is what I think really happened the night before so was easy for OP to remember details:

1. Went to bed quietly at 10:00 pm after watching TV and Reeva doing Yoga
2. Tea before bed
3. "Baba can't you sleep"
4. Reeva may have even felt loved

And to add to this, Reeva's phone indicates that she was texting at 3am on that morning...so she was awake to ask him point no 3.

 

[shane13]

Is it just me or is it suspicious that the toilet door panels where all ripped off the door to me they contain the bullet holes (evidence ) and black bags and rope was at the ready.... Hmmm seems to me like he intended to hide not only the body but the panels then without a crime reported a good clean up could be done.. I think he planned to do just that but was talked out of it or the good Dr turned up and prevented it....

Along with your good speculation, I have asked people to ponder the following.
Since we know that crime scene removal occurred for the .38 ammo and the 5th phone, what else might have been removed that has not been admitted to?

I have speculated that maybe another gun (for that ammo) was removed, and you can think on that. [Just specualtion.]

When things don't make sense, it could be because something was successfully removed that we do not know about. Just a possiiblity given that this case runs deep.

But you are right.
In addition to the possibility that OP may have been trying to remove Reeva's body when Stipp and Baba et al arrived, he may have been trying to remove other evidence--like parts of the door that had bullet holes in them. (Good thinking.)

Someone else here speculated (last week) that Ms Stander may have aided in removing the 5th phone. After all it does seem from her statement about protecting him, that that may be why OP called them first (if not only) given the 5th phone--that Roux in Court first raised in response at BH when WO Botha said OP did not call for ambulance. Curiously then at BH if Roux was saying that the 5th phone they told the world then was taken from the crime scene--why did they not immediately hand it to the Judge or Pros.?

No DT kept it for another 11 days or so we learned at trial (whose video has been excised from all court videos), after claiming it would give aid to OP's claims.

As I wrote here before, if the call sequence is in doubt between Mr Baba vs OP/that call log, I will take Mr Baba any day of the week.

 

[patCee]

Revised list of what can be proven. I've extended your request Shane

1. I am an adult male, a professional athlete.
2. I own immovable assets in SA
3. She had given me a present for Valentines Day.
4. I approached the bathroom armed with firearm.
5. he killed/shot her,
6. the 4 bullet holes.
7. I inflicted the fatal gun shot wounds to Reeva.
8. Ladders were outside in the garden.
9. I did not attempt to flee
10. Stander arrived at the house.
11. Dr Stipp arrived at the house.

 

[Really?]

BBM
Truly fascinating speculation.
thank you.

Isay no way......how could he possibly think toget away with that......they were dating . He would be first on the chain of questioning.

People in the neighborhood were bound to hear those shots.

He was the one who mucked up the crime scene. Boom

Hi OP.....:jail:

 

[shane13]

1. I am an adult male, a professional athlete.
2. I own immovable assets in SA
3. She had given me a present for Valentines Day.
4. I approached the bathroom armed with firearm.
5. he killed/shot her,
6. the 4 bullet holes.
7. I inflicted the fatal gun shot wounds to Reeva.
8. Ladders were outside in the garden.
9. I did not attempt to flee
10. Stander arrived at the house.
11. Dr Stipp arrived at the house.

I don't know about #9, what Oscar was in the process of doing when Baba and Stipp arrived is open to specualtion. E.g.,it is possible with engine running he may have attempted to flee both for his future and to get rid of the body. Just specualtion but I'd remove #9.

 

[shane13]

Isay no way......how could he possibly think toget away with that......they were dating . He would be first on the chain of questioning.

People in the neighborhood were bound to hear those shots.

He was the one who mucked up the crime scene. Boom

Hi OP.....:jail:

I've got news for you.
He still may get away with everything, by the time Appeals are all done etc.
As I've written here numerous times, find ALL you can about why "officially" all charges were dropped for bro Carl's CH or vehicular manslaughter equivalent elsewhere, charge.

I predict some higher Court will end up using "police malfeasance' when those higher cops who did things wrong may be the same ones who handed over 2 crucial items of evidence that were illegally taken from the crime scene.

 

[patCee]

1. I am an adult male, a professional athlete.
2. I own immovable assets in SA
3. She had given me a present for Valentines Day.
4. I approached the bathroom armed with firearm.
5. he killed/shot her,
6. the 4 bullet holes.
7. I inflicted the fatal gun shot wounds to Reeva.
8. Ladders were outside in the garden.
9. Stander arrived at the house.
10. Dr Stipp arrived at the house.

 

[shane13]

1. I am an adult male, a professional athlete.
2. I own immovable assets in SA
3. She had given me a present for Valentines Day.
4. I approached the bathroom armed with firearm.
5. he killed/shot her,
6. the 4 bullet holes.
7. I inflicted the fatal gun shot wounds to Reeva.
8. Ladders were outside in the garden.
9. Stander arrived at the house.
10. Dr Stipp arrived at the house.

Thank you Pat!

 

[shane13]

1. I am an adult male, a professional athlete.
2. I own immovable assets in SA
3. She had given me a present for Valentines Day.
4. I approached the bathroom armed with firearm.
5. he killed/shot her,
6. the 4 bullet holes.
7. I inflicted the fatal gun shot wounds to Reeva.
8. Ladders were outside in the garden.
9. Stander arrived at the house.
10. Dr Stipp arrived at the house.

And don't forget, as someone reminds here that WO Botha also informed that Carl and Oldwage were also in the process of trying to remove that memory stick that refers to OP's assets etc. So this is a third item.

Media and Roux have labeled Botha as the scapegoat for all things.
If not for him, crime scene removal of the 2 (or is it 3 or?) items might have been successful.

In interview in YOU magazine, he basically has dared Roux and Co to call him as a witness.

Is that not called a whistleblower?

Could be much fireworks to come still...

 

[sleuth-d-]

I think the first two pics probably show the drag marks the best.

I think it's a good possibility that it was Reeva's hair dragging on the floor rather than her entire body. You can also see some smearing on the left side of the toilet bowl in pic #3, also likely from her hair as he lifted her head off the bowl.

It's gruesome to discuss, so my apologies in advance... but if he had just grabbed her feet and dragged her out, her head would have slammed on the floor. The blood pool next to the toilet is pretty much undisturbed. There would have been an awful lot of smearing if her head hit the ground like that and was then dragged out.

I tend to think that he just lifted her up an inch or two and her hair dragged along the ground as he moved her. There may have been some partial dragging of the lower limbs.

I could be totally wrong on that, just my interpretation.

Also, to address the question about whether or not her right arm was up on top of the toilet bowl... looking at the right side of the bowl, I see where some have pointed out that the edge is clean of blood. I tend to think that was just her upper body resting there. Picture her head and neck on the bowl with her right shoulder and very upper part of her right arm resting against that area, as the rest of her right arm dangles to the ground, causing the dripping of the blood in that area. That's how I see it.

Homegirl, if you are still playing around with your 3D program, any chance you can depict the body like I described it above? If not, no worries at all. I'm sure it's a lot of work to do that stuff. Thanks for those previous pics! I like having the visual.

your images showing the position of the 'knocked in' door panel further highlights the op lie about the position [back right corner he said] of the magazine rack... he just can't stop himself lying.

 

[sorrell skye]

Yes it does when you have true experts. I have heard and read so much conflicting testimony, I am not sure what to believe about so-called arterial spurts, etc. I thought there was some debate on the blood spatter and what it meant. [See Michael Peterson trial "blood experts," e.g.]

I know the heart can keep beating after brain death, but seeing Reeva's head wound, I find it impossible to believe she was alive for the amount of time it took OP to go to the balcony, scream for help, put on his prosthetic legs, go back to the bathroom, beat in the toilet door, reach in to get the key, open the door with the key, check Reeva, sit with Reeva, pick her up, and walk through the bedroom door to the stairs, then carry her downstairs.

In the Defense scenario, OP fired the gunshots shortly after 3:00 a.m.

In this scenario, I agree that it would not be at all likely that Reeva would have still been barely alive as OP carried her down the stairs. In the DT's scenario (gunshots close to 3:00 a.m.) Reeva would have been deceased before OP had attempted to lift her from the toilet room after 'sitting with her for 5 minutes'.

I don't believe that OP sat with Reeva for 5 minutes before he pulled her out of the toilet room (I think that is a flat-out lie on his part in an effort to use up time from when he wants the Court to believe he discovered Reeva's body to when he was witnessed carrying her body down the stairs), nor do I believe that he shot her shortly after 3:00 a.m.

I believe OP shot and killed Reeva around 3:15 - 3:17 a.m (depending on whose clock is used). I've chosen to refer to phone logs, as I believe these are the most accurate times.

According to phone logs & testimony, Dr. Stipp was calling estate security at 3:15:51 a.m. immediately after the 2nd set of 'bangs' that he identified as gunshots.

I believe this is closest to the time when OP shot and killed Reeva.

In this scenario, OP has enough time to put on his prosthetic legs, pry the toilet door panels off, call Stander and then Netcare as he goes downstairs to unlock the front door, return upstairs to carry Reeva downstairs as Stander, Clarice, Baba, and another security guard arrive to witness him on the landing of the stairs. According to phone logs, Stander, Clarice, Baba, and another security guard arrived at OP's house at about 3:22:05 a.m.

Phone log times can be found at Lisa's (juror13) blog:

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/25/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-15-state-rests/

IMO, OP shooting Reeva at about 3:15:51 is supported by Col. van der Nest's testimony regarding blood spatter analysis and arterial spurts on the stairway walls and the sofa in the downstairs lounge.

OP's claim that he sat with Reeva for 5 minutes is very difficult for me to believe. IMO, it's not plausible that in an emergency situation anyone would sit with a gravely wounded loved one for 5 minutes before seeking medical assistance. As I stated above, I think he said this in an effort to whittle away at the DT's timeframe in which they claim the gunshots occurred close to 3:00 a.m.

The DT's claim that OP shot Reeva close to/shortly after 3:00 a.m. - the time of the first set of 'bangs' - is not supported, IMO, by forensic evidence. The blood spatter evidence of arterial spurts on the stairway walls and downstairs lounge sofa do not illustrate a scenario in which Reeva was shot & gravely wounded 15-20 minutes prior to OP carrying her downstairs.

I think it's logical to conclude that OP shot Reeva moments before Dr. Stipp called estate security at 3:15:51.

 

[kittychi]

And don't forget, as someone reminds here that WO Botha also informed that Carl and Oldwage were also in the process of trying to remove that memory stick that refers to OP's assets etc. So this is a third item.

Media and Roux have labeled Botha as the scapegoat for all things.
If not for him, crime scene removal of the 2 (or is it 3 or?) items might have been successful.

In interview in YOU magazine, he basically has dared Roux and Co to call him as a witness.

Is that not called a whistleblower?

Could be much fireworks to come still...

I wonder why Prosecution did not call him; did they think his credibility was shot already? Or....deep collusion among PT / Police, etc. i.e. "we don't need no stinkin' whistle blowers!"

 

[sleuth-d-]

Just going back to this post again, as I found this bit while looking through the BS and the PE for shane's list .. it's actually from the BS ..

"I battled to get her out of the toilet and pulled her into the bathroom."

.. that does sound very much to me like he dragged her out by her feet, although that's not quite how he put it in his testimony in the stand, but that's very much what it sounds like in his BS.

that is v well spotted. certainly not the language you would use if you picked someone up.

not good to visualise though, unfortunately.

 

[shane13]

I wonder why Prosecution did not call him; did they think his credibility was shot already? Or....deep collusion among PT / Police, etc. i.e. "we don't need no stinkin' whistle blowers!"

Well Nel also did not call those who took over from Botha:
Capt van Arndt is it? He was seated next to Nel throughout.
And further back Lt. General Vinesh Moonoo was there everyday hunched over listening intently.
So I guess parsimony ruled the day for Nel, and he thought he had enough, esp. given that he knew Roux would have to call OP.

 

[Forensics]

Maybe we should make a list for what he said he doesn't remember during the cross. could highlight some crucial points.. But I have to go and listen again and check Lisa's amazing blog..
Anyone remembering to which questions he said so ?

OP CANNOT REMEMBER......

*Turning the alarm off before he carried Reeva down the stairs.
*Telling Stipp that he had mistaken Reeva for an intruder.
*If he or the police first climbed up the stairs at the crime scene.
*Firing four shots.
*Having his finger on the trigger at Tasha's restaurant when he was
handling it.
*What happened to the ejected bullet/cartridge at the Tasha shooting incident.
*His Iphone code.
*Which friend he called for help after being shot at whilst he was driving.
*Speaking to security immediately after the shooting.
*Why he told Security everything was fine (after he was phoned back by them).
*The location of the duvet.
*When he turned the light on in the bathroom.
*Which switch his fan was plugged into.
*]The song they were listening from the Kendrick Lamar album whilst in the car ("***** don't kill my vibe).
*When his father put the ammunition in the safe.
*Much about the trip to Vaal he and Samantha drove down to meet friends (gun through sunroof incident).
*Where his firearm was when he was on the boat (incident above).
*If the firearm was 'one-up' while they were on the boat.
*When he last saw his father (courtesy of Shane13)

....there are much more I am sure. My apologies if anyone has posted these before.

 

[sleuth-d-]

In the Defense scenario, OP fired the gunshots shortly after 3:00 a.m.

In this scenario, I agree that it would not be at all likely that Reeva would have still been barely alive as OP carried her down the stairs. In the DT's scenario (gunshots close to 3:00 a.m.) Reeva would have been deceased before OP had attempted to lift her from the toilet room after 'sitting with her for 5 minutes'.

I don't believe that OP sat with Reeva for 5 minutes before he pulled her out of the toilet room (I think that is a flat-out lie on his part in an effort to use up time from when he wants the Court to believe he discovered Reeva's body to when he was witnessed carrying her body down the stairs), nor do I believe that he shot her shortly after 3:00 a.m.

I believe OP shot and killed Reeva around 3:15 - 3:17 a.m (depending on whose clock is used). I've chosen to refer to phone logs, as I believe these are the most accurate times.

According to phone logs & testimony, Dr. Stipp was calling estate security at 3:15:51 a.m. immediately after the 2nd set of 'bangs' that he identified as gunshots.

I believe this is closest to the time when OP shot and killed Reeva.

In this scenario, OP has enough time to put on his prosthetic legs, pry the toilet door panels off, call Stander and then Netcare as he goes downstairs to unlock the front door, return upstairs to carry Reeva downstairs as Stander, Clarice, Baba, and another security guard arrive to witness him on the landing of the stairs. According to phone logs, Stander, Clarice, Baba, and another security guard arrived at OP's house at about 3:22:05 a.m.

Phone log times can be found at Lisa's (juror13) blog:

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/25/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-15-state-rests/

IMO, OP shooting Reeva at about 3:15:51 is supported by Col. van der Nest's testimony regarding blood spatter analysis and arterial spurts on the stairway walls and the sofa in the downstairs lounge.

OP's claim that he sat with Reeva for 5 minutes is very difficult for me to believe. IMO, it's not plausible that in an emergency situation anyone would sit with a gravely wounded loved one for 5 minutes before seeking medical assistance. As I stated above, I think he said this in an effort to whittle away at the DT's timeframe in which they claim the gunshots occurred close to 3:00 a.m.

The DT's claim that OP shot Reeva close to/shortly after 3:00 a.m. - the time of the first set of 'bangs' - is not supported, IMO, by forensic evidence. The blood spatter evidence of arterial spurts on the stairway walls and downstairs lounge sofa do not illustrate a scenario in which Reeva was shot & gravely wounded 15-20 minutes prior to OP carrying her downstairs.

I think it's logical to conclude that OP shot Reeva moments before Dr. Stipp called estate security at 3:15:51.

stipp made two calls to security, one that didn't get through followed by a dead call to 10111, and a second call to security after the bangs he heard. do you have times for both?

ms burger had a time of 3:16:xx and a call duration of 58 seconds for her call to security... and she heard the gunshots after this call.

placing the gunshots at 3:16:58+

[just saying ]