Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #64 ~ the appeal~

[Interested Bystander]

...thanks, i know it goes against the general opinion on here, but if there was a fight beforehand i find it difficult to imagine him shooting to kill once she got in the WC, the move from a fight to murder seems too much in that he was under no threat from her, it just doesn't feel right........but i can see him blasting at the door to try to get in, that does make sense......

Surely he would not have gone to those extremes just to open the door. I feel if he cooled his temper RS would have opened the door and he would certainly not have shot at the body of the door to open it. The small holes that are made by firing through wood would not have gained entry for him. Having admitted during the trial that he would not have fired into the shower because of the danger of ricochets it is unlikely he would have fired into the toilet cubicle without intent. If he had fired at the lock your argument would make more sense but one would hope he would have warned RS of what he was going to do. If not the only assumption can be that her safety was of no interest to him.

 

[Interested Bystander]

The gun had already been casually handled by the police who unfortunately seemed oblivious to the possibility that trace evidence might be enlightening.

The area of the bruise could have been chemically analysed for traces of metallic elements from the metal grip or gun oil not present on the surrounding skin.

Seeing the grip next to the striations in the bruise is striking and fits much better than a fabric impression.

If OP was gripping the gun normally it is difficult to see how it would have been that part of the gun that would have caused the bruise in the middle of her back if they were in close contact.

It is possible that the gun was thrown but with OP arguing on his stumps I am wondering why he would risk that. Looking forward to hearing more.

I was never convinced by the bullet or rack theories for the striations and at one time thought it may have been a watch bezel (the missing watch?). Never thought of the gun handle - nice detective work!

If you accept the gun handle striations it does indicate there must have been some stress between the two and further suggests he knew it was RS in the toilet cubicle. I did not think that was your position on this crime. Have you changed your mind about the fact that OP very likely knew he was shooting at RS and consequently knew the outcome of him shooting at the door would likely be fatal? Or have I completely misinterpreted your position?

 

[Colin de France]

Surely he would not have gone to those extremes just to open the door. I feel if he cooled his temper RS would have opened the door and he would certainly not have shot at the body of the door to open it. The small holes that are made by firing through wood would not have gained entry for him. Having admitted during the trial that he would not have fired into the shower because of the danger of ricochets it is unlikely he would have fired into the toilet cubicle without intent. If he had fired at the lock your argument would make more sense but one would hope he would have warned RS of what he was going to do. If not the only assumption can be that her safety was of no interest to him.

....the danger of ricochets was in retrospect......i see him firing on the door in a moment of extreme rage, it was an action not thought out, it may well have a mixture of anger because he could not get to her and to blow a hole in the door which could well of happened if for example the door was more solid and further away allowing the bullets to open out.....he is simply someone who can not control his anger it blinds him to reason, i don't think he shot her on purpose it doesn't feel right, not only that unless he had already thought up the intruder excuse beforehand it would of been obvious at that moment he would not get away with it......

 

[Interested Bystander]

Neat work Mr Fossil and JJ. If the striations are from the gun, he could have thrown the gun; I feel this is a possibility. It would be interesting to know how a thrown gun rotates, if at all, when being thrown. I think it more likely he was behind RS and was going to hit her with the butt of the gun with strong downward force. Other photos on the internet clearly show bruising above the mark under discussion. However this means he would have to be holding the muzzle. That would probably have been dangerous for him unless he had removed the clip.

I have no doubt in my mind that there was an argument and OP was chasing her from the bedroom. This for me was confirmed by Mrs Stipp's comment that the screaming seemed to be coming nearer.

I hope you will be looking into the screams at some stage as the science seems to prove that the Johnson's could/would have heard female screams from the first floor bedroom/balcony of their home. I think the fact that Johnson thought he heard more shots could well have been because he was out on the balcony and may have heard echos from the stony outcrop on which The Farm was built.

Keep up the good work.

 

[cottonweaver]

@ IB,

The screams. I was particularly interested in your link to that contribution you posted a month? ago, a newspaper commenter with expertiser on science of scream exhalation with the final shot.

Additionally the screams in terms of the geo/accoustic and neuroscience research that we talked about ages ago. The evidence presented at court was very out of date and non-specialist. Even if it leads to nothing, I feel that an overview of that,on their blog, is very useful.

Throwing of gun - like you I have been trying to visualise that since I read the blog. Think Fossil said yesterday - it may all become clearer as they publish more. At the moment though, my visualisation of a scenario is similar to yours but time will tell. ( Close contact, her bent over temporarily ( pick up jeans/pushed to ground etc), making those spinal knobs vulnerable whilst he approaches gun in hand, grapples, strikes with gun etc. )

IB - "Other photos on the internet clearly show bruising above the mark under discussion" - is that J13 photos or Behind the door?

@JJ Fossil - want to see your stuff in DMaverick soon! It's one of the best SA newspapers IMO
Is there any way you can add to the page one of those diagrams showing her on the magazine rack - (no idea whose copyright etc.) think it adds to the elimination of that.
I would love to know what amount of force is needed to create those striations, but I appreciate that may be difficult.

 

[cottonweaver]

In case it has not been linked here already

Judge Greenland radio interview, Aug 2015 AFAIK, – on why it should have been directus, killing a human with intent.

https://radiochatter.wordpress.com/2014/09/26/oscar-pistorius-trial-the-verdict/

This is a Sittingbourne ( small place in Kent, UK) radio DJ who has clearly been following the trial, for a local radio DJ, I think pretty good job.

Also on bottom of that linked page is one of his earlier interviews at verdict time with another SA Law Soc President, again DJ asks more incisive questions than some of the SA investigative journos - "how that can that be?" LOL

 

[Trotterly]

If you accept the gun handle striations it does indicate there must have been some stress between the two and further suggests he knew it was RS in the toilet cubicle. I did not think that was your position on this crime. Have you changed your mind about the fact that OP very likely knew he was shooting at RS and consequently knew the outcome of him shooting at the door would likely be fatal? Or have I completely misinterpreted your position?

My opinion is based on the balance of the evidence. If the bruise could be convincingly tied to the gun then I think it would be enough to tip the balance against OP.

If it is an imprint of the end of the gun handle it is difficult to see how this could have been caused in any way other than deliberately by OP. It cannot have been caused when he was moving Reeva.

 

[Estelle]

OT Just thought I would tell you that I am in. CAPE TOWN until next Monday. Everyone here thinks OP is guilty.

 

[cottonweaver]

Oscar Pistorius: Amateur sleuths comb through evidence, find 'serious oversights'

At first I thought this was a reference to Mr Fossil's and JJ's work but appears two brothers are also re-examining the evidence with view to publishing a book.

"Thomas recreated in his Piketberg flat an exact replica of the bathroom of Oscar's home, determining the trajectories of the four bullets by using the known heights of the bullet holes but also “accounted for some other ignored factors”. He also lugged jars of sheep's blood up from the nearby abattoir to, among other, investigate the “flush patterns” in the toilet in Oscar's bathroom."

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/arti...vidence-find-serious-oversights/#.ViiyyLyDBFK

These two amateur sleuths are the same pair who have exposed Dixon as a liar, allegedly

 

[Giles]

In case it has not been linked here already

Judge Greenland radio interview, Aug 2015 AFAIK, – on why it should have been directus, killing a human with intent.

https://radiochatter.wordpress.com/2014/09/26/oscar-pistorius-trial-the-verdict/

This is a Sittingbourne ( small place in Kent, UK) radio DJ who has clearly been following the trial, for a local radio DJ, I think pretty good job.

Also on bottom of that linked page is one of his earlier interviews at verdict time with another SA Law Soc President, again DJ asks more incisive questions than some of the SA investigative journos - "how that can that be?" LOL

Thanks for the link cottonweaver. I hadn't heard this Judge Greenland interview before. He was always one of my favourite analysts during the trial and I have wondered how he viewed the case with the benefit of more time for reflection. I know he was quite outspoken after the verdict and it's interesting to hear his opinion hasn't wavered.

 

[JudgeJudi]

OT Just thought I would tell you that I am in. CAPE TOWN until next Monday. Everyone here thinks OP is guilty.

:welcomeback:

G'day Estelle. We haven't seen you for such a long time. I hope you're enjoying your travels and thank you for that bit of news.

You're lucky you're over there because it's been pouring on and off for days in Sydney with lots more to come.

Bye bye from

:australia:

 

[Colin de France]

....regarding the photo of the vest https://cc11313.wordpress.com/ the image seems to me to show the outside of the vest whereas the marks on Reeva would have been caused by the inside.... according to information given to me the inside of this type of pattern would have been smooth.......?

 

[Mr Fossil]

....regarding the photo of the vest https://cc11313.wordpress.com/ the image seems to me to show the outside of the vest whereas the marks on Reeva would have been caused by the inside.... according to information given to me the inside of this type of pattern would have been smooth.......?

Yes, that is correct, as our 'abrasions' post says it is the outside and yet the striations must be caused by the inside in Nel's version. I am informed that rib stitch is the same on both sides.

 

[Colin de France]

Yes, that is correct, as our 'abrasions' post says it is the outside and yet the striations must be caused by the inside in Nel's version. I am informed that rib stitch is the same on both sides.

....unless we can see the inside it's going to be difficult to settle as there are different forms of patterns in this style and i'm not an expert in knitting .......in anycase i can't see how a pattern like this would leave a mark so strong......i'm 101% certain he hit her with the gun.....

 

[cottonweaver]

....unless we can see the inside it's going to be difficult to settle as there are different forms of patterns in this style and i'm not an expert in knitting .......in anycase i can't see how a pattern like this would leave a mark so strong......i'm 101% certain he hit her with the gun.....

Knitting - That part brought a smile to my face Colin

 

[Colin de France]

Knitting - That part brought a smile to my face Colin

.....and also if it was the magazine rack the imprint would have been squashed ....so the lines woudn't of been so well formed........?

 

[aftermath]

.....and also if it was the magazine rack the imprint would have been squashed ....so the lines woudn't of been so well formed........?

Wouldn't it be a bit like when you get imprints from clothing on knees /elbows etc when you have been leaning /kneeling heavily?

 

[akp]

In case it has not been linked here already

Judge Greenland radio interview, Aug 2015 AFAIK, – on why it should have been directus, killing a human with intent.

https://radiochatter.wordpress.com/2014/09/26/oscar-pistorius-trial-the-verdict/

This is a Sittingbourne ( small place in Kent, UK) radio DJ who has clearly been following the trial, for a local radio DJ, I think pretty good job.

Also on bottom of that linked page is one of his earlier interviews at verdict time with another SA Law Soc President, again DJ asks more incisive questions than some of the SA investigative journos - "how that can that be?" LOL

Thanks for the link, cottonweaver.
However, it is not judge Greenland interview, but it takes one to an interview of some Llewellyn Curlewis (South African legal expert and President of the Law Society of the Northern Provinces) and is from September, 2014. Must be some mixup while copy/pasting.

 

[Colin de France]

Wouldn't it be a bit like when you get imprints from clothing on knees /elbows etc when you have been leaning /kneeling heavily?

...There wasn't enough time for that....you can always try it for yourself.....you just can't do it......the result is that the vest acts as a cushion unlike a metal object which leaves a mark.....not only that but Reeva was practically dead when she fell (if she fell) on the rack so the bruises didn't have time to form.......

 

[aftermath]

...There wasn't enough time for that....you can always try it for yourself.....you just can't do it......the result is that the vest acts as a cushion unlike a metal object which leaves a mark.....not only that but Reeva was practically dead when she fell (if she fell) on the rack so the bruises didn't have time to form.......

I don't know... I think the lines look like the fabric lines from the vest material and the shape of the two bruises looked like the shape of bullet graze wounds (not that I have seen many! But I did have a quick look on some forensic pathology sites about graze wounds) The impact of whatever caused the graze wound (if that's what it is) could have caused the fabric markings (if that's what they are). But it will certainly be interesting to read Mr Fossil and Judge Judi's blog thoughts as they appear to have done a lot of research!