PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, former district attorney, Bellefonte, 15 Apr 2005 - #17

[J. J. in Phila]

I just don't trust the timeline. I just don't trust he never went home. I don't trust the eye witnesses.
I don't trust that Ray moved the car and then disappeared..what if he was just turning around in that parking lot? I don't think it was Ray because they left a cig ash in the car. I think someone who smokes moved the car, not Ray. Some major BS is being covered up.

Did Ray eat that day? PF already calling police at what 9:30?

it's so suspicious and yet they just dropped it all. mOO

PEF called LE after 11:00 PM.

At least two witnesses said it was RFG and the dog detected his scent in the parking lot. That is just too much corroborating evidence.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Duplicate

 

[minazoe]

I don't care what she says..there was an ash and it's listed in the discovery...mOO

 

[minazoe]

and yes maybe he was there in the parking lot and left the parking lot. I just don't trust it..there is something wrong with this story and not one person saw him walk away from that parking lot , behind it or along the street there..he was not seen again. his scent abruptly ends..like he got in a car...maybe he left in the mini and did not get out of it and walk away, maybe he went elsewhere and that car was returned later. Maybe he just drove into that lot to turn around... and if the police did not want some things to come out, then there is dirt on Ray...

I just don't think this was the looming Sandusky situation...but if it was then Ray got whacked for digging around...could be... these are all guys from back in the day and they have "back in the day"
connections...but getting rid of a DA? you need major league talent for that. But lets face it, it wouldn't be the first time something like this happened. But really they wouldn't have to disappear him..they could have just shot him and left him there..so if he was whacked they took him somewhere else and killed him and probably dumped him in a landfill or in another body of water.

I honestly think something went down and Ray had to move fast...he was not himself, he was not doing well..

I almost feel like he wanted to be seen destroying that computer.

everybody saw him everywhere but no one saw him walk away. mOO

 

[Ozoner]

and yes maybe he was there in the parking lot and left the parking lot. I just don't trust it..there is something wrong with this story and not one person saw him walk away from that parking lot , behind it or along the street there..he was not seen again. his scent abruptly ends..like he got in a car...maybe he left in the mini and did not get out of it and walk away, maybe he went elsewhere and that car was returned later. Maybe he just drove into that lot to turn around... and if the police did not want some things to come out, then there is dirt on Ray...

I just don't think this was the looming Sandusky situation...but if it was then Ray got whacked for digging around...could be... these are all guys from back in the day and they have "back in the day"
connections...but getting rid of a DA? you need major league talent for that. But lets face it, it wouldn't be the first time something like this happened. But really they wouldn't have to disappear him..they could have just shot him and left him there..so if he was whacked they took him somewhere else and killed him and probably dumped him in a landfill or in another body of water.

I honestly think something went down and Ray had to move fast...he was not himself, he was not doing well..

I almost feel like he wanted to be seen destroying that computer.

everybody saw him everywhere but no one saw him walk away. mOO

Ray's behavior points to something voluntary—probably suicide—as does his demeanor in the days and weeks leading up to his disappearance.

Occam's razor says that he went into the river and simply wasn't found. It is very easy to miss a body in the water, even in shallow water. If he stayed stationary, hypothermia would have set in very quickly because the water was very cold. However, if he started swimming, hypothermia would have been delayed because exercise generates heat. And that's what I think probably happened. I think he waited until dusk, walked down to the river, waded in, and started swimming downstream. I think he just kept swimming until his muscles gave out or he passed out. Guys have been shipwrecked in equally cold water and managed to swim for several miles before, so Ray might have made quite far downstream before collapsing and drowning.
In one instance, a shipwrecked seaman swam for six hours in frigid water and survived.
I think that the initial searches neglected to look far enough downstream and simply missed his body.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The initial searches checked miles down stream.

As I posted earlier, one does not need hidden bank accounts for the afterlife.

 

[Ozoner]

The initial searches checked miles down stream.

As I posted earlier, one does not need hidden bank accounts for the afterlife.

I haven't seen any proof of hidden bank accounts, but even if Ray had some, hidden bank accounts don't preclude suicide.

Nor does searching downstream preclude the possibility that they missed his body.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I haven't seen any proof of hidden bank accounts, but even if Ray had some, hidden bank accounts don't preclude suicide.

Nor does searching downstream preclude the possibility that they missed his body.

The evidence has been posted. Their existence does not preclude suicide. but it makes it much less likely.

Likewise, the level of the search, which extended to Harrisburg, weakens the likelihood of suicide.

 

[Black Diamond]

If we dismiss every possibility that could involve a fluke, then the circle you see here will always be just that, a circle with no end.

I’m quoting my own post to clarify something. Regarding the suicide possibility, it is certainly possible that it was suicide, and by some fluke Ray’s body has not been found. It certainly appears contradictory to say we shouldn’t dismiss ideas that could involve a fluke, yet out of the other side of the mouth say that suicide is a very low probability scenario not worth researching because a fluke is necessary for it to be true.

That said, the thinking is this. If it was suicide, short of his body turning up there almost no chance there will be further developments. Spending time thinking or talking about the suicide angle is like running around in circles as fast as you can. You never get anywhere. This whole thing is like that, but with the foul play and walk away angles, there is a much greater chance there could be further developments, because people that know something were alive after April 15, 2005, and might still be.

 

[minazoe]

I do not understand suicide, maybe with horrible mental illness or terminal illness..but in general, even though depression is a terrible feeling, even though anxiety is the worst..to throw yourself off a bridge just doesn't compute for me.

it really makes me sad if Ray did this..I have known a couple people in my lifetime that killed themselves..one particularly beautiful and talented guy.

Maybe Ray was experiencing some kind of worsening symptoms or something..and thought he was going to have to live with or die from a devastating illness.

perhaps the trauma of losing his brother pulled him to the water so he could know his brother's trauma and have it for himself... the mind has a way of creating uncontrollable longings that never really go away..

 

[Ozoner]

There are many hypotheticals on Ray’s motive to walk off, but let’s think about the most likely motives.

1. He wants to be declared dead so Lara and/or Fornicola can collect his pension. I don’t buy it. If he loved them that much he wouldn’t want them to deal with grief just to collect free money that neither needs. Plus why not buy life insurance policies also?
2. Running off with a lady. Cares enough about Fornicola that he doesn’t want to break her heart. This is a decent theory for me. Sticking point is that’s a lot of trouble to go thru to not break someone’s heart all while breaking her heart because she doesn’t know what happened to you.
3. Fear of some criminal, such as Jerry Sandusky, whacking him. Very possible, but why not just drop his investigation into said criminal instead of starting a new life? Maybe it’s someone he already convicted and he knows the only way out is to disappear before someone makes him disappear.
4. He’s secretly a pedophile and runs off somewhere more pedophile friendly. Or maybe thinks someone is on to him and wants to get out before he gets caught. I actually think this is the most likely walk off motive. There’s nothing pointing to Ray being a ped, but then again aren’t most ped discoveries plagued by friends snd family saying “ I had no idea, I’m in shock.” I don’t want to believe this one, but objectively it makes the most sense.
5. He staged it all to make it the story it is. He succeeded beyond all expectations. He has an account here and likes to read all of the crazy theories and discussion here. One day he will release an autobiography.Maybe it’s already written with instructions for someone to publish it only after he dies. In all seriousness, the more I have thought about Ray staging this to create an epic disappearance mystery, the more it moved from a joke toward a plausible theory.

I've only had a personal connection to one person who pulled a disappearing act. That person was tracked down by a private investigator after a couple of years and was later diagnosed with adult-onset schizophrenia. He had not exhibited any symptoms prior to walking away from his life, or if he did, they went unnoticed.

I've known several people who committed suicide. None of them left any kind of note.

I only interacted with one of them in the days prior to the suicide. He was acting odd but not depressed; he seemed extremely tense and distracted.

 

[Ozoner]

Maybe Ray was experiencing some kind of worsening symptoms or something..and thought he was going to have to live with or die from a devastating illness.

I have often thought that the one thing that would push me to suicide would be neither chronic pain nor blindness but rather the recognition that I was experiencing the early stages of dementia. In that situation, I'd like to think that I could muster the courage to cross the bar on my own terms.

Perhaps the trauma of losing his brother pulled him to the water so he could know his brother's trauma and have it for himself... the mind has a way of creating uncontrollable longings that never really go away..

I have often thought exactly that. Nine years is nothing when it comes to something that life changing; he probably thought about his brother every day during those nine years.

 

[Ozoner]

The evidence has been posted. Their existence does not preclude suicide. but it makes it much less likely.

Likewise, the level of the search, which extended to Harrisburg, weakens the likelihood of suicide.

I saw the evidence that he transferred some money, but we don't know whether he was transferring money into accounts that were his own. He could have been paying off a debt or giving money to someone else. So the evidence for hidden bank accounts is very weak indeed.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I saw the evidence that he transferred some money, but we don't know whether he was transferring money into accounts that were his own. He could have been paying off a debt or giving money to someone else. So the evidence for hidden bank accounts is very weak indeed.

How many people transfer money into your bank account?

He would have to know the account number to make the transfer.

I have never transferred funds to pay a debt. Written a check, yes, but never a transfer. Paid by phone or Internet, yes, but there is a record at the bank of where that money went. It is not unknown.

 

[Ozoner]

How many people transfer money into your bank account?

He would have to know the account number to make the transfer.

I have never transferred funds to pay a debt. Written a check, yes, but never a transfer. Paid by phone or Internet, yes, but there is a record at the bank of where that money went. It is not unknown.

Wire transfers are a fairly common way of paying debts; many people use them for mortgage payoffs, large purchases, etc.

Many places take e-checks now, but quite a few places still didn't back in 2005.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Wire transfers are a fairly common way of paying debts; many people use them for mortgage payoffs, large purchases, etc.

Many places take e-checks now, but quite a few places still didn't back in 2005.

Wire transfer have records; it is not an unknown account. Further, RFG had no debt.

 

[Trackergd]

There is an inflatable dam between where RG went missing and downstream dams with turbines. The chances of a body not being discovered in the river is slim at best. Clothing, shoes and pocket contents would have been found on the riverbank or at some point downstream.

I am entertaining the scenario where an individual had damning evidence of some nature on RG and gave him the option of seeing it all over the news or for RG to leave and never come back. RG destroyed the evidence he had so PF and/or the County would not find it. Also explains the demeanor prior to his going missing.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

There is an inflatable dam between where RG went missing and downstream dams with turbines. The chances of a body not being discovered in the river is slim at best. Clothing, shoes and pocket contents would have been found on the riverbank or at some point downstream.

I know of people drowned by going over one of the low head dams. but none where the body was completely destroyed.

I am entertaining the scenario where an individual had damning evidence of some nature on RG and gave him the option of seeing it all over the news or for RG to leave and never come back. RG destroyed the evidence he had so PF and/or the County would not find it. Also explains the demeanor prior to his going missing.

Remember that he asked Lux about cleaning the computer about a year prior to disappearance.

 

[Black Diamond]

Ray’s phone records that were posted awhile ago are interesting. A few things that jump out.
1. Ray didn’t talk on the phone much. In 2005 people in his age bracket were still more land line oriented and didn't use cell as much. Still, the really low overall phone usage could point to a burner phone.
2. Any idea how much, if any, the police questioned the HVAC guy that tried (and maybe succeeded in) getting in touch with Ray Friday morning?
3. Wonder who else tried and maybe succeeded in calling Ray on the 15th in the morning from a bellefonte land line.
4. He spoke on the phone twice the previous Saturday, 4/9 for a few minutes each, which appear to be long calls by Ray’s standards.. Number UNK, wonder if that means the person dialed *69 or something so the number couldn’t be identified?. I’ve never been a District Attorney, so not sure if weekend work calls are uncommon.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Ray’s phone records that were posted awhile ago are interesting. A few things that jump out.
1. Ray didn’t talk on the phone much. In 2005 people in his age bracket were still more land line oriented and didn't use cell as much. Still, the really low overall phone usage could point to a burner phone.
2. Any idea how much, if any, the police questioned the HVAC guy that tried (and maybe succeeded in) getting in touch with Ray Friday morning?
3. Wonder who else tried and maybe succeeded in calling Ray on the 15th in the morning from a bellefonte land line.
4. He spoke on the phone twice the previous Saturday, 4/9 for a few minutes each, which appear to be long calls by Ray’s standards.. Number UNK, wonder if that means the person dialed *69 or something so the number couldn’t be identified?. I’ve never been a District Attorney, so not sure if weekend work calls are uncommon.

1. In 2005, all calls to the DA's Office went through a central switchboard in the Courthouse. That might be why there were so few. The record does not differentiate a call coming to or from RFG's personal office, the DA's office or some other office like the Prothonotary's Office.

2. The HVAC reached RFG about some work they were looking to do.

3-4 are good questions for which I do not have an answer.