Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #63 ~ the appeal~

[soozieqtips]

Aftermath is right - the defense case is not that the neighbours heard OP screaming before the shots but after the shots when he realised he might have shot Reeva. It wouldn't be at all surprising to me if he did cry out in fear and distress in such a situation. I think one of the close neighbours heard the male crying 'no, no please no' which certainly sounds like someone who's just realised he's made a dreadful mistake. Add in the other evidence and it's hard not to think this is possible.

BIB - screaming... or crying? There is a difference.

 

[aftermath]

BIB - screaming... or crying? There is a difference.

Crying can be a synonym for screaming:
http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english-thesaurus/scream

 

[lithgow1]

Crying can be a synonym for screaming:
http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english-thesaurus/scream

Can crying be a synonym for `blood curdling screams`, `terrible screams` or `terrifying screams`? Not in my dictionary. Cries maybe, but not crying.

BTW, did you read post 132 where Pistorius claimed that he was screaming both before and during the shooting, in contradiction of what you and GR Turner claimed?

 

[Colin de France]

~snipped~


BIB - flogging a dead horse, cotton. It doesn't matter what facts you bring to the table, there are people who refuse to look at them because it doesn't fit in with their 'innocent' narrative. Their quest is not about truth or justice, but about throwing anything out that points to OP being a murderer. In order to do that, they must suspend all that which is likely, and focus only on that which is highly unlikely (OP screaming like a woman in fear for her life, for example) - or Reeva being struck dumb from the moment OP heard a noise... to the moment he pumped four bullets through the door and killed her.

....if i were to say that i would be accused of insulting again .....!

 

[Colin de France]

I don't see how this shows anything. You need to show that the total range of male voice frequencies excludes that for females and this doesn't do that at all. We aren't talking about normal speaking voices and the article is talking about averages in any case. We have no idea about the frequency of the screams that night so this doesn't indicate anything.

....what does it take to convince you...we can safely say it was a woman that screamed.....more safely than that of a man......

 

[aftermath]

Can crying be a synonym for `blood curdling screams`, `terrible screams` or `terrifying screams`? Not in my dictionary. Cries maybe, but not crying.

No because crying and screaming are both verbs, cries and screams are both nouns. Terrible, terrifying and blood curdling are being used as adjectives, describing the nouns. So you could have blood curdling screaming/crying/screams /cries. Or terrifying screaming/crying/screams /cries etc. But whilst the verbs and nouns are fairly neutral, (arguably 'scream' is more powerful and emotionally-loaded than 'cry'), the adjectives are very emotive and personal, so less reliable as a detail of fact.

 

[Colin de France]

Aftermath is right - the defense case is not that the neighbours heard OP screaming before the shots but after the shots when he realised he might have shot Reeva. It wouldn't be at all surprising to me if he did cry out in fear and distress in such a situation. I think one of the close neighbours heard the male crying 'no, no please no' which certainly sounds like someone who's just realised he's made a dreadful mistake. Add in the other evidence and it's hard not to think this is possible.

....what other evidence ? .....

 

[lithgow1]

No because crying and screaming are both verbs, cries and screams are both nouns. Terrible, terrifying and blood curdling are being used as adjectives, describing the nouns. So you could have blood curdling screaming/crying/screams /cries. Or terrifying screaming/crying/screams /cries etc. But whilst the verbs and nouns are fairly neutral, (arguably 'scream' is more powerful and emotionally-loaded than 'cry'), the adjectives are very emotive and personal, so less reliable as a detail of fact.

Oh FFS. They were asked to describe the noun and in order to do so they supplied adjectives that best summed up what they heard. You just don`t like those particular adjectives IMO.

Have you had a chance to read # 132 yet? It is not very long.

 

[cottonweaver]

I don't see how this shows anything. You need to show that the total range of male voice frequencies excludes that for females and this doesn't do that at all. We aren't talking about normal speaking voices and the article is talking about averages in any case. We have no idea about the frequency of the screams that night so this doesn't indicate anything.

Interesting that you choose not to engage with the first article which I linked to - why screams are unmistakeable and connect to the amygddala - and why that ground breaking research of July 2015 supports all the empirical, common sense understanding of people across all cultures - that they can distinguish a female scream and what "blood curdling" indicates.

Anyway , what would be really original- post a link that actually supports your assertion and contradicts the neuroscientist Poppel- and paste the specific point please.

 

[aftermath]

Can crying be a synonym for `blood curdling screams`, `terrible screams` or `terrifying screams`? Not in my dictionary. Cries maybe, but not crying.

BTW, did you read post 132 where Pistorius claimed that he was screaming both before and during the shooting, in contradiction of what you and GR Turner claimed?

The defence heads of argument is clear about the screaming/crying out heard by witnesses before the second set of bangs being those of pistorius, after realising what he had done.

 

[lithgow1]

The defence heads of argument is clear about the screaming/crying out heard by witnesses before the second set of bangs being those of pistorius, after realising what he had done.

That is not what he says in his evidence. He said he was screaming when he first started making his way down the hallway and screaming when he was firing the shots. From the Mirror`s tweets:

After he screamed for the people to get out, he says he kept away from the corner into the bathroom. He moved forward little by little until he could see more of the bathroom.

He said that he couldn't see in the bathroom, but he couldn't see outlines.

He could see the shape of the bathtub.

"I then moved forward, I had my pistol in front of me... I stayed as far away as I could from the wall to where the basins are around the corner."

He says his eyes were looking to see if there was someone in the bathroom to ambush him and he was looking at the window and the toilet door.

10:44 am
Then he says he started screaming again.

Nel says that there's something very important that he's forgotten to mention what happened.

Nel says: "The door slammed."

Pistorius says that he did say that the door slammed earlier this morning. Nel says that this is not so.

 

[aftermath]

That is not what he says in his evidence. He said he was screaming when he first started making his way down the hallway and screaming when he was firing the shots. From the Mirror`s tweets:

After he screamed for the people to get out, he says he kept away from the corner into the bathroom. He moved forward little by little until he could see more of the bathroom.

He said that he couldn't see in the bathroom, but he couldn't see outlines.

He could see the shape of the bathtub.

"I then moved forward, I had my pistol in front of me... I stayed as far away as I could from the wall to where the basins are around the corner."

He says his eyes were looking to see if there was someone in the bathroom to ambush him and he was looking at the window and the toilet door.

10:44 am
Then he says he started screaming again.

Nel says that there's something very important that he's forgotten to mention what happened.

Nel says: "The door slammed."

Pistorius says that he did say that the door slammed earlier this morning. Nel says that this is not so.

"I ran back to the room, I opened the curtains, opened the doors and shouted from the balcony for help. I screamed 'help, help, help'. I screamed for somebody to help me.

"I put my prosthetic legs on. I ran as fast as I could back to the bathroom, I ran into the door. It didn't move at all. I tried to kick the door but nothing happened.

"I was just panicked. At this point I didn't know what to make or what to do. So I run (sic) back to the bedroom where the cricket bat was between the cabinet and the door.

"I was screaming and shouting the whole time. I don't think I have ever screamed or cried like that. I was crying out to the Lord to help me, I was crying out to Reeva, I was screaming."

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2014-...e-with-fear-before-shooting-steenkamp/5376410

 

[lithgow1]

"I ran back to the room, I opened the curtains, opened the doors and shouted from the balcony for help. I screamed 'help, help, help'. I screamed for somebody to help me.

"I put my prosthetic legs on. I ran as fast as I could back to the bathroom, I ran into the door. It didn't move at all. I tried to kick the door but nothing happened.

"I was just panicked. At this point I didn't know what to make or what to do. So I run (sic) back to the bedroom where the cricket bat was between the cabinet and the door.

"I was screaming and shouting the whole time. I don't think I have ever screamed or cried like that. I was crying out to the Lord to help me, I was crying out to Reeva, I was screaming."

Yes that is after but he also claimed to be screaming before and during the shooting. I am not the one claiming this, it was his evidence so you must either accept that you are wrong in claiming he only screamed after the shooting and acknowledge that he screamed before and during as well or you say he was wrong or lying when he gave that evidence.

 

[cottonweaver]

@Lithgow: It's certainly how I recall it as even on the day of the testimony it struck me as very odd and conflicting re. screaming but not wanting the intruder to know where he was.

It's undeniable that we all had the unique opportunity to witness real testimony unfiltered through having this televised trial or by following live tweets. All these complaints about media manipulation are a "hill of beans" in comparison to that, as this is how the majority came to their own opinions.

 

[soozieqtips]

Yes that is after but he also claimed to be screaming before and during the shooting. I am not the one claiming this, it was his evidence so you must either accept that you are wrong in claiming he only screamed after the shooting and acknowledge that he screamed before and during as well or you say he was wrong or lying when he gave that evidence.

The cynical among us think the "screaming like I'd never screamed before" tripe was a deliberate lie to cover for the fact multiple people heard Reeva screaming for her life.

 

[lithgow1]

The cynical among us think the "screaming like I'd never screamed before" tripe was a deliberate lie to cover for the fact multiple people heard Reeva screaming for her life.

I don`t think we need to be cynical to think that. Logical may not be a synonym for cynical but it is the word I would use. Or ungullible!

I`m also sure that the `Get the f#%$ out of my house` was what he screamed at her. It would make sense and it was a powerful moment in the trial. He needed another break to compose himself after that one.

 

[soozieqtips]

I don`t think we need to be cynical to think that. Rational may not be a synonym for cynical but it is the word I would use. Or ungullible!

I`m also sure that the `Get the f#%$ out of my house` was what he screamed at her. It would make sense and it was a powerful moment in the trial. He needed another break to compose himself after that one.

Oh yes. Very powerful and I remember the long pause before he finally said those words. It was one of the rare moments I thought he was actually telling the truth... if you substituted the intruder-that-never-was for Reeva. There was another really long pause of over 30 seconds too to another question, or was that the one? I'm sure there were 2 really long pauses, and I remember thinking he was going to confess during one of them. It was a very tense moment.

 

[lithgow1]

Oh yes. Very powerful and I remember the long pause before he finally said those words. It was one of the rare moments I thought he was actually telling the truth... if you substituted the intruder-that-never-was for Reeva. There was another really long pause of over 30 seconds too to another question, or was that the one? I'm sure there were 2 really long pauses, and I remember thinking he was going to confess during one of them. It was a very tense moment.

I remember that too but can`t recall off the top of my head what it was but I also thought he was going to confess. But yes, there were two moments. Another quote below about the screaming. So much noise from him, total silence from her. Followed by a quote about the warning shot that some people try to say was a later realisation. Are they having a laugh?

"I got to the entrance of the bathroom, at the end of the passage. At this point I was certain that an intruder or intruders were there in my bathroom."

He said he saw the bathroom window was open and he screamed for Ms Steenkamp to call the police.

"I wasn't sure if somebody was going to come out of the toilet and attack me," he told the court. "I wasn't sure if someone was going to come up the ladder and point a firearm and start shooting. So I just stayed where I was and I kept on screaming.

Quote below is from Juror13 blog.

Nel then asks him if he ever thought about firing a warning shot in to the shower. Oscar says, “if I fired a warning shot at the shower it would have ricocheted and possibly hit me.” So Nel says to him you foresaw the possibility that if you fire that ammunition it could ricochet and hit somebody. Oscar then goes back to his standard answer, he wasn’t thinking. But he just outlined a moment before why he didn’t shoot elsewhere, because it would ricochet, and that illustrates that he had very conscious thought about what he was doing.

 

[cottonweaver]

Super-cynical-me thought, in hindsight, the pause before "get the f...." was concentration before trying to achieve a high pitched voice.
But on the day, yes, I thought he was about to break down and confess- a dramatic moment.

 

[soozieqtips]

The holes are marked A to D on the door.

"A is aimed at the toilet, if you look at the trajectory. Now, the evidence is that that bullet struck her in the right hip," Nel said.

"Captain Mangena said she then fell on the magazine rack. C and D is aimed at where the magazine rack is. You heard the magazine rack move and you changed your aim."

Captain Chris Mangena is the police ballistics expert.

Pistorius struggled to reply. "I couldn't have heard her fall on the magazine rack because according to the State's evidence one of the shots missed."

"I don't know what you've answered," Nel said.

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2014/04/14/the-oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-day-22

Interesting that OP doesn't say "I couldn't have heard her fall on the magazine rack because I was temporarily deafened by the shots...". Wouldn't that have been the time to tell Nel he couldn't hear??? So as he didn't mention it, we can assume for sure that he wasn't deafened by anything, and did in fact hear Reeva screaming - just like all the witnesses claimed she was.