PA - Ellen Greenberg, 27, Philly teacher’s brutal stabbing, ruled suicide but possible homicide, Jan 2011

[Lisbeth_S]

Still 100% sure not suicide imo!

However, after reading that 30-some page report posted earlier, I will admit to less surety in my mind that she was killed by the man who found her dead, her fiance. I still think he's more likely than some mystery perpetrator who no one saw, and who left no trace of him or herself, and who would have had no way to access and exit the apartment without leaving evidence of having done so.

But after reading the report and the opinions of her friends and family and co-workers regarding the fiance, I was very surprised that no one had one bad word to say about him or their relationship. Seems like everyone they knew thought they were in a loving relationship and that she was more than happy with him and excited about their upcoming wedding. I can't believe absolutely no one who they talked to after her death recalled any even minor incidents of possible abuse, and no one admitted to any suspicions of abuse on his part. No one found anything not to like about him. No one said they'd ever seen her scared of him or thought of him as a controlling boyfriend.

But the facts of the murder scene and all the events of that day remain the same, and imo, they all still point directly to him as her killer. (I will not entertain the possibility that she killed herself, given her wounds as outlined in the autopsy report.) So what this says to me is that it is really scary how well he hid his true nature from everyone, and possibly from Ellen herself as well. Or perhaps she was the only one who saw what he was really like, but he kept it hidden from the world. Whether she knew it before that day or not, I think she saw it that day, if only briefly as he attacked her and she succumbed to the devastating injuries he inflicted on her, imo.

I agree!

The fact that not one person has seen behaviours of concerns or expressed concerns in regard to their relationship is weird IF it indeed was the fiancé.
In addition to this, watching the video of him coming out of the elevator in the way to the gym, he looked really chilled, IIRC he was looking at his phone with no hints of stress or tension. I find it hard to believe that he would look like that just after such a frenzied attack. IF he really did it, he must be a real psycho.
And I am still not convinced he did.

But the suicide theory seems really left field too IMO.
I mean, seeing just the picture below would be enough for me to at least classify the manner of death as undetermined. (screenshot from this court tv show)
Sure if I try and reach far behind my neck I can kinda get my hand in a position that may get close to those knives, but having enough strength and momentum to stab myself over and over again in that position seems incredibly difficult (and improbable).
Moreover, why would you not just stab yourself in the heart straight away; why would you try and go into such a weird position when you have so many vital organs very accessible at the front of your body? Even just a stab to the groin could kill you in minutes by haemorrhage from the Femoral artery...I can't think of why she would have gone to the extent, unless she had a crazy masterplan to try and frame her fiancé.

It's all too weird and the lack of an investigation makes me so mad!
I can't believe this is the end of the story for her.

 

[MrEmc]

That’s significant. The pounding could have been a show. No one seeing or hearing the biggest slam of the door being broken into, the amount of time it should have taken to break in if the latch was on, the “lie” about the security guard being there together should be enough to say, at minimum, “Undetermined”.

(bbm above and below)

I thought of that, but here's one thing that bugs me:

If SG intended to put on a show/establish an alibi, why continue knocking/pounding on the door after a neighbor witnessed him being locked out of the apartment?

Neighbor A exited the elevator onto the sixth floor "sometime between 5:30 and 5:45pm" and saw SG "knocking on the apartment door and asking to be let inside. After this initial encounter, this neighbor went into their apartment and overheard Ellen's fiance continuing to knock on his apartment door." After approximately 15 minutes in their apartment, Neighbor A walked back into the hallway and had a conversation with SG, ending with this statement to police: "it was clear it [the door] was latched."

Setting aside whether one believes SG latched it himself prior, if SG wanted to put on a show/establish a corroborating witness that he was locked out of his apartment, he accomplished this by 5:45 or 6pm.

However, SG kept going:

Neighbor B exited the elevator onto the sixth floor "sometime after 6:00 pm" (if both witness timelines are accurate, this occurs after the above witness encounter), and saw SG pounding on the door and yelling "Ellen, Ellen, open the door."

pg 11: https://dig.abclocal.go.com/wpvi/pdf/101325-wpvi-ellen-greenberg-death-dr-simon-review-PDF.pdf

 

[sunspun]

Against All Evidence: The Death of Ellen Greenberg Somehow Ruled a Suicide... Again

Fourteen years later, twenty stab wounds, eleven bruises, and still... the City of Philadelphia insists that Ellen Greenberg killed herself.

thelibertyline.com

This article sums it up for me.

"Fourteen years later, twenty stab wounds, eleven bruises, and still... the City of Philadelphia insists that Ellen Greenberg killed herself."

The City of Philadelphia has lost ALL credibility then, imo. And worse than that, because, as this says, they "insist" she killed herself, even after intense scrutiny by outside parties, to include much more than "just" her family (who might understandably have non-logical, emotional reasons to refuse to believe this was suicide). To again to insist that this was suicide, even after a supposedly serious, professional (which should mean unbiased and objective) review of their initial finding of suicide, says to me that their ulterior motives are not pure, and that they do not care that these motives are being publicly revealed by stating what they declare to be their "final" word on this case.

I simply cannot understand what it would take to so severely and openly (brazenly, uncompassionately) compromise their integrity by releasing this review as their final statement on this case, even in the face of such awful evidence to the contrary, and even under so much questioning by so many learned people who have publicly doubted them and published their disagreement with their findings.

It is as baffling as it is disgusting.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I don't think having subtherapeutic levels of Clonazepam and zolpidem in one's system would necessarily make one unable to fight back. It's not impossible, but improbable IMO.
It is true that people can react/be affected differently to similar concentration of CNS-affecting drugs owing to a variety of factors (Pharmacology education project), but I would think that this would have been somehow manifest by that time because IIRC she had been taking those meds for a little while. I.e. if at those doses she was becoming impaired, this would have been noticed and I don't remember hearing people reporting that she looked slow or less reactive (to the point of not reacting to being stabbed) since she started taking them.

Well, Ambien is a sleep medication. So likely, it wouldn't be called "impairment" since presumably, she's taking it at night and sleeping. So no, I wouldn't expect anyone to say she's impaired. But if you take Ambien during the day and then try to do usual daytime things, like drive a car, you will be impaired. Klonopin isn't a sleep aid, but when mixed with Ambien, the combination can impair a person because they'd be somewhat sedated.

The one other thing to consider is that psych medications can have paradoxical reactions (especially benzos), but those are usually excitatory in nature and would not make one impaired to the point of inability to react (they would in fact do the opposite).

Paradoxcial reactions are as rare as anaphylaxis. They're not that common. When they happen, the medication is discontinued. It doesn't happen spontaneously in someone who's been on it a while. If she had a paradoxical reaction to benzos, she wouldn't be on them long.

 

[snarast]

(bbm above and below)

I thought of that, but here's one thing that bugs me:

If SG intended to put on a show/establish an alibi, why continue knocking/pounding on the door after a neighbor witnessed him being locked out of the apartment?

Neighbor A exited the elevator onto the sixth floor "sometime between 5:30 and 5:45pm" and saw SG "knocking on the apartment door and asking to be let inside. After this initial encounter, this neighbor went into their apartment and overheard Ellen's fiance continuing to knock on his apartment door." After approximately 15 minutes in their apartment, Neighbor A walked back into the hallway and had a conversation with SG, ending with this statement to police: "it was clear it [the door] was latched."

Setting aside whether one believes SG latched it himself prior, if SG wanted to put on a show/establish a corroborating witness that he was locked out of his apartment, he accomplished this by 5:45 or 6pm.

However, SG kept going:

Neighbor B exited the elevator onto the sixth floor "sometime after 6:00 pm" (if both witness timelines are accurate, this occurs after the above witness encounter), and saw SG pounding on the door and yelling "Ellen, Ellen, open the door."

pg 11: https://dig.abclocal.go.com/wpvi/pdf/101325-wpvi-ellen-greenberg-death-dr-simon-review-PDF.pdf

It’s undeniably important to get a better understanding of the witnesses’ reports.

It might not have been obvious from my previous posts, but I really wish this is not the DV-associated homicide it looks like. Because everything points to that those two loved each other and SG grieved this immense loss - that much is clear.

His calling her his love muffin in the 603 documentary was so sweet.

 

[rescuemom]

I believe she was murdered. IMO, SG came from privilege and was possibly connected so that this murder was buried and ignored. I just saw a channel with Samantha Benigno called 'I Don't Belong Here' on YT. She is a behavior psychologist, etc where she analyzes cases from that standpoint, not LE or an attorney. In her recent stream she analyzed the 911 call. Interesting. So am I correct to assume the latest ruling still says it was a suicide and where can it go from here? Someone wants this buried for good.

 

[Occam's Zebra]

It’s undeniably important to get a better understanding of the witnesses’ reports.

It might not have been obvious from my previous posts, but I really wish this is not the DV-associated homicide it looks like. Because everything points to that those two loved each other and SG grieved this immense loss - that much is clear.

His calling her his love muffin in the 603 documentary was so sweet.

Both things can be true - it is a DV-associated homicide AND he loved her, grieved her loss, and had pet names for her.
'
And it really doesn't matter if anyone else saw any evidence of stress or tension or DV in their relationship! Abusers are very good at hiding it. But EG was less so - she had been having problems with anxiety and had stopped wearing her engagement ring. She had talked to her parents about coming back to live with them. Those are all signs of something being very wrong.

IMHO, SG is an intelligent guy who acted violently in the spur of the moment and then worked out a way to cover his tracks. Her body was clearly moved from its original position. There's a blunt-force trauma wound to the top of her head - did she do that to herself as well? Then 20 stab wounds, many of which are not biomechanically possible for someone to do to themselves.

All MOO.

 

[squareandrabbet]

It seems to me as if the facts are:

(1), the chain on the door has been thoroughly demonstrated to mean nothing in the grand scheme of things, and to be easily unlocked by someone from the outside.

(2) Sam G. comes from a well-to-do family and almost assuredly has some local Philadelphia connections.

(3) It's ridiculous for anyone to maintain that someone trying to kill themselves is going to stab themselves 20 times; this is clearly an attack by an outside person.

None of these things preclude some stranger heretofore never introduced into the equation doing Ellen harm, but it certainly doesn't rule out Sam either.

 

[Lisbeth_S]

A few more thoughts on the stranger/fiancé thing:

1. Digging for and alternative theory to the fiancé, I remembered that there were no cameras in the hallways of the complex, there is only video of people in the lobby and getting in and out the lifts.
So what about a neighbour living on the same floor as Sam and Ellen? knocked at their door after Sam went to the gym, killed Ellen and closing the door behind him accidentally engaged the latch (which I think has been already discussed and found to be possible IIRC). There would be no trace of them in the cctv footage.
Admittedly, it is far fetched, especially because they would have likely left some sort of trace evidence behind, a trail of blood from Ellen's apartment, DNA, fingerprint, etc... I also think that Ellen was attacked first from behind so this would not make sense in the neighbour scenario.
Personally I discount this as a possibility, but it would have been good to at least exclude it from an investigative perspective.

2. Why did the fiancé call his cousin and his uncle (they are both lawyers!) in the time whilst he was locked outside the apartment? what did he need from them? What can they possibly do for him in that moment if the priority is to unlock that door?
It seems strange to me.

MOO

 

[snarast]

A few more thoughts on the stranger/fiancé thing:

1. Digging for and alternative theory to the fiancé, I remembered that there were no cameras in the hallways of the complex, there is only video of people in the lobby and getting in and out the lifts.
So what about a neighbour living on the same floor as Sam and Ellen? knocked at their door after Sam went to the gym, killed Ellen and closing the door behind him accidentally engaged the latch (which I think has been already discussed and found to be possible IIRC). There would be no trace of them in the cctv footage.
Admittedly, it is far fetched, especially because they would have likely left some sort of trace evidence behind, a trail of blood from Ellen's apartment, DNA, fingerprint, etc... I also think that Ellen was attacked first from behind so this would not make sense in the neighbour scenario.
Personally I discount this as a possibility, but it would have been good to at least exclude it from an investigative perspective.

2. Why did the fiancé call his cousin and his uncle (they are both lawyers!) in the time whilst he was locked outside the apartment? what did he need from them? What can they possibly do for him in that moment if the priority is to unlock that door?
It seems strange to me.

MOO

These two thoughts placed together are especially interesting. It’s so hard to imagine you’d call your relatives if you just killed your fiancée. But I guess every family is different. Hmm.

IMHOO

 

[friendlysleuther]

"Fourteen years later, twenty stab wounds, eleven bruises, and still... the City of Philadelphia insists that Ellen Greenberg killed herself."

The City of Philadelphia has lost ALL credibility then, imo. And worse than that, because, as this says, they "insist" she killed herself, even after intense scrutiny by outside parties, to include much more than "just" her family (who might understandably have non-logical, emotional reasons to refuse to believe this was suicide). To again to insist that this was suicide, even after a supposedly serious, professional (which should mean unbiased and objective) review of their initial finding of suicide, says to me that their ulterior motives are not pure, and that they do not care that these motives are being publicly revealed by stating what they declare to be their "final" word on this case.

I simply cannot understand what it would take to so severely and openly (brazenly, uncompassionately) compromise their integrity by releasing this review as their final statement on this case, even in the face of such awful evidence to the contrary, and even under so much questioning by so many learned people who have publicly doubted them and published their disagreement with their findings.

It is as baffling as it is disgusting.

Because they don’t want a lawsuit

 

[friendlysleuther]

It seems to me as if the facts are:

(1), the chain on the door has been thoroughly demonstrated to mean nothing in the grand scheme of things, and to be easily unlocked by someone from the outside.

(2) Sam G. comes from a well-to-do family and almost assuredly has some local Philadelphia connections.

(3) It's ridiculous for anyone to maintain that someone trying to kill themselves is going to stab themselves 20 times; this is clearly an attack by an outside person.

None of these things preclude some stranger heretofore never introduced into the equation doing Ellen harm, but it certainly doesn't rule out Sam either.

Don’t forget the evidence of strangulation.

 

[Lisbeth_S]

These two thoughts placed together are especially interesting. It’s so hard to imagine you’d call your relatives if you just killed your fiancée. But I guess every family is different. Hmm.

IMHOO

I agree
But maybe you would call the two relatives who are lawyers if you had committed a crime...

The reasons why it's nagging are multiple:
- the why: the fact the calls happen in the first place is odd, especially when the priority is to get access to the apartment, why would you go on making social phone calls
- the when: the timing, between 6.25 and 6.30 - a whole hour into trying to access the apartment and just before calling 911
- the who: the people he called are the 2 lawyers; personally the only people I would want to call are ones that can help me access the apartment (a locksmith, fire dept/police, etc)

The only unifying reason I can think of is that after repeatedly asking management to open the door he wasn't sure if it would be legal for him to breach the door himself, so he called them for legal advice. Which again, would sound a bit strange if you're worried that your fiancé is in danger.

 

[Serononin]

A few more thoughts on the stranger/fiancé thing:

1. Digging for and alternative theory to the fiancé, I remembered that there were no cameras in the hallways of the complex, there is only video of people in the lobby and getting in and out the lifts.
So what about a neighbour living on the same floor as Sam and Ellen? knocked at their door after Sam went to the gym, killed Ellen and closing the door behind him accidentally engaged the latch (which I think has been already discussed and found to be possible IIRC). There would be no trace of them in the cctv footage.
Admittedly, it is far fetched, especially because they would have likely left some sort of trace evidence behind, a trail of blood from Ellen's apartment, DNA, fingerprint, etc... I also think that Ellen was attacked first from behind so this would not make sense in the neighbour scenario.
Personally I discount this as a possibility, but it would have been good to at least exclude it from an investigative perspective.

2. Why did the fiancé call his cousin and his uncle (they are both lawyers!) in the time whilst he was locked outside the apartment? what did he need from them? What can they possibly do for him in that moment if the priority is to unlock that door?
It seems strange to me.

MOO

Do you know if there were any cameras in the stairwells? If there weren't, then hypothetically it could also have been someone from a different floor

 

[Lisbeth_S]

Do you know if there were any cameras in the stairwells? If there weren't, then hypothetically it could also have been someone from a different floor

True that.

I have not seen any mention of cameras in stairwells anywhere.

 

[arielilane]

I received approval from Websleuths to post this video. This is the only video from Gavin Fish that has been approved by Websleuths at this time.

Ellen's parents talk about abuse Ellen may have experienced.
Well worth a listen. jmo

Oct. 15, 2025

Ellen Greenberg's Parents Join Me to Discuss Their Fight for Justice and What Comes Next​

Josh and Sandee Greenberg, the parents of Ellen Greenberg, join me for an in-depth conversation about their ongoing fight for justice in their daughter’s case. We’ll discuss the latest developments, their reaction to the recent decision coming out of the Philadelphia ME's office, and what comes next in their pursuit of truth.

Ellen’s story has captured national attention for over a decade, raising serious questions about how her death was investigated and classified. Tonight, Josh and Sandee share where things stand now, how they’ve kept going after years of legal and emotional battles, and what they want the public to know.









Timestamp 11:00
I think she was covering up by saying that that she had problems at school.

She didn't want to say that she was being abused.

I think you're right.

I And from what I know about

abuse, that's what abusers do. They don't they don't say what they say they deserve it almost.

Well, I had wondered if it was subconscious in Ellen. I like she was saying out loud, you know,

work is stressful and this is really hard and I I you know, I want to come home and stuff like

that. But it was a subconscious thing. She wasn't connecting the dots. I mean, I think she was in

love with Sam Goldberg. I I think they had a loving relationship until they didn't. And I

think we have to get home research here on abuse. The abuser feels they deserve it. The abuser is a

victim. She was a victim. And I don't know if she loves Sam Goldberg or anybody, but she was not

going to say that she was abused. They don't say that. She made up she made she made up an excuse.

School was the excuse. She had pressure at school. But it's all baloney. Yeah.





Timestamp 23:24
So, it makes me wonder if if things were, you know,

all was well in the household until until the very end.

It wasn't. Ellen was being Ellen was being

abused by somebody. Ellen was packing up that day to leave. The engagement ring was on the table,

the night table. Her makeups was all stacked, ready to go. Her car was gassed up. It was

all over. Ellen had had even commissioned or approached somebody about moving out of the

apartment. And when they asked about is the fiance going to come, the answer was no.

 

[MrEmc]

I received approval from Websleuths to post this video. This is the only video from Gavin Fish that has been approved by Websleuths at this time.

Ellen's parents talk about abuse Ellen may have experienced.
Well worth a listen. jmo

Oct. 15, 2025

Ellen Greenberg's Parents Join Me to Discuss Their Fight for Justice and What Comes Next​

Josh and Sandee Greenberg, the parents of Ellen Greenberg, join me for an in-depth conversation about their ongoing fight for justice in their daughter’s case. We’ll discuss the latest developments, their reaction to the recent decision coming out of the Philadelphia ME's office, and what comes next in their pursuit of truth.

Ellen’s story has captured national attention for over a decade, raising serious questions about how her death was investigated and classified. Tonight, Josh and Sandee share where things stand now, how they’ve kept going after years of legal and emotional battles, and what they want the public to know.









Timestamp 11:00
I think she was covering up by saying that that she had problems at school.

She didn't want to say that she was being abused.

I think you're right.

I And from what I know about

abuse, that's what abusers do. They don't they don't say what they say they deserve it almost.

Well, I had wondered if it was subconscious in Ellen. I like she was saying out loud, you know,

work is stressful and this is really hard and I I you know, I want to come home and stuff like

that. But it was a subconscious thing. She wasn't connecting the dots. I mean, I think she was in

love with Sam Goldberg. I I think they had a loving relationship until they didn't. And I

think we have to get home research here on abuse. The abuser feels they deserve it. The abuser is a

victim. She was a victim. And I don't know if she loves Sam Goldberg or anybody, but she was not

going to say that she was abused. They don't say that. She made up she made she made up an excuse.

School was the excuse. She had pressure at school. But it's all baloney. Yeah.





Timestamp 23:24
So, it makes me wonder if if things were, you know,

all was well in the household until until the very end.

It wasn't. Ellen was being Ellen was being

abused by somebody. Ellen was packing up that day to leave. The engagement ring was on the table,

the night table. Her makeups was all stacked, ready to go. Her car was gassed up. It was

all over. Ellen had had even commissioned or approached somebody about moving out of the

apartment. And when they asked about is the fiance going to come, the answer was no.

Wow. I was unaware she was packing up that day to leave. Was this mentioned before? Perhaps to other teachers/friends?

 

[friendlysleuther]

Nancy Grace & Joseph Scott Morgan presented this image of Ellen’s neck during a Crime on.

Image 1 is mine, the second is verified via CourtTvs post as shown here

I can see fingernail marks, thumbprint bruise marks and potentially petechiae or blood. What do you see?

 

[snarast]

Nancy Grace & Joseph Scott Morgan presented this image of Ellen’s neck during a Crime on.

Image 1 is mine, the second is verified via CourtTvs post as shown here

I can see fingernail marks, thumbprint bruise marks and potentially petechiae or blood. What do you see?

It’s faint but symmetrical. Apparently, under the skin the evidence for strangulation was more pronounced. I forget the source of that info though.

IMHOO

 

[Lisbeth_S]

It’s faint but symmetrical. Apparently, under the skin the evidence for strangulation was more pronounced. I forget the source of that info though.

IMHOO

I read it in the latest ME report (the 32 pages one) both in Dr Wayne Ross's consultative report and in the ME's own review/observations of the autopsy's photos.

ETA: the ME Dr Simon noted the haemorrhage on the anterior neck muscles and small bruises on the skin (page 8) but she opined that these are not likely signs of strangulation (page 30). Dr Ross interpreted those as signs of strangulation.