Patsy Ramsey

[THE BUNK]

Exactly. With all it's flaws, it worked. Most of the country may believe that someone in the family killed her, but even those of us totally convinced of that cannot say with certainty which Ramsey or Ramsey's actually killed her.

I agree. They don't care what the public things. They care about what a jury will think. Their staging creates a theory that a lawyer can work with and present as an alternative. Just enough to create a shadow of doubt as to whether the Ramseys were guilty.

 

[Mama2JML]

If PR wrote the RN, then surely she had some control over the content. At minimum, she would have known "the conditions". She would have created the perfect "out" as she had every reason in the world not to call 911. She would have the opportunity to utilize an extra 26-28 hours however she saw fit; dispose of the body; get rid of the notepad, pen & paintbrush remnant; continue to stage the scene; etc...

 

[chlban]

If PR wrote the RN, then surely she had some control over the content. At minimum, she would have known "the conditions". She would have created the perfect "out" as she had every reason in the world not to call 911. She would have the opportunity to utilize an extra 26-28 hours however she saw fit; dispose of the body; get rid of the notepad, pen & paintbrush remnant; continue to stage the scene; etc...

Not if John was not involved at that point. She has to explain why JB is gone. As for the perfect "out" she did create it. She threatened that JB would be killed if anyone was contacted. But she didn't use that out.

The key is that she was not acting in a rational matter. Killing your child is not a rational act. There is no reason to assume that all actions taken that night and the next day were rational.

 

[THE BUNK]

I believe this crime was by someone who was looking to perplex. To confuse, to hurt. I believe this person knew the R's in some capacity.

If the intruder knows the Ramsey's, he already has a reason to confuse and perplex. Confusing the police and the Ramsey's hides the killer's identity and makes it easier for him to escape with the crime.

To hurt? Well, depends on whether he actually intended to kill JonBenet or not. Killing JonBenet would seem to be enough to hurt the Ramseys, no? I'm not sure what else you need to do. Especially if your not going to do anything further in the past to harm them.

 

[THE BUNK]

If PR wrote the RN, then surely she had some control over the content. At minimum, she would have known "the conditions". She would have created the perfect "out" as she had every reason in the world not to call 911. She would have the opportunity to utilize an extra 26-28 hours however she saw fit; dispose of the body; get rid of the notepad, pen & paintbrush remnant; continue to stage the scene; etc...

1. Assuming that she want to dispose of the body in the first place. Disposing of the body would deprive them of a "proper burial". Going to hell may be a far worse thing in Patsies mind than going to jail. As twisted as it sounds, giving her little girl a good christian funeral may have been her priority.

Now that brings up the million dollar question: If John wanted to dispose of the body, but Patsy refused...what would a disagreement lead to?

2. You also have to keep in mind that the Ramsey's are coming up with this plan on the fly. It's not like they planned this crime weeks in advance like an intruder would. They just came up with this plan that day. There are bound to be mistakes made and things overlooked. It wouldn't suprise me if Patsy simply mistook John and thought he wanted her to call the police right now. Not to stereotype, but Patsy may not be the best person in the world to plan your murder cover-up with.

 

[InstantProof]

Moving the body before calling police is easy if John knew. Leaving in the early morning hours is easily explained that he was going to the bank to get the ransom money (maybe even going early to wait for the bank to open). He could have gotten it and returned or returned and said he changed his mind. Tracks in snow, neighbors seeing him leave - all explainable and body is gone.

I think this was the original plan. But Patsy did not want JB out in the elements and called 911 in order to prevent her removal. IMO J&P both worked on covering the situation up but were at odds about how to do it, which is why there's a senseless crime scene.

 

[THE BUNK]

I think this was the original plan. But Patsy did not want JB out in the elements and called 911 in order to prevent her removal. IMO J&P both worked on covering the situation up but were at odds about how to do it, which is why there's a senseless crime scene.

Excellent! Yes I agree this was John's original plan. Something happened that screwed this plan up.

Even the best laid plans go awry.

 

[lawstudent]

While most of my posts tend to lean RDI, unless someone is a defense attorney, I never hear them say "I was thinking of ways to create reasonable doubt." I mean I really can't think of one situation where I've heard a defendant say that about his actions at the time. The thought is usually "how do I make people think I didn't do this?" not "what will be the best way to create confusion in court?" Most people try and make sure they never make it to court, even where it is unlikely.

 

[DeeDee249]

Please do. I'd like a memory refresher. Thanks.

OK- here it is. There are some obvious changes that occur in a body after death. One is livor mortis. This occurs because the heart has stopped pumping and blood is no longer circulating. It "settles", pulled by gravity, in parts of the body closest to the floor or ground. It can be seen as a dark red to purplish discoloration. For example, if a person dies sitting up, the livor pattern will be seen in the feet and lower legs, possibly the hands. If they were hanging, the same thing- the legs, feet, hands, lower arms. Remember blood is a liquid at first, so like any liquid will settle to the "bottom". If a person dies or is placed on the back within the first 15-minutes or so after death, the livor pattern will form on the back. In the case of JB, she was found on her back with her head cocked to the right. This is exactly where the livor pattern was seen. Livor remains in a state known as "blanching" or "non-fixed" for a period of time. During this time, blood can be pushed out of the way under pressure. You can see it on yourself, too. Just push a finger into your lower legs, especially after being on your feet a while and you will see a white mark under where your finger was- then the blood will seep right back in. But in a dead body that is not moved, whatever caused the white "pressure" mark remains in place and so the white marks remain as well. JB was seen to have several white "pressure" marks on her back from the folds of her clothing, as well as one white mark on her neck.
But after a while, the blood in a dead person will "gel" and will no longer seep back into the area under pressure. It has become "fixed" or "non-blanching". This is a good example- if you made a bowl of cherry jello in a clear bowl at first the jello is very liquid. If you picked the bowl up and tilted it, it will make a pattern on the side of the bowl. As time passes, the liquid jello sets and for a while, if you move the bowl, it will make repeated patterns every time you tilt the bowl and these patterns will remain on the side of the bowl even after you put the bowl down. But you definitely know the bowl was moved around. After the jello completely sets, even if you move the bowl around it will no longer make a pattern- it has become "fixed". That was JB. There was only ONE livor pattern. She was not moved. After she died, she was placed relatively soon after death, onto the white blanket on the wine cellar floor, her head cocked to the right (gravity pulling her head to the side) and the first and only livor pattern formed. That is exactly how she was found.
The second factor is rigor mortis. Livor forms first, but rigor begins slowly as lactic acid builds up in the muscle tissue. Calcium ions no longer can move freely in and out of the cell walls because the cells no longer receive oxygen and glucose (because the blood no longer circulates). If the body was moved AFTER livor was fixed (therefore no tell-tale pattern will form) by that time, RIGOR is more advanced and her limbs could not be bent - she was no longer flexible, but stiff. (the way she was when she was brought up from the basement). Manipulating a body in rigor can "break" rigor (funeral directors have to do this all the time) and once broken, it will not re-form. JB was in full rigor when found and still in it when the coroner first examined her at around 8 pm that night. Rigor takes 36 hours to complete a full cycle-12 hours to form, remains full for 12 the next 12 hours then dissipates over the next 12 hours. It forms in the small muscle groups first, like eyelids, wrists. Then larger muscles like thighs. By the time of the autopsy, JB was dead about 30 hours, and the coroner noted a milder degree in some muscles and joints, which was expected as it was beginning to pass off. So bottom line, she couldn't have been in a suitcase, trunk, freezer (all have been suggested) because there would be either multiple livor patterns or broken rigor. And there were neither. I can come to no other conclusion - she was placed on her back in the wine cellar within moments of her death and not moved until JR brought her up later. I make ONE codicil to this- it was possible she was further back in the wine cellar (which was L-shaped) which accounts for why FW could not see her when when he peeked into the room. He only peeked- he said he never stepped inside, and didn't know where the light switch was. As time passed, and JR realized the police weren't going to leave until THEY left themselves, he could have gone down there during the time Det Arndt "lost track" of him that morning between 10 am and noon and pulled the body closer to the door. By that time livor was fixed and she was in full rigor- if he lifted her carefully upright (the way he carried her upstairs) or pulled her along the floor on the blanket, he could have moved her closer to the doorway without it being evident. Of course, a REAL investigation might have examined the wine cellar floor to see if there were marks in the thick layer of white mold on the floor that may have shown the blanket was dragged along it. But remember there was a footprint that was not disturbed. So that is less likely.

 

[Linda7NJ]

OK- here it is. There are some obvious changes that occur in a body after death. One is livor mortis. This occurs because the heart has stopped pumping and blood is no longer circulating. It "settles", pulled by gravity, in parts of the body closest to the floor or ground. It can be seen as a dark red to purplish discoloration. For example, if a person dies sitting up, the livor pattern will be seen in the feet and lower legs, possibly the hands. If they were hanging, the same thing- the legs, feet, hands, lower arms. Remember blood is a liquid at first, so like any liquid will settle to the "bottom". If a person dies or is placed on the back within the first 15-minutes or so after death, the livor pattern will form on the back. In the case of JB, she was found on her back with her head cocked to the right. This is exactly where the livor pattern was seen. Livor remains in a state known as "blanching" or "non-fixed" for a period of time. During this time, blood can be pushed out of the way under pressure. You can see it on yourself, too. Just push a finger into your lower legs, especially after being on your feet a while and you will see a white mark under where your finger was- then the blood will seep right back in. But after a while, the blood in a dead person will "gel" and will no longer seep back into the area under pressure. It has become "fixed" or "non-blanching". This is a good example- if you made a bowl of cherry jello in a clear bowl at first the jello is very liquid. If you picked the bowl up and tilted it, it will make a pattern on the side of the bowl. As time passes, the liquid jello sets and for a while, if you move the bowl, it will make repeated patterns every time you tilt the bowl and these patterns will remain on the side of the bowl even after you put the bowl down. But you definitely know the bowl was moved around. After the jello completely sets, even if you move the bowl around it will no longer make a pattern- it has become "fixed". That was JB. There was only ONE livor pattern. She was not moved. After se died, she was placed relatively soon after death, onto the white blanket on the wine cellar floor, her head cocked to the right (gravity pulling her head to the side) and the first and only livor pattern formed. That is exactly how she was found.
The second factor is rigor mortis. Livor forms first, but rigor begins slowly as lactic acid builds up in the muscle tissue. Calcium ions no longer can move freely in and out of the cell walls because the cells no longer receive oxygen and glucose (because the blood no longer circulates). If the body was moved AFTER livor was fixed (therefore no tell-tale pattern will form) by that time, RIGOR is more advanced and her limbs could not be bent - she was no longer flexible, but stiff. (the way she was when she was brought up from the basement). Manipulating a body in rigor can "break" rigor (funeral directors have to do this all the time) and once broken, it will not re-form. JB was in full rigor when found and still in it when the coroner first examined her at around 8 pm that night. Rigor takes 36 hours to complete a full cycle-12 hours to form, remains full for 12 the next 12 hours then dissipates over the next 12 hours. It forms in the small muscle groups first, like eyelids, wrists. Then larger muscles like thighs. By the time of the autopsy, JB was dead about 30 hours, and the coroner noted a milder degree in some muscles and joints, which was expected as it was beginning to pass off. So bottom line, she couldn't have been in a suitcase, trunk, freezer (all have been suggested) because there would be either multiple livor patterns or broken rigor. And there were neither. I can come to no other conclusion - she was placed on her back in the wine cellar within moments of her death and not moved until JR brought her up later. I make ONE codicil to this- it was possible she was further back in the wine cellar (which was L-shaped) which accounts for why FW could not see her when when he peeked into the room. He only peeked- he said he never stepped inside, and didn't know where the light switch was. As time passed, and JR realized the police weren't going to leave until THEY left themselves, he could have gone down there during the time Det Arndt "lost track" of him that morning between 10 am and noon and pulled the body closer to the door. By that time livor was fixed and she was in full rigor- if he lifted her carefully upright (the way he carried her upstairs) or pulled her along the floor on the blanket, he could have moved her closer to the doorway without it being evident. Of course, a REAL investigation might have examined the wine cellar floor to see if there were marks in the thick layer of white mold on the floor that may have shown the blanket was dragged along it. But remember there was a footprint that was not disturbed. So that is less likely.

I hope you cut and pasted that from one of the other 100 times you've patiently detailed it in a post.


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[Zzzz]

I think this was the original plan. But Patsy did not want JB out in the elements and called 911 in order to prevent her removal. IMO J&P both worked on covering the situation up but were at odds about how to do it, which is why there's a senseless crime scene.

I know that many think Patsy did not want JB's remains out in the elements (proper burial and all)... But the damage done to this child was already horrendous, including choking, apparent sexual molestation (real or staged after death) and a huge skull fracture applied with tremendous, brutal force AFTER she died. If Patsy was capable of that, I don't see how placing the body in the snow would bother her. More conundrums of course.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Did anyone ever consider she wanted to actually frame John?

Odd where those Israeli shirt fibers of HIS were found on JonBenet's pubic area....when everything else screamed Patsy. IMO


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[Anti-K]

But the whole problem is there are no cases where a killer had to report a victim kidnapped for ransom to cover the death (suggesting a runaway is a different situation for a variety of reasons). Child killers of any kind (stranger, friend, or family) don't use that as a cover up with any amount of frequency.

It's just as much something that people don't even think of, because all it does is make police look really hard for the child shortly after the crime, and limit the timeline/possible perpetrators. That's why they usually claim the child disappeared and they found the window open, and usually suggest a crazy child predator. They can keep that story going for a long time. With a ransom demand, the cops know something is up with the story as soon as it's not followed up with appropriately. Plus, you obviously need to be somewhat wealthy to make it plausible.

The closest I can think of is Casey Anthony, but she never intended to go to police with that story and didn't frame it as a kidnap for ransom because that would have required her to report it much sooner than she did.

There really aren't any comparable situations I can think of that you could use to say "people who fake kidnappings for ransom don't call 911 until they dispose of the body." However, there are many situations where family members who kill a child report the child missing (suggesting a kidnapping), usually after the child has been missing a while, and yes, they have always disposed of the body.

Because of the timing with Christmas and the flight, if the Ramseys were involved, their timeline ended up being unusually limited. If they hadn't called 911, and instead delayed the kidnapping claim, they would have had to explain the suspicious change in plans. They would have probably needed to wait at least one more night, canceling their trip and explaining to Burke where she had gone, and inventing a whole day of JonBenet's activities, in order to say they weren't awake when the person entered. Yes, calling 911 early was not logical taken alone, but running out of time would explain it.

Criminals take risks, but so does anyone else, and any choice in this situation involves some risk. Waiting wouldn't have necessarily put them in a better position, particularly if you imagine the stress of living with it for another day - I believe whatever happened, they wanted it over with, if they were involved.

Well, as I said, typically, one reports a kidnapping or a runaway, or a failure to return home. Kidnapping, runaway, failure to return – these are all the same thing: reasons why someone is missing. These are reported BECAUSE a body was disposed of, and AFTER a body is disposed of. Always. Every time.
.

There was no time constraint. The time constraint is a false restriction put upon them by some RDI.

All the Ramseys had to do was exactly what they did do: notify people that something had happened (they needn’t give details!) and they wouldn’t be arriving as expected. And the ransom note could have been – was! – written in such a way as to explain any delay in calling the police.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

Thank you. Everything I have been trying to say, all packaged up neatly.

Anti-K you keep saying that the ransom note and body proves IDI over RDI because the Rs would have moved the body and then reported the kidnapping. When?
I don't live somewhere where it snows (and so correct me if I am wrong) but wouldn't it have been hard to move the body that morning without leaving tracks? I think it would have been difficult to move JB without being seen/leaving more evidence. They had the deadline of the plane trip. Delay raises questions, so JB has to be reported missing before they leave for the airport otherwise there are awkward questions about when they realised their daughter was missing.
Could they have just reported her missing with no ransom note? Sure, but a missing child leads to a search of the house and questioning the family. A ransom note causes delay while everyone waits for a phone call plus it points a finger outside the house. JB's not just missing she is kidnapped and here's the proof - you don't need to look for evidence as to what happened to her: here it is!
As to where the body was found, I don't think your argument is strengthened by the fact that it was not in the trunk of a car or somewhere else convenient for disposal. The wine cellar was out of the way and not very obvious place to hide the body. I think it could have been found just as easily, if not more so, if it was in the trunk of a car and then it raises a heap of questions that the Rs would not want to answer.

No, I do not “keep saying that the ransom note and body proves IDI over RDI.” I’m not saying, and virtually never say, that anything “proves” anything. And, I’m not so much talking about the “ransom note and body” as I am the call being made before the body was disposed of. It is the call that complicates (but, does not disprove) RDI, and makes perfect sense (but, does not prove) if IDI.

I understand why the Ramseys could have decided against disposing of the body. But, deciding against disposal presents them with (a) problem(s): how do you explain a dead body in the house? The problem presented does not have “fake kidnapping; ran away from, or failure to return, home” in the set of reasonably available explanations. These explanations are the opposite of what would be required when presented with the problem of a dead body in the house.
.

If you plan on disposing of the body, hiding it in the basement is an unnecessary step. And, if only one Ramsey was involved, it is an unnecessarily risky step.
I don’t understand why some people think that hiding the body in the trunk of the car could possibly be riskier, or even as risky as, hiding it in the house?
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

I’ve fallen behind, and I can’t catch up!

...

AK

 

[THE BUNK]

I know that many think Patsy did not want JB's remains out in the elements (proper burial and all)... But the damage done to this child was already horrendous, including choking, apparent sexual molestation (real or staged after death) and a huge skull fracture applied with tremendous, brutal force AFTER she died. If Patsy was capable of that, I don't see how placing the body in the snow would bother her. More conundrums of course.

I don't think she was worried about the damage of the body as opposed to actually having the body in the first place.

Something to consider: From the RDI perspective, it doesn't make a difference whether JB was found inside the house or in their yard. The body being found any significant proximity to their residence would have been suspicious.

For this Ransom note to work, the Ramseys have to take a major step here. They have to:

1. Be willing to lose JonBenet's body forever and have no funeral. For a religious person, not giving a proper funeral is a very serious matter.

2. Have to drive to a far away location and come up with a way to dispose of her body (i.e. burial, drop her in the water, cut her up into pieces, etc)

3. You have to make sure that the police, neighbors and etc are not alerted to what is occurring while this disposal is occuring. What are Burke & Patsy, going to do in the meantime? What is the cover story if John is away? Why is he away while the kidnappers are expected to make a call.


What i am getting at is that from the RDI's perspective, the disposal of JonBenet's body is not an easy task. Mostly because it requires a plan first before it can be done. Hell, finding the right location to dispose of her is a task in and of itself.

I wouldn't be surprised if the reason they left her body was because their original disposal plan hit a snag.

 

[Mama2JML]

Did anyone ever consider she wanted to actually frame John?

Odd where those Israeli shirt fibers of HIS were found on JonBenet's pubic area....when everything else screamed Patsy. IMO


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Do you recall whether or not Kolar mentions fibers collected from the victim's pubic region/panties being consistent with those from JR's wool sweater? I'm not sure, I'll skim through in a bit, but I don't think this is evidence Kolar mentions.

The original source is a police interview that has been disputed, but not confirmed by a reliable source. AFAIK, IIRC. So, this evidence probably doesn't really exist. JMHO.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Do you recall whether or not Kolar mentions fibers collected from the victim's pubic region/panties being consistent with those from JR's wool sweater? I'm not sure, I'll skim through in a bit, but I don't think this is evidence Kolar mentions.

The original source is a police interview that has been disputed, but not confirmed by a reliable source. AFAIK, IIRC. So, this evidence probably doesn't really exist. JMHO.

I can't recall specifically if Kolar addresses it I have a hard copy.
I'm not at home to check. Perhaps someone with kindle can?




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[Mama2JML]

I can't recall specifically if Kolar addresses it I have a hard copy.
I'm not at home to check. Perhaps someone with kindle can?




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Thank you. I have a hard copy too. I skimmed the chapters I thought might contain pertinent info, but found no mention of JR's sweater fibers...

 

[gramcracker]

while the damage was horrendous, JB's face was not disfigured to the point of ruling out an open casket. which I think was extremely important to PR: one last public display of the child she spent much time/money/effort displaying in life. the choice of an open casket could not be guaranteed if JB was disposed of outdoors. in addition to the ticking of the decomp clock, she would have been at the mercy of predatory animals. IMO the thought of wildlife tearing at her daughter's body was where PR drew the line

There was no time constraint. The time constraint is a false restriction put upon them by some RDI.

the time constraint came directly from the Rs. it was the thread running through the sequence of recent events as they recounted them. it was the reason JR *thought* he could fly away 30 minutes after JB was discovered (although "an important meeting" in ATL was not mentioned in their claimed timeline). it was the reason PR was under so much pressure, packing for four people with two destinations (after agreeing to a side trip she didn't want to make)

explaining that they would not be arriving in MI as expected was among the least of their problems