Patsy Ramsey

[Anti-K]

Was anyone else aware that Ransom starring Mel Gibson was released in 1996?

Yes, many of us are aware. This used to be a big topic of discussion amongst IDI way back in the day.
...

AK

 

[gramcracker]

The Ramsey account is the only one that we have, and while the story has varied somewhat none of the versions have any discussion, dissension or delay occurring before the 911 call is made. And, considering how early the call was made I tend to think that no discussion, dissension or delay occurred.

the neighbors reported seeing particular lights on/off around midnight for the first time in memory: the sunroom light was off for the first time (instead of burning all night); the butler kitchen lights were on for the first time (meaning: after the family retired for the night, obviously. because of course it would not be considered out of the norm to see lights there when the family was awake/entertaining/etc)

because the butler kitchen lights were on around midnight, I do not believe that the entire family was fast asleep during that time. I do believe that there was abundant time between 12am and 5:52am for discussion, dissension or delay re many vital issues, one of which was dialing 911

it was of the utmost importance to claim that everyone was sleeping; the versions never varied because there was an airtight lid on the can containing discussion, dissension or delay

 

[DeeDee249]

I think it is unlikely that the body was ever placed in the trunk of the car. Most likely, the R's were savvy enough to know that at some stage of the investigation, cadaver dogs would be brought into the home. I have always thought the original plan was to dump the body away from the house. That plan changed when the R's worked out that John's car truck would reveal evidence.

I have explained many times why she wasn't in the trunk of the car- or anywhere else besides the winecellar after death. But if anyone here wants me to explain again I will.

 

[DeeDee249]

Yes, many of us are aware. This used to be a big topic of discussion amongst IDI way back in the day.
...

AK

I had read that a video of "Ransom" was shown at the White's party that day, but don't know if that is accurate.

 

[gramcracker]

“Everyone being up” is an issue because we were discussing a situation where one Ramsey knew about the body but the other Ramsey didn’t know. The whole issue is the cops being called before the body was disposed of. This would not have happened if the Ramseys – one, or both – had planned to report a kidnapping.

re BBM

but that is exactly what DID happen. IMO an important component of the RDI stance is that the criminal acts were committed in an amateur-ish manner (indicating panic). none of the RDIs, IIRC, have posited that those acts were committed in a competent manner

 

[Anti-K]

the neighbors reported seeing particular lights on/off around midnight for the first time in memory: the sunroom light was off for the first time (instead of burning all night); the butler kitchen lights were on for the first time (meaning: after the family retired for the night, obviously. because of course it would not be considered out of the norm to see lights there when the family was awake/entertaining/etc)

because the butler kitchen lights were on around midnight, I do not believe that the entire family was fast asleep during that time. I do believe that there was abundant time between 12am and 5:52am for discussion, dissension or delay re many vital issues, one of which was dialing 911

it was of the utmost importance to claim that everyone was sleeping; the versions never varied because there was an airtight lid on the can containing discussion, dissension or delay

Yes, if the Ramseys were up all night, then there was plenty of time for discussion, dissension or delay. Discussion and dissension would cause some delay, but somehow they still ended up calling at a time as if there had been no delay. The problem I have is how could they decide after discussion to call the police while the body is still in the house? This seems incredibly unlikely. It just makes no sense. Discussing it means talking it over, thinking about it, weighing the pros and cons, etc. How could they possibly end up deciding to call the police? Why would they even consider it? Where is the advantage? What could have been the reason?
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

I had read that a video of "Ransom" was shown at the White's party that day, but don't know if that is accurate.

IIRC, the movie viewed at the White’s was Nick of Time. Ransom was playing in the theaters.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

re BBM

but that is exactly what DID happen. IMO an important component of the RDI stance is that the criminal acts were committed in an amateur-ish manner (indicating panic). none of the RDIs, IIRC, have posited that those acts were committed in a competent manner

Yes, it is exactly what did happen, and it is one (of several) aspects of the case that is a conundrum for RDI, but is consistent with IDI. It eases IDI and complicates RDI. If one is fond of KISS and occam’s razor and similar heuristics than IDI wins this one hands down.
.

This isn’t a question of competence, or criminal experience, or knowledge of how investigations work, etc.. It’s that reporting it to the police before the disposal is a really, really bad idea, it’s so bad that people don’t even consider it. Calling the police is the very last thing on the list. No one even has to think about it; you clean up your mess, you set your scene, you get your story straight, you call the police. It’s fundamental, it’s basic.

I would be shocked if anyone could find a single case in recorded history where a killer reported their victim kidnapped, or as a runaway, or otherwise missing BEFORE they had a chance to dispose of their victim’s body.
...

AK

 

[gramcracker]

it's not a conundrum for me, as an RDI. there are times in a person's life when they feel they have no option other than to act out a really bad idea

the deed was done. the circumstance existed. the unthinkable loomed before them. the only option in their minds was to report a kidnapping. and it worked, didn't it? it created suspicion and controversy and it damaged their reputations, but it worked

they couldn't clean the scene because the only way to do that would create tire tracks leaving and returning to the garage/driveway. they couldn't do it because neighbors would see them using their vehicle(s). they couldn't do it because PR drew the line at exposing JB's body to the elements/predators outdoors, and to the processes of advanced decomp (depending on how long it took for her remains to be searched for/located). they couldn't do it because a totally missing JB would require them to remain in town until the event was resolved

I am struck by how the value of comparing this case to others has such variation. comparing it to other cases when intending to reinforce how often the family did it: the argument is that the comparison is not valid. but comparing it to other cases when intending to reinforce how often no call is made before the body is concealed: the argument is that the comparison is valid

 

[lawstudent]

I would be shocked if anyone could find a single case in recorded history where a killer reported their victim kidnapped, or as a runaway, or otherwise missing BEFORE they had a chance to dispose of their victim’s body.
...

AK

But the whole problem is there are no cases where a killer had to report a victim kidnapped for ransom to cover the death (suggesting a runaway is a different situation for a variety of reasons). Child killers of any kind (stranger, friend, or family) don't use that as a cover up with any amount of frequency.

It's just as much something that people don't even think of, because all it does is make police look really hard for the child shortly after the crime, and limit the timeline/possible perpetrators. That's why they usually claim the child disappeared and they found the window open, and usually suggest a crazy child predator. They can keep that story going for a long time. With a ransom demand, the cops know something is up with the story as soon as it's not followed up with appropriately. Plus, you obviously need to be somewhat wealthy to make it plausible.

The closest I can think of is Casey Anthony, but she never intended to go to police with that story and didn't frame it as a kidnap for ransom because that would have required her to report it much sooner than she did.

There really aren't any comparable situations I can think of that you could use to say "people who fake kidnappings for ransom don't call 911 until they dispose of the body." However, there are many situations where family members who kill a child report the child missing (suggesting a kidnapping), usually after the child has been missing a while, and yes, they have always disposed of the body.

Because of the timing with Christmas and the flight, if the Ramseys were involved, their timeline ended up being unusually limited. If they hadn't called 911, and instead delayed the kidnapping claim, they would have had to explain the suspicious change in plans. They would have probably needed to wait at least one more night, canceling their trip and explaining to Burke where she had gone, and inventing a whole day of JonBenet's activities, in order to say they weren't awake when the person entered. Yes, calling 911 early was not logical taken alone, but running out of time would explain it.

Criminals take risks, but so does anyone else, and any choice in this situation involves some risk. Waiting wouldn't have necessarily put them in a better position, particularly if you imagine the stress of living with it for another day - I believe whatever happened, they wanted it over with, if they were involved.

 

[Venom]

IMO, the R's used the ransom note as their hail Mary pass that night. And it semi-worked. The reason I say semi is it didn't give the R's a definite intruder, it gave enough to "muddy" the waters. Here we are, 18 years later:
No one has been convicted, much less arrested.
There's enough wth questions about things that don't make any sense.
No one (RDI or IDI) can give an answer to all the things that don't make sense.

 

[Teresa]

IMO, the R's used the ransom note as their hail Mary pass that night. And it semi-worked. The reason I say semi is it didn't give the R's a definite intruder, it gave enough to "muddy" the waters. Here we are, 18 years later:
No one has been convicted, much less arrested.
There's enough wth questions about things that don't make any sense.
No one (RDI or IDI) can give an answer to all the things that don't make sense.

I believe the Ramseys goal in staging was all about creating "reasonable" doubt for a potential jury. I'm not sure which Ramsey killed Jon Benet or why, but I have no doubt that the aftermath was to create possible doubt.

 

[claudicici]

I think finding JonBenet in the state she was in was exactly what Pageant mom Patsy wanted,there was no reason at all for her to dispose of the body,the theatrical element of the tragedy would have been lost if Jon Benet wouldn't have been found.They just counted on the police to find her quickly,not for JR to have to go back down there IMO......on the other side I can not find one single explanation why an intruder would leave Jon Benet at the crime scene

 

[Detective Pinkie]

But the whole problem is there are no cases where a killer had to report a victim kidnapped for ransom to cover the death (suggesting a runaway is a different situation for a variety of reasons). Child killers of any kind (stranger, friend, or family) don't use that as a cover up with any amount of frequency.

It's just as much something that people don't even think of, because all it does is make police look really hard for the child shortly after the crime, and limit the timeline/possible perpetrators. That's why they usually claim the child disappeared and they found the window open, and usually suggest a crazy child predator. They can keep that story going for a long time. With a ransom demand, the cops know something is up with the story as soon as it's not followed up with appropriately. Plus, you obviously need to be somewhat wealthy to make it plausible.

The closest I can think of is Casey Anthony, but she never intended to go to police with that story and didn't frame it as a kidnap for ransom because that would have required her to report it much sooner than she did.

There really aren't any comparable situations I can think of that you could use to say "people who fake kidnappings for ransom don't call 911 until they dispose of the body." However, there are many situations where family members who kill a child report the child missing (suggesting a kidnapping), usually after the child has been missing a while, and yes, they have always disposed of the body.

Because of the timing with Christmas and the flight, if the Ramseys were involved, their timeline ended up being unusually limited. If they hadn't called 911, and instead delayed the kidnapping claim, they would have had to explain the suspicious change in plans. They would have probably needed to wait at least one more night, canceling their trip and explaining to Burke where she had gone, and inventing a whole day of JonBenet's activities, in order to say they weren't awake when the person entered. Yes, calling 911 early was not logical taken alone, but running out of time would explain it.

Criminals take risks, but so does anyone else, and any choice in this situation involves some risk. Waiting wouldn't have necessarily put them in a better position, particularly if you imagine the stress of living with it for another day - I believe whatever happened, they wanted it over with, if they were involved.

Thank you. Everything I have been trying to say, all packaged up neatly.

Anti-K you keep saying that the ransom note and body proves IDI over RDI because the Rs would have moved the body and then reported the kidnapping. When?
I don't live somewhere where it snows (and so correct me if I am wrong) but wouldn't it have been hard to move the body that morning without leaving tracks? I think it would have been difficult to move JB without being seen/leaving more evidence. They had the deadline of the plane trip. Delay raises questions, so JB has to be reported missing before they leave for the airport otherwise there are awkward questions about when they realised their daughter was missing.
Could they have just reported her missing with no ransom note? Sure, but a missing child leads to a search of the house and questioning the family. A ransom note causes delay while everyone waits for a phone call plus it points a finger outside the house. JB's not just missing she is kidnapped and here's the proof - you don't need to look for evidence as to what happened to her: here it is!
As to where the body was found, I don't think your argument is strengthened by the fact that it was not in the trunk of a car or somewhere else convenient for disposal. The wine cellar was out of the way and not very obvious place to hide the body. I think it could have been found just as easily, if not more so, if it was in the trunk of a car and then it raises a heap of questions that the Rs would not want to answer.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

But the whole problem is there are no cases where a killer had to report a victim kidnapped for ransom to cover the death (suggesting a runaway is a different situation for a variety of reasons). Child killers of any kind (stranger, friend, or family) don't use that as a cover up with any amount of frequency.

It's just as much something that people don't even think of, because all it does is make police look really hard for the child shortly after the crime, and limit the timeline/possible perpetrators. That's why they usually claim the child disappeared and they found the window open, and usually suggest a crazy child predator. They can keep that story going for a long time. With a ransom demand, the cops know something is up with the story as soon as it's not followed up with appropriately. Plus, you obviously need to be somewhat wealthy to make it plausible.

The closest I can think of is Casey Anthony, but she never intended to go to police with that story and didn't frame it as a kidnap for ransom because that would have required her to report it much sooner than she did.

There really aren't any comparable situations I can think of that you could use to say "people who fake kidnappings for ransom don't call 911 until they dispose of the body." However, there are many situations where family members who kill a child report the child missing (suggesting a kidnapping), usually after the child has been missing a while, and yes, they have always disposed of the body.

Because of the timing with Christmas and the flight, if the Ramseys were involved, their timeline ended up being unusually limited. If they hadn't called 911, and instead delayed the kidnapping claim, they would have had to explain the suspicious change in plans. They would have probably needed to wait at least one more night, canceling their trip and explaining to Burke where she had gone, and inventing a whole day of JonBenet's activities, in order to say they weren't awake when the person entered. Yes, calling 911 early was not logical taken alone, but running out of time would explain it.

Criminals take risks, but so does anyone else, and any choice in this situation involves some risk. Waiting wouldn't have necessarily put them in a better position, particularly if you imagine the stress of living with it for another day - I believe whatever happened, they wanted it over with, if they were involved.

Just because it was not done before does not mean it was not done now.

I believe this crime was by someone who was looking to perplex. To confuse, to hurt. I believe this person knew the R's in some capacity.

What makes sense in this case to me has nothing to do with Patsy being involved at all.

 

[Zzzz]

Moving the body before calling police is easy if John knew. Leaving in the early morning hours is easily explained that he was going to the bank to get the ransom money (maybe even going early to wait for the bank to open). He could have gotten it and returned or returned and said he changed his mind. Tracks in snow, neighbors seeing him leave - all explainable and body is gone. But if only Patsy knew, she's stuck with the body. And she came up with the only cover-up she could think of - a ransom note.

Yes, it would have been possible to find forensic evidence in the trunk, but he could have wrapped her in something not left at the dump scene and then disposed of it.


Lights on in the house at midnight, so unusual that neighbors noticed, are not lights used by an intruder.

 

[lawstudent]

Just because it was not done before does not mean it was not done now.

I believe this crime was by someone who was looking to perplex. To confuse, to hurt. I believe this person knew the R's in some capacity.

What makes sense in this case to me has nothing to do with Patsy being involved at all.

Yes, but you asked for other cases where someone had done such a thing, and drew comparison to general behaviors by people who kill children. I responded to that. Yes, it is possible that this case is one of a kind. But if that were so, how did they not find this person, if he indeed knew them and wanted to mentally screw with them to the point of killing their child? He put all this effort into confusing and hurting them without ever apparently raising any great red flags before or after? He wrote the ransom note in the house instead of preparing one as manipulatively as possible, and then left her there and didn't call instead of toying with their false hopes? If anything, if the case is one of a kind, it would have to be the rare insane child predator who fixated on her from afar and did what he did for reasons only he can understand.

 

[Venom]

Thank you. Everything I have been trying to say, all packaged up neatly.

Anti-K you keep saying that the ransom note and body proves IDI over RDI because the Rs would have moved the body and then reported the kidnapping. When?
I don't live somewhere where it snows (and so correct me if I am wrong) but wouldn't it have been hard to move the body that morning without leaving tracks? I think it would have been difficult to move JB without being seen/leaving more evidence. They had the deadline of the plane trip. Delay raises questions, so JB has to be reported missing before they leave for the airport otherwise there are awkward questions about when they realised their daughter was missing.
Could they have just reported her missing with no ransom note? Sure, but a missing child leads to a search of the house and questioning the family. A ransom note causes delay while everyone waits for a phone call plus it points a finger outside the house. JB's not just missing she is kidnapped and here's the proof - you don't need to look for evidence as to what happened to her: here it is!
As to where the body was found, I don't think your argument is strengthened by the fact that it was not in the trunk of a car or somewhere else convenient for disposal. The wine cellar was out of the way and not very obvious place to hide the body. I think it could have been found just as easily, if not more so, if it was in the trunk of a car and then it raises a heap of questions that the Rs would not want to answer.

BBM- I agree. It's a little easier to explain your 6 year old daughter dead in the basement with a ransom note then it is with nothing. Surely the R's would be questioned about it and they couldn't just shrug their shoulders as to what happened. imo

 

[chlban]

I believe the Ramseys goal in staging was all about creating "reasonable" doubt for a potential jury. I'm not sure which Ramsey killed Jon Benet or why, but I have no doubt that the aftermath was to create possible doubt.

Exactly. With all it's flaws, it worked. Most of the country may believe that someone in the family killed her, but even those of us totally convinced of that cannot say with certainty which Ramsey or Ramsey's actually killed her.

 

[Chelly]

I have explained many times why she wasn't in the trunk of the car- or anywhere else besides the winecellar after death. But if anyone here wants me to explain again I will.

Please do. I'd like a memory refresher. Thanks.