PA PA - Kortne Ciera Stouffer, 21, Palmyra, 29 July 2012 - #5

[JoCoKSEyes]

-snipped- On that night in Harrisburg, for example, when Kortne argued with a young man and his girlfriend, she was thrown out of the bar. Stouffer said Kortne knew the man, but he doesn’t know the source of the dispute. -snipped-

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2012/08/kortne_stouffer_disappeared_am.html

Is this the same man (AB) she owed money to? Because if so, do you think maybe that might have been the source of the dispute?

I think the article you linked was written before the article where SS says she owed a man money.

Piecemeal and selective distribution of the facts in this case like so many others. Frustrating.

 

[JoCoKSEyes]

Never mind. It's in that same article.

 

[alliemay]

http://www.abc27.com/story/19277363...yra-woman-talks-about-night-out-in-harrisburg

Not sure if the above link is a reliable source, but I wondered where they went after the bar close, if I am reading it correctly looks like they went for pizza.

 

[Meems]

I don't believe Kortne, CP, MR or the "others" (who it was reported were in the car with them) .. went for pizza. JL said she saw Kortne "storm by" the pizza shop where JL was sitting. The pizza place is literally a half block from the Hardware Bar on the same side. This is a very common place where people that party downtown visit after drinking.

Having said that .. assuming it was near closing anyhow at the Hardware Bar (thinking that would be why JL was at the pizza place already) let's say around maybe 1:30ish .. If Kortne, MR, CP and the "others" left Hbg headed for Palmyra it would take roughly a half hr which would put MR at home around 2:00 (which this was reported as so) ..

NOW .. It was also reported that MR lived blocks from Kortne .. BUT Kortne was reported arriving home around 3:00 (which we can assume as so since LE was called for altercation at 3:15) .. where was CP and Kortne from 2:00 am until 3:00 am? Are we to assume they took the "others" home? WHY have we not heard more on who these "others" were .. not even thru the rumor mill ... hhuummmm

 

[alliemay]

I don't believe Kortne, CP, MR or the "others" (who it was reported were in the car with them) .. went for pizza. JL said she saw Kortne "storm by" the pizza shop where JL was sitting. The pizza place is literally a half block from the Hardware Bar on the same side. This is a very common place where people that party downtown visit after drinking.

Having said that .. assuming it was near closing anyhow at the Hardware Bar (thinking that would be why JL was at the pizza place already) let's say around maybe 1:30ish .. If Kortne, MR, CP and the "others" left Hbg headed for Palmyra it would take roughly a half hr which would put MR at home around 2:00 (which this was reported as so) ..

NOW .. It was also reported that MR lived blocks from Kortne .. BUT Kortne was reported arriving home around 3:00 (which we can assume as so since LE was called for altercation at 3:15) .. where was CP and Kortne from 2:00 am until 3:00 am? Are we to assume they took the "others" home? WHY have we not heard more on who these "others" were .. not even thru the rumor mill ... hhuummmm

You are right the times don't add up unless someone can tell us where they were between two and three a.m. If they dropped MR off at 2 am and he lives on their block it would not take them an hour to get home.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/21/kortne-stouffer-milton-rodriguez-cody-pruett_n_1818359.html

 

[alliemay]

Tried to find the names of the "others" that were in the car that night but couldn't, the other night I thought I read, that when they dropped MR off they also dropped another friend off there with him.

So...Gas Station Pub, she was there by herself, then MR showed up, she asks for a ride to the Hardware bar, argument with a woman, they leave, go for pizza then drop off MR 2 am.....then who knows where they went before they get back to the apartment at 3 am.

http://www.abc27.com/story/19309331...s-car-following-kortne-stouffer-disappearance

 

[Meems]

I do not believe they went for pizza (not that it matters to the timeline) .. the pizza place has a very large window that is on the main street .. you can easily see people walking by .. this is where I believe JL saw Kortne "storm" by .. Other than that .. people often times get their pizza and hang out on the sidewalk and eat it .. again .. you will see people walk by. It's not that you have to order your pizza an wait for it .. this is a VERY popular place from about 1:00 am until 3:00 am (ish) .. they have pizza there and waiting .. you just pay for a slice or two and step out on the "street" (sidewalk)

 

[eagle5516]

I don't believe Kortne, CP, MR or the "others" (who it was reported were in the car with them) .. went for pizza. JL said she saw Kortne "storm by" the pizza shop where JL was sitting. The pizza place is literally a half block from the Hardware Bar on the same side. This is a very common place where people that party downtown visit after drinking.

Having said that .. assuming it was near closing anyhow at the Hardware Bar (thinking that would be why JL was at the pizza place already) let's say around maybe 1:30ish .. If Kortne, MR, CP and the "others" left Hbg headed for Palmyra it would take roughly a half hr which would put MR at home around 2:00 (which this was reported as so) ..

NOW .. It was also reported that MR lived blocks from Kortne .. BUT Kortne was reported arriving home around 3:00 (which we can assume as so since LE was called for altercation at 3:15) .. where was CP and Kortne from 2:00 am until 3:00 am? Are we to assume they took the "others" home? WHY have we not heard more on who these "others" were .. not even thru the rumor mill ... hhuummmm

I am thinking that the identity of the "others" may be the key to this case. It is possible that LE and witnesses have not named these people because they are not suspects and they don't want to draw unnecessary attention to them. However, it seems odd that across the board, none of the people who have publicly referenced the "others" have given their names (SS, MR, & KS's friend at the pizza place). There may other reasons for not naming these people (fear of retaliation, instruction from LE or KS's family).

Interestingly, I do not believe that CP (purportedly the last one to see KS alive) has mentioned the presence of these people at all, at least not after the parties leave the Hardware Bar. Please correct me if I am wrong about this. While SS (who has spoken privately with LE & CP) says that KS fought with a "man who she owed money to" at the bar, MR (who have been interviewed by LE 5xs and had his car & home searched by the police) says that KS fought with an unidentified woman at the bar. Other witnesses, I'm not sure who, may have said that KS fought with both. Is it possible that MR is deliberately painting the encounter as more of a "cat fight" to distract from the underlying conflict between KS and the male "debt holder"?

Interested in your thoughts on this line of thinking. Maybe I'm reading too much into the different witness accounts. There was certainly drinking involved that night, and maybe there are differences between SS's account and MR's version because SS wasn't actually there that night and his info is secondhand.

I don't know what to make of the missing hour in the timeline. There could be a benign explanation. Maybe this is when they somehow picked up KS's car from the Gas Station Pub, or they parked somewhere to smoke something on the way home. Or, there could be more too it. Interesting that the "others" seem to have been present during the missing hour (according to MR). If MR has something to hide and the "others" were involved in KS's disappearance, why would MR put them in the car at 2 a.m.? Could be because MR has nothing to hide and these are just the facts, or it's convenient for him because it's part of his story that he was dropped off at 2 a.m. Sort of like saying, "Last I saw her, everything was fine, but there were 2-3 more people in the car, why don't you talk to them."

This reminds me a little of the Lauren Spierer timeline at this point. In that case, it seems there were unidentified "guests" who may have been among the last people to see her alive. No connection to this case, but interesting that both cases have unidentified people around at the very end.

 

[StacyMarie83]

I am thinking that the identity of the "others" may be the key to this case. It is possible that LE and witnesses have not named these people because they are not suspects and they don't want to draw unnecessary attention to them. However, it seems odd that across the board, none of the people who have publicly referenced the "others" have given their names (SS, MR, & KS's friend at the pizza place). There may other reasons for not naming these people (fear of retaliation, instruction from LE or KS's family).

Interestingly, I do not believe that CP (purportedly the last one to see KS alive) has mentioned the presence of these people at all, at least not after the parties leave the Hardware Bar. Please correct me if I am wrong about this. While SS (who has spoken privately with LE & CP) says that KS fought with a "man who she owed money to" at the bar, MR (who have been interviewed by LE 5xs and had his car & home searched by the police) says that KS fought with an unidentified woman at the bar. Other witnesses, I'm not sure who, may have said that KS fought with both. Is it possible that MR is deliberately painting the encounter as more of a "cat fight" to distract from the underlying conflict between KS and the male "debt holder"?

Interested in your thoughts on this line of thinking. Maybe I'm reading too much into the different witness accounts. There was certainly drinking involved that night, and maybe there are differences between SS's account and MR's version because SS wasn't actually there that night and his info is secondhand.

I don't know what to make of the missing hour in the timeline. There could be a benign explanation. Maybe this is when they somehow picked up KS's car from the Gas Station Pub, or they parked somewhere to smoke something on the way home. Or, there could be more too it. Interesting that the "others" seem to have been present during the missing hour (according to MR). If MR has something to hide and the "others" were involved in KS's disappearance, why would MR put them in the car at 2 a.m.? Could be because MR has nothing to hide and these are just the facts, or it's convenient for him because it's part of his story that he was dropped off at 2 a.m. Sort of like saying, "Last I saw her, everything was fine, but there were 2-3 more people in the car, why don't you talk to them."

This reminds me a little of the Lauren Spierer timeline at this point. In that case, it seems there were unidentified "guests" who may have been among the last people to see her alive. No connection to this case, but interesting that both cases have unidentified people around at the very end.

agreed! this is starting to look more and more like spier's case I hung out w/ kids like this (in ks's case) and I know they don't like to tattle---i just can't imagine myself, knowing something and not telling someone! There's got to be one person (i hope) that knows the most minuet detail and can blow this whole thing open....which I believe the same about the spiers case as well.

That hour bothers me. They could of easily met up w/ someone, went somewhere, invited people over, etc etc. or it very well could of been innocent....we need to know! The lack of information is annoying to say the least.

Are kids now-a-days smarter and more able to hide a body w/ out it being recovered?!

 

[Meems]

Stouffer said he has spoken with everyone involved in the early morning disturbance. He said he’s also learned of potentially dangerous circumstances beyond his daughter’s immediate neighborhood

On that night in Harrisburg, for example, when Kortne argued with a young man and his girlfriend, she was thrown out of the bar. Stouffer said Kortne knew the man, but he doesn’t know the source of the dispute.

He said another man had been angry with Kortne because she owed him money.

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2012/08/kortne_stouffer_disappeared_am.html

According to SS's statements it sounds like Kortne knew the man in the altercation and not necessarily the mans girlfriend .. This could be as deviant as her involment with drug trafficking or as innocent as her speaking to him and his girlfriend getting jealous .. shifting the argument to Kortne and the "jealous girlfriend" ... MR could have been totally unaware of this confrontation until Kortne walked up to him and said "we have to leave" .. which at that point .. it would look like to MR that the altercation was strictly between Kortne and the woman. It gets INSANELY crowded in that bar .. I mean unable to move at times depending on what band is playing. Had she been coming back from the bathroom or even the bar (which might be two places she might have gone by herself) and run into this "mystery man" and his girlfriend .. struck up an innocent conversation with him and his girlfriend (possibly having too much to drink) might have gotten jealous and said something to Kortne and Kortne, possibly being in a fiesty mood given the days previous events may have lashed back at the girl.

(This to me seems like the most likely senerio) ... It would either be way too coincidental if this man and his girlfriend were party to her disappearance or part of an elaborate set up with a "chance" (planned) meeting with the man and his girlfriend at the Hardware Bar from the beginning (starting with the Gas Station Pub) .. possible I guess, but IMO .. unlikely.

 

[alliemay]

Stouffer said he has spoken with everyone involved in the early morning disturbance. He said he’s also learned of potentially dangerous circumstances beyond his daughter’s immediate neighborhood

On that night in Harrisburg, for example, when Kortne argued with a young man and his girlfriend, she was thrown out of the bar. Stouffer said Kortne knew the man, but he doesn’t know the source of the dispute.

He said another man had been angry with Kortne because she owed him money.

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2012/08/kortne_stouffer_disappeared_am.html

According to SS's statements it sounds like Kortne knew the man in the altercation and not necessarily the mans girlfriend .. This could be as deviant as her involment with drug trafficking or as innocent as her speaking to him and his girlfriend getting jealous .. shifting the argument to Kortne and the "jealous girlfriend" ... MR could have been totally unaware of this confrontation until Kortne walked up to him and said "we have to leave" .. which at that point .. it would look like to MR that the altercation was strictly between Kortne and the woman. It gets INSANELY crowded in that bar .. I mean unable to move at times depending on what band is playing. Had she been coming back from the bathroom or even the bar (which might be two places she might have gone by herself) and run into this "mystery man" and his girlfriend .. struck up an innocent conversation with him and his girlfriend (possibly having too much to drink) might have gotten jealous and said something to Kortne and Kortne, possibly being in a fiesty mood given the days previous events may have lashed back at the girl.

(This to me seems like the most likely senerio) ... It would either be way too coincidental if this man and his girlfriend were party to her disappearance or part of an elaborate set up with a "chance" (planned) meeting with the man and his girlfriend at the Hardware Bar from the beginning (starting with the Gas Station Pub) .. possible I guess, but IMO .. unlikely.

Good post I agree.....in your second paragraph the words "set up" stood out for me, not a set up by the couple she had words with but a set up by someone else. Just throwing thoughts out.

 

[PBJ2585]

Agreed! I was never sure if it was truly confirmed she was really kicked out of the bar or not. Articles don't always tell the true facts.

Also, why didn't the neighbors mention the "others"? That seems odd. They mentioned KS and CP but no others. I can see friends not wanting to snitch but why would the neighbors care? Maybe the "others" were dropped off before KS and CP went home. Perhaps CP and KS left again to meet up with them later. I don't know. AHHHHH!

Stouffer said he has spoken with everyone involved in the early morning disturbance. He said he’s also learned of potentially dangerous circumstances beyond his daughter’s immediate neighborhood

On that night in Harrisburg, for example, when Kortne argued with a young man and his girlfriend, she was thrown out of the bar. Stouffer said Kortne knew the man, but he doesn’t know the source of the dispute.

He said another man had been angry with Kortne because she owed him money.

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2012/08/kortne_stouffer_disappeared_am.html

According to SS's statements it sounds like Kortne knew the man in the altercation and not necessarily the mans girlfriend .. This could be as deviant as her involment with drug trafficking or as innocent as her speaking to him and his girlfriend getting jealous .. shifting the argument to Kortne and the "jealous girlfriend" ... MR could have been totally unaware of this confrontation until Kortne walked up to him and said "we have to leave" .. which at that point .. it would look like to MR that the altercation was strictly between Kortne and the woman. It gets INSANELY crowded in that bar .. I mean unable to move at times depending on what band is playing. Had she been coming back from the bathroom or even the bar (which might be two places she might have gone by herself) and run into this "mystery man" and his girlfriend .. struck up an innocent conversation with him and his girlfriend (possibly having too much to drink) might have gotten jealous and said something to Kortne and Kortne, possibly being in a fiesty mood given the days previous events may have lashed back at the girl.

(This to me seems like the most likely senerio) ... It would either be way too coincidental if this man and his girlfriend were party to her disappearance or part of an elaborate set up with a "chance" (planned) meeting with the man and his girlfriend at the Hardware Bar from the beginning (starting with the Gas Station Pub) .. possible I guess, but IMO .. unlikely.

 

[eagle5516]

Stouffer said he has spoken with everyone involved in the early morning disturbance. He said he’s also learned of potentially dangerous circumstances beyond his daughter’s immediate neighborhood

On that night in Harrisburg, for example, when Kortne argued with a young man and his girlfriend, she was thrown out of the bar. Stouffer said Kortne knew the man, but he doesn’t know the source of the dispute.

He said another man had been angry with Kortne because she owed him money.

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2012/08/kortne_stouffer_disappeared_am.html

According to SS's statements it sounds like Kortne knew the man in the altercation and not necessarily the mans girlfriend .. This could be as deviant as her involment with drug trafficking or as innocent as her speaking to him and his girlfriend getting jealous .. shifting the argument to Kortne and the "jealous girlfriend" ... MR could have been totally unaware of this confrontation until Kortne walked up to him and said "we have to leave" .. which at that point .. it would look like to MR that the altercation was strictly between Kortne and the woman. It gets INSANELY crowded in that bar .. I mean unable to move at times depending on what band is playing. Had she been coming back from the bathroom or even the bar (which might be two places she might have gone by herself) and run into this "mystery man" and his girlfriend .. struck up an innocent conversation with him and his girlfriend (possibly having too much to drink) might have gotten jealous and said something to Kortne and Kortne, possibly being in a fiesty mood given the days previous events may have lashed back at the girl.

(This to me seems like the most likely senerio) ... It would either be way too coincidental if this man and his girlfriend were party to her disappearance or part of an elaborate set up with a "chance" (planned) meeting with the man and his girlfriend at the Hardware Bar from the beginning (starting with the Gas Station Pub) .. possible I guess, but IMO .. unlikely.

Thank you for clearing up SS's statements which suggest that the man at the bar and the person she owed money are separate people. I guess that's why it's best to go back to the original article rather than relying on memory. The line about dangerous circumstances outside of KS's neighborhood, and SS's other reference to KS's new friends being involved in drugs, suggests that SS's real concern is not the neighbors.

I totally agree with your point about the bar fight being coincidental. Beyond being very unlikely, it would have been needlessly complicated for anyone to have set up some sort of random encounter in a crowded bar like that. Besides, the fact the KS knew the bar fight man might support the jealous gf angle.

I know some of us have wondered whether the person KS owed money to may be one of the unidentified people with KS, CP, and MR in the car that night. Do you think this is likely? It helps to separate out the man from the bar fight and this person. It never made sense to me that she would willingly get back into the car with someone who was angry at her over money and whom she fought with earlier that night.

While there are obvious reasons to think she wouldn't want to go anywhere with the person she owed money to, it seems a little more possible than her hanging out with the bar fight man later the same evening. (Plus, I believe KS's friend at the pizza place said that she was with 4 male acquaintances, don't believe she mentioned any women being with KS). If the "money man" is a newer friend, or at least an acquaintance from the drug world, it isn't inconceivable that you would want to remain on good terms with this person by agreeing to go along to a bar. If he was with MR and CP when KS discussed going into the burg with them, KS may have thought it was better to go along rather than looking standoffish or scared because of him. She was friends with MR and CP, so maybe she felt safe going as a group.

Then again, other than total guesswork and maybe a few bizarre anonymous posts, there's nothing definite suggesting that the "money man" was with her that night, or had anything to to with her disappearance. It's convenient for us internet folk to try to tie all the unanswered questions (unidentified "others", bar fight man, money man, missing hour) into a greater theory of the case, but that doesn't mean any of it is likely, or even possible.

Thanks for doing a good job of separating out the bar fight scenario. While maybe it can't be ruled out completely as being related to her disappearance, it seems highly unlikely that the bar fight is related to KS's disappearance. These kinds of things happen all the time in bars.

Money man, CP or MR being responsible, neighbor altercation, or a voluntary runaway by KS all seem more likely to be the real explanation than people from the bar fight.

On a side note, I'm really not a conspiracy theory person at heart, and the police cover-up angle never made much sense to me. I don't have any illusions about the prevalence of police brutality and corruption, but, from a distance I just don't see that here. I know some have discussed a son of LE who clearly has his issues, but it never made sense to me how this was related to KS. That kid went to juvie, has been arrested as an adult and has an active, or at least recent case. In my book, that means he hasn't been given a pass on his behavior (at least in those incidents). If there's any thing suspect, maybe it's the third LE call. Maybe the guy never got out of his vehicle and some of the articles have suggested that he knocked on the door, and it's CYA somehow. We really don't know what happened. Maybe things would have turned out different had he radioed for backup and kicked down the front door, but police get noise calls all the time and maybe LE had had enough of that address for the evening.

The DOJ prosecution of the corrupt police in Shenandoah (which grew out of their obstruction of justice in a fatal hate crime beating) is an example of real police corruption. Everyone says their local police are corrupt, and maybe that's true for an officer or two in every locale, but I'm not buying the police theory here. Not having any direct knowledge of Palmyra, if anyone has more to add on this, I'm interested in hearing more.

 

[Meems]

PBJ ~ My thoughts are that the neighbors didn't mention the "others" because they didn't come back to Kortnes apt with CP and Kortne.

I believe it's possible that CP dropped of MR at 2:00am and then took the "others" home (or to their next destination) .. after CP dropped off the "others" he and Kortne could have at this time stopped by the Gas Station (either service center or pub, wherever it was) and picked up Kortnes car and both could have returned to Kortnes apt. This might account for the hour of time between dropping MR off and the arrival at Kortnes apt.

NOW .. when was it determined that CP would spend the night? It in no way was an impulsive decision, seeing how she was dropped off last. It could have been predetermined thru conversation throughout the evening (that CP spent the night at Kortnes) since her boyfriend was indisposed OR they could have made this decision on the way home from the Hardware Bar, for Kortnes safety, if there were threats hurled at Kortne from either the "mystery man and/or his girlfriend". IF we believe CP & MRs story that it was a chance meeting at the Gas Station Pub then CP was not planning on spending the night there when he and MR went out that night.

If we go with the second reason, then why would this man and/or woman be threatning Kortne???

IF CP was there to "protect" Kortne .. he failed miserably! Which in that case .. he would have an "idea" as to what happened to her .. instead of his claims .. he has no clue.

Who are these "others" and what have they added to the investigation? Are they in fear or to be feared?

If Kortne is in fear .. could she be in hiding somewhere OR are were threats carried out?

SOOOO many theories .. so many twist and turns .. so many players .. a real who done it!

 

[Meems]

My conspiracy theory with LE is more to CYA on the fact that they were among the last to see a missing person during a highly charged incident. They failed to make contact with her during another call immediately following .. and now she's missing.

Yes, there is a connection between the responding officer and a local trouble maker (his son) which according to public records .. Officer L is representing his son in court. Which some may see as him trying to "ease the sentence" for his childs misdoings.
And Yes, the "former" police chief of a neighboring community's son caught an underage drinking charge earlier that same day at Kortnes apt .. So imo there is room for speculation regarding the local PD .. but my speculation is more from the CYA side of things.

 

[Meems]

I am wondering if MRsr (and I may be pushing my luck with TOS rules because he is not a suspect BUT he did make public statements regarding the case and he left police voluntarily search his home) .. if inappropriate, I apologize mods ..

MRsr has an extensive drug related record in PA .. and he is facebook friends with a good number of MRjr's friends .. including Kortne ..

Was MR dropped off first to establish some sort of alibi?

 

[JoCoKSEyes]

I am wondering if MRsr (and I may be pushing my luck with TOS rules because he is not a suspect BUT he did make public statements regarding the case and he left police voluntarily search his home) .. if inappropriate, I apologize mods ..

MRsr has an extensive drug related record in PA .. and he is facebook friends with a good number of MRjr's friends .. including Kortne ..

Was MR dropped off first to establish some sort of alibi?

I'm with you.

 

[Meems]

I also find it odd .. that when MRsr was interviewed by local media, he was quick to defend MR and CP saying he knows both young men and thinks he would notice something different in the way they ate or smoked .. but never mentioned knowing Kortne ... yet he is a facebook friend of hers.

**This could be a media spin on the conversation though too!

 

[Eileen730]

Have they ever said who dropped her car off ?
And when

 

[Eileen730]

This case just seemed to go very quiet very quickly!
Strange!