Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #63 ~ the appeal~

[aftermath]

I guess we need to wait for the online version so we can see the context before deciding what to make of it. But yes, the defense did offer a sequence of events that the court accepted, whereas the state didn't really do that. And the sentence after is rather odd: 'This whilst she never uttered a word. is conceivably more devastating.'

Really odd, yes - why the use of the overly emotive 'devastating'? Is the state trying to say that Masipa's acceptance that it is reasonably possible that Reeva didn't vocalise any sound before being shot, is a failure? Somehow inept?inappropriate?

If so, I don't see how... It is entirely possible that she was stood at the door listening and not making any verbal noise so as not to draw attention to herself...

 

[GR_Turner]

Really odd, yes - why the use of the overly emotive 'devastating'? Is the state trying to say that Masipa's acceptance that it is reasonably possible that Reeva didn't vocalise any sound before being shot, is a failure? Somehow inept?inappropriate?

If so, I don't see how... It is entirely possible that she was stood at the door listening and not making any verbal noise so as not to draw attention to herself...

Perhaps we're reading this out of context? Though on the face of it I agree with you - the state often used similar language in the trial as though to influence the court on an emotional level I thought. Still, it doesn't mean their case is poor, though it does make me wonder why they should need to put things in this way if they had a strong case. Indeed, on the face of it, they are throwing everything into the mix in the hope that something will stick - another familiar approach - though again, not one that need necessarily fail.

 

[cottonweaver]

Mandy Weiner's tweets:
https://twitter.com/MandyWiener

"Reeva Steenkamp's parents have released a statement ahead of her birthday on Wednesday and the athlete's release on Friday.
....parents say they appreciate interest shown by media and messages from public but won't be granting interviews this week.
'We are still struggling with coming to terms with losing our precious daughter Reeva.
Her loss is felt even more this week as we would have celebrated her 32nd birthday on 19 August
We want to continue to honour Reeva’s memory and will commemorate her birthday by focusing on her foundation.
parents say they will be celebrating her life, what she stood for and the joy she brought into so many lives."

 

[cottonweaver]

Filling in time until we get to see the whole 43 pages of the appeal document !

"The State says Masipa adopted a fragmented approach when dealing with circumstantial evidence and excluded certain portions of it.

Documents submitted specifically referred to the location of the fans, the duvet and the denim jeans in the main bedroom.

Prosecutors argue the defence team failed to contest the veracity of the photos and the evidence of two police witnesses.

It says, if the court accepts that certain photos of the athlete’s bedroom are a true reflection of the scene as discovered by the police, the court should then reject Pistorius’s version entirely."

http://ewn.co.za/2015/08/17/Masipa-...vidence?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

 

[ApplesInMyBra]

Filling in time until we get to see the whole 43 pages of the appeal document !



http://ewn.co.za/2015/08/17/Masipa-...vidence?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Yes it looks like the State is specifically calling out Photo #55. From Karyn Maughan's Twitter screenshots:
"The State argued, and repeats the argument here that if photograph 55 is a true reflection of the scene discovered by Col van Rensburg, the Court a quo would have had no option but to reject the Respondent's version as untruthful and not possibly true."

See paragraph 22

 

[cottonweaver]

Indeed Apples- photo 55

It's notable Masipa only referred to the crime scene photos once in her judgment thus

"I may add that there were a number of issues which arose during the course of the trial. These issues took a lot of the court’s time and correctly so, as at the time such issues were important to the parties. The issues concerned were inter alia whether or not the police contaminated the scene, the length of the extension cord that went missing from the accused’s bedroom and the authenticity of photographs of items depicted in various exhibits. Having regard to the evidence as a whole this court is of the view that these issues have now
paled into significance when one has regard to the rest of the evidence. The reason for that view will become clearer later in this judgment...."

And the Appeal head's quote her comment ( BIB2) - but we can only see the Appeal extract.

Her comments, such as BIB1, would be amusing if they weren't so serious.

 

[aftermath]

Indeed Apples- photo 55

It's notable Masipa only referred to the crime scene photos once in her judgment thus

"I may add that there were a number of issues which arose during the course of the trial. These issues took a lot of the court’s time and correctly so, as at the time such issues were important to the parties. The issues concerned were inter alia whether or not the police contaminated the scene, the length of the extension cord that went missing from the accused’s bedroom and the authenticity of photographs of items depicted in various exhibits. Having regard to the evidence as a whole this court is of the view that these issues have now
paled into significance when one has regard to the rest of the evidence. The reason for that view will become clearer later in this judgment...."

And the Appeal head's quote her comment ( BIB2) - but we can only see the Appeal extract.

Her comments, such as BIB1, would be amusing if they weren't so serious.

How does photo 55 show intent to kill?

 

[cottonweaver]

It doesn't .

ie. It doesn't demons that element of the appeal. Need to read the screenshots - "multi-pronged"

Incidentally - At this point obv we can only guess 55 is an image of jeans and duvet with fan(s) in background.

 

[soozieqtips]

It doesn't .

ie. It doesn't demons that element of the appeal. Need to read the screenshots - "multi-pronged"

Incidentally - At this point obv we can only guess 55 is an image of jeans and duvet with fan(s) in background.

And without Roux being able to prove the scene was tampered with, the photo must be accepted as a true representation of how the room appeared at the time - therefore, OP's multiple versions were lies, lies, and more lies.

 

[cottonweaver]

something like this ? screengrab from court monitor

larger image here but pasting it would blow the margins
https://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/op-bedroom.jpg

 

[Trotterly]

How does photo 55 show intent to kill?

It has "I done it - signed Oscar Pistorius" on the back in police-issue biro.

 

[Trotterly]

And without Roux being able to prove the scene was tampered with, the photo must be accepted as a true representation of how the room appeared at the time - therefore, OP's multiple versions were lies, lies, and more lies.

You must be right, he could never climbed over that duvet and dodged round that massive fan.

 

[cottonweaver]

It has "I done it - signed Oscar Pistorius" on the back in police-issue biro.

No, I think he prefers Porkeys don't you?

 

[Colin de France]

.........i think the state need to concentrate on the screams, create an fissure and drive a wedge in........ because otherwise there really is nothing........it just has to be admitted.....

 

[JudgeJudi]

The State pointed to the fact that it was the duty of the court to carefully weigh the cumulative effect of all the pieces of circumstantial evidence together, “and it is only after it has done so that the accused is entitled to the benefit of any reasonable doubt which it may have as to whether the inference of guilt is the only inference that can reasonably be drawn”.

They claim the court wrongly excluded relevant evidence and exhibited a fragmented approach in evaluating circumstantial evidence, e.g. evidence pointed out on police photographs as to the position of certain items in the main bedroom, was erroneously ignored.

The State argues that if the fan was in front of the door; the duvet was on the floor; and if the denim jeans were lying on top of the duvet, the respondent’s version of events (whichever version the Court preferred) could never have been found to be remotely reasonably, possibly true”.

The State reached the conclusion that: “The court a quo’s finding, that the respondent armed himself and approached the bathroom door with the intention to shoot, read with the accused’s own perception of foreseeability and the objective facts inclusive of him firing four shots at the torso level of a normal human being in circumstances where there was no perceived or real attack on him, can with respect, only be evaluated as the respondent having at least the intention to kill in the form of dolus eventualis. He gambled with the life of another.”

They also claim that the trial court placed too much emphasis on OP's reaction shortly after the shooting, which seemed to indicate an intense feeling of remorse. They quoted the Dutch writer Jeroen Blomsma that wrote: “It is clear that desires and motives are irrelevant to dolus and it is no longer a condition for dolus (eventualis) that the actor would have continued if he knew the particular result would occur. The fact that the defendant regrets his mistake should only be incorporated in sentencing.”

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-cou...us-on-dolus-eventualis-1.1901291#.VdK32Y0Vg4k

 

[lithgow1]

You must be right, he could never climbed over that duvet and dodged round that massive fan.

Of course he could have. The point is that he didn`t say he did. Just the opposite in fact. He even admitted under cross that if those photos of the positioning of items were an accurate reflection of the room as the police found it, then his version couldn`t be true. Guess he said that because he was upset and who knows what lies we all might tell when we are upset at being exposed as liars.

 

[soozieqtips]

You must be right, he could never climbed over that duvet and dodged round that massive fan.

Am I mistaken or did you say you watched the entire trial?

If you did, how can you have forgotten that Nel got OP to admit his version couldn't be true if the photo was an accurate depiction of the scene (fan, duvet, jeans). Or do you think OP lied when he agreed his version couldn't possibly be true under those circumstances?

 

[soozieqtips]

Of course he could have. The point is that he didn`t say he did. Just the opposite in fact. He even admitted under cross that if those photos of the positioning of items were an accurate reflection of the room as the police found it, then his version couldn`t be true. Guess he said that because he was upset and who knows what lies we all might tell when we are upset at being exposed as liars.

There will always be a reason to explain away anything which puts OP in a murderer's light, even more so when the damning words come out of his own mouth!

 

[JudgeJudi]

David Dadic ‏@DavidDadic · 15h15 hours ago  Durban, South Africa

"You do realise that if Oscar loses the appeal he'll most certainly re-appeal. Some gifts do just keep giving, even if we don't want them to".


And that would be to the Constitutional Court no doubt.

 

[aftermath]

You must be right, he could never climbed over that duvet and dodged round that massive fan.

The duvet could have ended up on the floor when he got up after sitting on the end of the bed to get his prostheses on