Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #63 ~ the appeal~

[aftermath]

.....i can assure you my intention was certainly not to be rude.......i don't believe at all that you sincerly meant what you wrote...you don't sound convincing at all, it's the way the post comes across.......that's the way i perceived it and as i said i'm sorry but i don't believe it.......

And as I said - you are being rude; if you don't believe me, whilst marginally annoying it has no real relevance to the case; and it would probably be better if you choose to engage with the post rather than the poster.

 

[Colin de France]

And as I said - you are being rude; if you don't believe me, whilst marginally annoying it has no real relevance to the case; and it would probably be better if you choose to engage with the post rather than the poster.

......but i am engaging with post....that's exactly it....i just tend to believe in what i write......what's rude about that ? ............you need to be more convincing ..you can't just wipe away witnesses to a womans screams at the sweep of a hand in the most completely unconvincing manner...........

 

[aftermath]

......but i am engaging with post....that's exactly it....i just tend to believe in what i write......what's rude about that ? ............you need to be more convincing ..you can't just wipe away witnesses to a womans screams at the sweep of a hand in the most completely unconvincing manner...........

I don't need to be more convincing simply because you say so. You aren't engaging with what I am posting - you are resorting to the default tactic of being subtly insulting. What experience of male/female screams did the four earwitnesses have? That was the key content of my post. If you don't think that is relevant - fine, but say so. If you think everyone instinctively can tell a male scream from a female scream, again -fine, but say so. It isn't appropriate for you to call my posting integrity into question, so please stop.

 

[soozieqtips]

aftermath - why do people have to have previously experienced a woman screaming for her life before it can be agreed they heard a woman screaming for her life?? Reeva screaming and OP crying/wailing are not the same thing. If 100 people heard a woman screaming, would you still ask what experience they'd had of hearing it before accepting they heard it? It is hard to engage with your posts when you flat out dismiss all the witnesses who heard a woman screaming... moments before that same woman was shot dead. It's bordering on ridiculous when all witnesses are dismissed because they haven't got prior qualifications in hearing women scream for their life!

 

[lithgow1]

I don't need to be more convincing simply because you say so. You aren't engaging with what I am posting - you are resorting to the default tactic of being subtly insulting. What experience of male/female screams did the four earwitnesses have? That was the key content of my post. If you don't think that is relevant - fine, but say so. If you think everyone instinctively can tell a male scream from a female scream, again -fine, but say so. It isn't appropriate for you to call my posting integrity into question, so please stop.

OK, so do you believe that the screams were of someone terrified, someone who thought their life was in danger? Or were they mistaken about the motive for the screams as well as the male vs female issue? If you believe that the screams were of someone who was terrified, why the hell would a man armed with a gun go towards possibly armed and dangerous intruder/s screaming like some girl out of Friday 13th? Doesn`t that sound somewhat self defeating? Any intruder worth their salt would think `I can take on that girly man`. In fact if Pistorius, and by extension you, GR Turner and Trotterly are to be believed the intruder would have thought it was a woman approaching down the hallway.

Yes, I am being facetious but come on ... I have never been attacked by a black bear but I know that if I ever find myself in that situation to try and make myself look as big as possible so the bear won't think I am easy prey. Similar thing - Pistorius was thinking clearly enough to get his gun, tell Reeva to call the police (though not why), make his way down the hall in a stealthy fashion and not fire a warning shot and yet he never paused to think maybe I should try bellowing rather than shrieking. It is just BS.

 

[aftermath]

aftermath - why do people have to have previously experienced a woman screaming for her life before it can be agreed they heard a woman screaming for her life?? Reeva screaming and OP crying/wailing are not the same thing. If 100 people heard a woman screaming, would you still ask what experience they'd had of hearing it before accepting they heard it? It is hard to engage with your posts when you flat out dismiss all the witnesses who heard a woman screaming... moments before that same woman was shot dead. It's bordering on ridiculous when all witnesses are dismissed because they haven't got prior qualifications in hearing women scream for their life!

Prior qualifications are not necessary. But if they have not heard a man screaming in such a terrible situation, then how can they say with certainty that they heard a woman? We hear women screaming on TV/in films all the time. The damsel-in-distress narrative is a well established trope. Socially, we may be conditioned to expect women to scream more than men and therefore to ascribe screams in the night to a woman as a default.

None of the witnesses are being dismissed at all. That's an accidental or deliberate over-extension of what I said in my post. But other witnesses heard other things at similar times, so on what basis they decided it was a woman screaming needs to be explored....

 

[lithgow1]

aftermath - why do people have to have previously experienced a woman screaming for her life before it can be agreed they heard a woman screaming for her life?? Reeva screaming and OP crying/wailing are not the same thing. If 100 people heard a woman screaming, would you still ask what experience they'd had of hearing it before accepting they heard it? It is hard to engage with your posts when you flat out dismiss all the witnesses who heard a woman screaming... moments before that same woman was shot dead. It's bordering on ridiculous when all witnesses are dismissed because they haven't got prior qualifications in hearing women scream for their life!

Exactly.

 

[lithgow1]

Prior qualifications are not necessary. But if they have not heard a man screaming in such a terrible situation, then how can they say with certainty that they heard a woman? We hear women screaming on TV/in films all the time. The damsel-in-distress narrative is a well established trope. Socially, we may be conditioned to expect women to scream more than men and therefore to ascribe screams in the night to a woman as a default.

None of the witnesses are being dismissed at all. That's an accidental or deliberate over-extension of what I said in my post. But other witnesses heard other things at similar times, so on what basis they decided it was a woman screaming needs to be explored....

When I questioned Roger Dixon`s use of `my eyes' as his measuring instrument in OP's bedroom one of you (GR Turner I think) responded that there was no reason why his eyes were not good enough to do that test but on the flip side, four people hearing what they described as a woman`s bloodcurdling screams is dismissed. But of course you have to dismiss it because if it is true, then Oscar Pistorius is the gutless murderer that most of us think he is.

 

[aftermath]

OK, so do you believe that the screams were of someone terrified, someone who thought their life was in danger? Or were they mistaken about the motive for the screams as well as the male vs female issue? If you believe that the screams were of someone who was terrified, why the hell would a man armed with a gun go towards possibly armed and dangerous intruder/s screaming like some girl out of Friday 13th? Doesn`t that sound somewhat self defeating? Any intruder worth their salt would think `I can take on that girly man`.

Yes, I am being facetious but come on ... I have never been attacked by a black bear but I know that if I ever find myself in that situation to try and make myself look as big as possible so the bear won't think I am easy prey. Similar thing - Pistorius was thinking clearly enough to get his gun, tell Reeva to call the police (though not why), make his way down the hall in a stealthy fashion and not fire a warning shot and yet he never paused to think maybe I should try bellowing rather than shrieking. It is just BS.

On his version he was screaming after shooting reeva, on realising what he had probably just done, not when he was heading up the passage the first time. If true, I doubt very much that he was concerned what he sounded like. I have never heard the cry/scream of someone who knows they have possibly killed someone close to them in error.

 

[cottonweaver]

Here's the science all over again - up-to-date facts on screams, in order to engage with in the quest for truth.
Traced and verified sources.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/06/150617134616.htm
“Human screams have unique auditory qualities. Human screams of terror are extremely effective at conveying distress and alarm, but exactly why has not been known. Now David Poeppel of New York University and his colleagues have looked beyond the measurements of sound pressure and frequency, which merely indicate that screams are louder and higher pitched than normal speech, and focused on their modulation power spectrum. They found that while typical speech changes less than 5 Hz, screams fluctuate rapidly between 30 Hz and 150 Hz. Those fluctuations give the sound a certain “roughness” that is unique in human vocalizations. Based on the ranking of volunteers who listened to various terror screams, the researchers found that the more screams fluctuate in volume, the scarier they are perceived to be. That’s because screams activate both the auditory cortex and the amygdala, the part of the brain attuned to emotional reactions; regular speech triggers just the auditory cortex. The natural acoustic roughness of human terror screams has been effectively mimicked in artificial systems, such as house and car alarms, which is what makes them so “super annoying and hard to miss,” says Poeppel.
BRAND NEW as of July 2015

"“But what’s surprising in all this is that the entire range of men’s and women’s voices remains between about 65 Hz for a male with a very deep bass voice to the highest note of a female coloratura soprano, just above 1,000 Hz, at 1,280 Hz. (A female high-pitched scream can go quite a bit higher, to around 3,000 Hz.) –“

So let’s imagine a male high voice gets to 1000Hz, that leaves us with a female scream still 2000 hz away.

See more at: http://www.axiomaudio.com/blog/audi...e-and-children’s-voices/#sthash.RGs8yWxs.dpuf

These, as we know are from an earlier thread.
Oscar would not have been able to reproduce these characteristics ever.

You know though - when I joined WS, I learned stuff from other posters, isn't that odd.
This is getting silly, isn't it.

Maybe, I should contact correctional services and suggest for Oscar - female-only OPERA company.

 

[lithgow1]

On his version he was screaming after shooting reeva, on realising what he had probably just done, not when he was heading up the passage the first time. If true, I doubt very much that he was concerned what he sounded like. I have never heard the cry/scream of someone who knows they have possibly killed someone close to them in error.

I would have to look back at that evidence. I am sure he said he was screaming when he was making his way down the hallway, interspersed with 'get out of my house` and more calls for Reeva to call the police.

I have never heard the screams of someone who fears they have just killed someone close to them either but I am pretty sure they would peak in intensity when they saw the bloody confirmation of the fact that they had, rather than abruptly stop because what would be the point.

 

[lithgow1]

On his version he was screaming after shooting reeva, on realising what he had probably just done, not when he was heading up the passage the first time. If true, I doubt very much that he was concerned what he sounded like. I have never heard the cry/scream of someone who knows they have possibly killed someone close to them in error.

From the Guardian`s live tweets at the time:

"It's a lie," says Nel bluntly about Pistorius' account of him heading towards danger. "Nobody does that," insists Nel. Pistorius describes how he was shouting and screaming, but then went quiet as he approached the bedroom. Then he heard a door close, and became sure that someone was in the house. He peered round the corner into the bathroom and didn't see anybody. He saw the toilet door was closed. It usually is open.

and

"My voice is the only voice screaming that night," says Pistorius. Neighbours in Pistorius's gated testimony testified they heard a woman's "blood curdling" screams, dying away after the final gunshot. Pistorius says it was his screams between the shots.

 

[soozieqtips]

~snipped~

So let’s imagine a male high voice gets to 1000Hz, that leaves us with a female scream still 2000 hz away.

These, as we know are from an earlier thread.
Oscar would not have been able to reproduce these characteristics ever.

BIB - flogging a dead horse, cotton. It doesn't matter what facts you bring to the table, there are people who refuse to look at them because it doesn't fit in with their 'innocent' narrative. Their quest is not about truth or justice, but about throwing anything out that points to OP being a murderer. In order to do that, they must suspend all that which is likely, and focus only on that which is highly unlikely (OP screaming like a woman in fear for her life, for example) - or Reeva being struck dumb from the moment OP heard a noise... to the moment he pumped four bullets through the door and killed her.

 

[soozieqtips]

I would have to look back at that evidence. I am sure he said he was screaming when he was making his way down the hallway, interspersed with 'get out of my house` and more calls for Reeva to call the police.

I have never heard the screams of someone who fears they have just killed someone close to them either but I am pretty sure they would peak in intensity when they saw the bloody confirmation of the fact that they had, rather than abruptly stop because what would be the point.

BIB - yet another oddity. Yet it fits in with him being "saddened" at what he'd done. I was "saddened" today when I realised I'd killed off yet another geranium with my over zealous watering...

 

[lithgow1]

BIB - yet another oddity. Yet it fits in with him being "saddened" at what he'd done. I was "saddened" today when I realised I'd killed off yet another geranium with my over zealous watering...

Yes, I was saddened when I knocked over the cup of tea I was enjoying. I guess since neither of us have been in the situation of seeing a dead or dying loved one that we have just shot then we are not in a position to express an opinion on how Pistorius responded. I wonder if the man who shot his daughter and the one who shot his pregnant wife were also `saddened` when they realised what they had done.

 

[cottonweaver]

Geraniums LOL.
Dry and drained for them - originating as they do in S. Africa!

 

[GR_Turner]

When I questioned Roger Dixon`s use of `my eyes' as his measuring instrument in OP's bedroom one of you (GR Turner I think) responded that there was no reason why his eyes were not good enough to do that test but on the flip side, four people hearing what they described as a woman`s bloodcurdling screams is dismissed. But of course you have to dismiss it because if it is true, then Oscar Pistorius is the gutless murderer that most of us think he is.

This isn't a fair comparison. If Dixon's impression of how dark it was was contradicted by other evidence then of course I'd think twice about it. But in the absence of any other information I can't see why we should reject it. The state didn't even bother to make the test at all.

 

[GR_Turner]

I would have to look back at that evidence. I am sure he said he was screaming when he was making his way down the hallway, interspersed with 'get out of my house` and more calls for Reeva to call the police.

I have never heard the screams of someone who fears they have just killed someone close to them either but I am pretty sure they would peak in intensity when they saw the bloody confirmation of the fact that they had, rather than abruptly stop because what would be the point.

Aftermath is right - the defense case is not that the neighbours heard OP screaming before the shots but after the shots when he realised he might have shot Reeva. It wouldn't be at all surprising to me if he did cry out in fear and distress in such a situation. I think one of the close neighbours heard the male crying 'no, no please no' which certainly sounds like someone who's just realised he's made a dreadful mistake. Add in the other evidence and it's hard not to think this is possible.

 

[lithgow1]

Aftermath is right - the defense case is not that the neighbours heard OP screaming before the shots but after the shots when he realised he might have shot Reeva. It wouldn't be at all surprising to me if he did cry out in fear and distress in such a situation. I think one of the close neighbours heard the male crying 'no, no please no' which certainly sounds like someone who's just realised he's made a dreadful mistake. Add in the other evidence and it's hard not to think this is possible.

See post # 132.

 

[GR_Turner]

Here's the science all over again - up-to-date facts on screams, in order to engage with in the quest for truth.
Traced and verified sources.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/06/150617134616.htm
“Human screams have unique auditory qualities. Human screams of terror are extremely effective at conveying distress and alarm, but exactly why has not been known. Now David Poeppel of New York University and his colleagues have looked beyond the measurements of sound pressure and frequency, which merely indicate that screams are louder and higher pitched than normal speech, and focused on their modulation power spectrum. They found that while typical speech changes less than 5 Hz, screams fluctuate rapidly between 30 Hz and 150 Hz. Those fluctuations give the sound a certain “roughness” that is unique in human vocalizations. Based on the ranking of volunteers who listened to various terror screams, the researchers found that the more screams fluctuate in volume, the scarier they are perceived to be. That’s because screams activate both the auditory cortex and the amygdala, the part of the brain attuned to emotional reactions; regular speech triggers just the auditory cortex. The natural acoustic roughness of human terror screams has been effectively mimicked in artificial systems, such as house and car alarms, which is what makes them so “super annoying and hard to miss,” says Poeppel.
BRAND NEW as of July 2015

"“But what’s surprising in all this is that the entire range of men’s and women’s voices remains between about 65 Hz for a male with a very deep bass voice to the highest note of a female coloratura soprano, just above 1,000 Hz, at 1,280 Hz. (A female high-pitched scream can go quite a bit higher, to around 3,000 Hz.) –“

So let’s imagine a male high voice gets to 1000Hz, that leaves us with a female scream still 2000 hz away.

See more at: http://www.axiomaudio.com/blog/audi...e-and-children’s-voices/#sthash.RGs8yWxs.dpuf

These, as we know are from an earlier thread.
Oscar would not have been able to reproduce these characteristics ever.

You know though - when I joined WS, I learned stuff from other posters, isn't that odd.
This is getting silly, isn't it.

Maybe, I should contact correctional services and suggest for Oscar - female-only OPERA company.

I don't see how this shows anything. You need to show that the total range of male voice frequencies excludes that for females and this doesn't do that at all. We aren't talking about normal speaking voices and the article is talking about averages in any case. We have no idea about the frequency of the screams that night so this doesn't indicate anything.