Patsy Ramsey

[Zzzz]

we have only their version of how the 911 call came about. the same people who said BR slept soundly through the event and the aftermath. which we know is not true. thank goodness for the enhanced tape which forced them to admit that BR was awake and asking questions


no disposal/no kidnapping then leaves who as the POIs? the intruder/kidnapper scenario wasn't well thought out because there was no time to think; there was only time to do ... something ... anything. it was a desperate maneuver because they were backed into a corner. it truly was an either/or situation. either it was an intruder or it was them

Absolutely. Panic means not much thought about how it will be analyzed. Along with so many irrelevant lies for no apparent reason... Burke awake, pineapple eating, etc.

 

[lawstudent]

no disposal/no kidnapping then leaves who as the POIs? the intruder/kidnapper scenario wasn't well thought out because there was no time to think; there was only time to do ... something ... anything. it was a desperate maneuver because they were backed into a corner. it truly was an either/or situation. either it was an intruder or it was them

Yeah, the problem is that while it doesn't make sense for the Ramseys to stage the kidnapping and call 911, it makes just as little sense for an intruder to do it, especially within the house. I know the comeback to that is that since we don't know who the intruder was, the person could have some unknown reason, or that there are lots of nuts out there who don't behave logically. But that's just as much of a stretch IMO. The idea that some random person did this and then spent the time to make up a totally unhelpful and illogical explanation instead of just leaving is strange. Or I guess the set up indicates he would have done it before taking her to the basement, in which case you can argue he did intend to take her and direct suspicion at someone financially motivated, but the level of detail is still quite odd and doesn't explain the sexual assault in the house. It's just so bizarre. I can see someone trying to cover something up by blaming it on some child predator, but all that financial detail making it seem totally unrelated to any sexual motive - I just don't know.

 

[Anti-K]

The problem for me is that this is almost the only theory that has any logic to me. It's not that other scenarios aren't possible, but I could see that being the plan. I understand the whole "well why wouldn't he put her in the car, then?" But police would presumably say "are you sure she isn't hiding in the car/did the intruder steal your car/was the garage left open/can you drive to the police station?" There was a lot more chance of her being found in the car than in that wine cellar, IMO, from the perspective of the average person. The ransom note would deflect attention away from the house, in theory, but not necessarily the car. While obviously some disagree, I think it was entirely reasonable for the Ramseys to believe their house would not be searched or secured for some time. The "it was an obvious crime scene" from the beginning argument isn't strong, to me, at least in terms of how the situation might have been viewed before the age of trial by public opinion of parents. There would be clear risks to moving her body later on, but not necessarily any bigger risk than putting her in the car to begin with, if they thought police might leave them alone for a bit. Of course, police would probably watch any hand off, so for that reason, I don't find it a great theory. But maybe during the bank trip would have seemed feasible.

I think you’re wrong. I think the risk of the police or Mrs Ramsey, etc finding the body in the house is much greater than finding it in the trunk of the car. And, putting it in the trunk first saves time and eliminates the risk of being seen trying to move it from the basement and through the house and into the garage later on, when everyone is up. There is simply no reason to create a ransom note and report a kidnapping if the body is not disposed of and there simply is no reason for that body to be in the basement if the intent was to dispose of it.

I can understand the Ramseys thinking that their house would not be searched, but they should have expected it to be treated as a crime scene. They should have expected their house to be put under surveillance, they should have expected to have their communications monitored and their movements followed. They should have expected police to be “on the lookout” and “alerted.” Beyond doubt, the Ramseys would have needed to dispose of the body before any of this occurred and it is not reasonable to think that they did not realize this.
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AK

 

[lawstudent]

I think you’re wrong. I think the risk of the police or Mrs Ramsey, etc finding the body in the house is much greater than finding it in the trunk of the car. And, putting it in the trunk first saves time and eliminates the risk of being seen trying to move it from the basement and through the house and into the garage later on, when everyone is up. There is simply no reason to create a ransom note and report a kidnapping if the body is not disposed of and there simply is no reason for that body to be in the basement if the intent was to dispose of it.

I can understand the Ramseys thinking that their house would not be searched, but they should have expected it to be treated as a crime scene. They should have expected their house to be put under surveillance, they should have expected to have their communications monitored and their movements followed. They should have expected police to be “on the lookout” and “alerted.” Beyond doubt, the Ramseys would have needed to dispose of the body before any of this occurred and it is not reasonable to think that they did not realize this.
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AK

Well there is the issue that putting her in the trunk removed any element of denial if she were discovered. That's the reason people argue John 'found' her, realizing if he didn't do it then, it was going to be hard to explain why he hadn't looked very hard when the police or the friend inevitably found her. Finding her in the house looked bad enough, but finding her in John's trunk would point the finger right at him. Under that theory, he didn't expect police to find her, until the police detective didn't leave and told everyone to search. So that would indicate he did intend to move her. I don't know why everyone being up was the issue - if Patsy was allegedly in on it, it didn't matter. If she wasn't, I'm sure he could have distracted her. And it would be easy to hide the transfer from Burke, especially if both parents were in on it. The police are the problem, not the family.

A crime scene would be searched - that's what I mean. The police weren't focused on the house as the crime scene at that point. They were, however, expecting the kidnapper to try and make contact, so yes, they would be monitoring communications and John's comings and goings related to the money. Maybe monitoring the house, but not necessarily - a kidnapper doesn't usually come back, unless that's where he wants to do the hand off. I agree that it would have been very hard for John to not be seen disposing of a body because police would want to tail him everywhere, which is where the scenario kind of falls apart. It's not a great scenario by any means. But it is more logical to me than any other one, because, as you said, there is no point to the note if there wasn't some plan to remove her, but there's also no point to the intruder doing it.

 

[gramcracker]

Beyond doubt, the Ramseys would have needed to dispose of the body before any of this occurred and it is not reasonable to think that they did not realize this.

what defies logic is JR not realizing/recognizing that he would not be allowed to just fly off into the sunset. thirty minutes after his daughter's body was discovered! I mean: "OK, I have an important meeting so we're taking off now. be sure to lock up when you've finished doing whatever with our home. she'll be fine in the morgue, right? and please, call us if you have any questions"

I don't think these people were reasonable, by any stretch of the imagination

 

[Detective Pinkie]

I think you’re wrong. I think the risk of the police or Mrs Ramsey, etc finding the body in the house is much greater than finding it in the trunk of the car. And, putting it in the trunk first saves time and eliminates the risk of being seen trying to move it from the basement and through the house and into the garage later on, when everyone is up. There is simply no reason to create a ransom note and report a kidnapping if the body is not disposed of and there simply is no reason for that body to be in the basement if the intent was to dispose of it.

I can understand the Ramseys thinking that their house would not be searched, but they should have expected it to be treated as a crime scene. They should have expected their house to be put under surveillance, they should have expected to have their communications monitored and their movements followed. They should have expected police to be “on the lookout” and “alerted.” Beyond doubt, the Ramseys would have needed to dispose of the body before any of this occurred and it is not reasonable to think that they did not realize this.
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AK

But the police did not treat it like a crime scene. Look at what actually happened. The police were in the house for like 5 hours and they didn't find JB. John did. Fleet White looked and didn't find her. They did not seriously search the house because they thought it was a kidnapping. Arndt sent John and Fleet to search the house to give them something to do. She didn't think they would find anything or they wouldn't have been sent. So if their plan was to hope the police didn't search the house and move her later, then it was working. And the note did work at deflecting attention away from the house.

Some people speculate that the Rs were waiting for the police to leave and then they would discover the body and say she was brought back to the house dead because the ransom note was ignored. I am not sure about this but it is a possibility.

There are some who think JB was not in the wine cellar the whole time, that she was moved there later. I don't think that is the case but that would cover your suggestion that she should have been somewhere like the trunk of the car. Maybe they were planning to dispose of the body after the police left but it was taking too long so they moved her.

Again, I can believe those scenarios more than the guy sitting and writing the most convoluted ransom note he can , while either waiting for his victim to get home or while 3 people slept near by.

MOO

 

[midwest mama]

But, there is nothing that occurred that suggests any such plan was in effect. Mr Ramsey allowed, even agreed, to the 911 call – no discussion, no dissension, no delay. So, what you suggest cannot be true.
.

What you are doing here is offering reasons why the body was not disposed of. But, if they – or, one of them – felt that they could not risk such a task, there would have been no reason to even contemplate faking or reporting a kidnapping. No disposal = no kidnapping; no disposal = no reason to even think of a kidnapping.
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AK

BBM This is assuming we believe the Ramsey's account of making the call/the timeline, etc. It is not hard for me to believe that PR made that call before JR was in a location near her to know she was doing it. I do believe he could have gotten there as the call went down, but not in time to stop it. He would have had to say he told her to do it early on, in an attempt to "unicriminate" himself. PR never contested this until much later in the investigation. Early on, if she was innocent and suspected no involvement from John, I believe she would have allowed him to say he stood behind making the call in order to help his position of involvement.

BTW, the reason I believe JR could have been away from the area when PR began the call is because I simply do not believe he made it all the way down to the kitchen to read the note (which was spread out on the floor) in his underwear at 5:52 am, and she would have been standing there NOT reading the note awaiting his directive to call police before she did, only to have him stay beside her a while longer, deal with Burke (as was later discovered), then go all the way back to their 3rd floor bedroom, complete his grooming, and appear well dressed and emotionally collected at the door when Officer French arrived at 6:02 am. Just too much running up and down and all around over two floors, to get all that accomplished in 10 minutes, IMO.

 

[lawstudent]

Another thing that comes to mind is why the wine cellar? Haven't people said that the pattern on her body indicates she wasn't moved after death? The wine cellar to me seems like someone trying to hide a body, maybe for later disposal. It wasn't like they left her lying in her bed or someplace obvious. That was the best hiding place in the house, most likely. If it was the Ramseys, it seems like they were trying to hide her until later. But why would she have died there? Any Ramsey scenario seems like it would not have taken place down there. I suppose there is an argument an intruder would assault and kill her there because it was relatively private, but still doesn't explain why he'd write the ransom note if that was his intent.

 

[bettybaby00]

Another thing that comes to mind is why the wine cellar? Haven't people said that the pattern on her body indicates she wasn't moved after death? The wine cellar to me seems like someone trying to hide a body, maybe for later disposal. It wasn't like they left her lying in her bed or someplace obvious. That was the best hiding place in the house, most likely. If it was the Ramseys, it seems like they were trying to hide her until later. But why would she have died there? Any Ramsey scenario seems like it would not have taken place down there. I suppose there is an argument an intruder would assault and kill her there because it was relatively private, but still doesn't explain why he'd write the ransom note if that was his intent.

The WC is another red flag. The urine stain on the carpet outside the WC indicates this is where she died. And although this area offered privacy, that privacy left no means of escape. This would have been another huge risk to take by an intruder. Criminals seek to minimize risk. Instead we have an intruder who made the situation even riskier then it needed to be, i.e., staying in the house for so long, and relying on finding items in the home to perpetrate the crime.

 

[Zzzz]

The WC is another red flag. The urine stain on the carpet outside the WC indicates this is where she died. And although this area offered privacy, that privacy left no means of escape. This would have been another huge risk to take by an intruder. Criminals seek to minimize risk. Instead we have an intruder who made the situation even riskier then it needed to be, i.e., staying in the house for so long, and relying on finding items in the home to perpetrate the crime.

The circumstances point to a Ramsey. Yet the death by asphyxiation means JB was murdered by intent. Why kill your child this way unless you are overcome by uncontrollable rage? It's all very strange and full of inconsistenies, which is why this forum remains active.

 

[bettybaby00]

The circumstances point to a Ramsey. Yet the death by asphyxiation means JB was murdered by intent. Why kill your child this way unless you are overcome by uncontrollable rage? It's all very strange and full of inconsistenies, which is why this forum remains active.

BBM

Ain't that the truth! :lol:

 

[Tawny]

Was anyone else aware that Ransom starring Mel Gibson was released in 1996?

 

[chlban]

what defies logic is JR not realizing/recognizing that he would not be allowed to just fly off into the sunset. thirty minutes after his daughter's body was discovered! I mean: "OK, I have an important meeting so we're taking off now. be sure to lock up when you've finished doing whatever with our home. she'll be fine in the morgue, right? and please, call us if you have any questions"

I don't think these people were reasonable, by any stretch of the imagination

BBM. This is an excellent point that I think gets lost too often. IDI's say it is unreasonable that they wouldn't ahve relaized the house would be thoroughly searched, but it is every bit as unreasonable to think they would be allowed to leave town.

Oh and the house was not thoroughly searched. I personally believe Patsy hid the body without John's Knowledge, and she did a pretty good job of hiding it. Of course John knew about the room and sooner or later the cops, pesumably, would have located it on their own, but it bought time, and added to the confusion.

Add to that, that most of us do not believe this was some pre-planned, well thought out murder and you have the framework for a panic response. Would it have been better to take the body out of the house? Certainly, but there may have been good reasons why that didn't seem feasable to Patsy.

What always prevails, in my mind, is that the hidden body and RN were simply diversions Diversions that an intruder would have no need to create. In fact, for an intruder, writing a RN and moving the body to the basement simply increases the odds of leaving evidence behind. Additionally, since the "intruder" clearly had to leave the house, there is absolutely no reason not to have taken the body with him. Might have even gotten some Ransom Money out of it, Hauptmann did.



I think Patsy hid the bo

 

[bettybaby00]

Was anyone else aware that Ransom starring Mel Gibson was released in 1996?

Ha, I didn't realize that.

 

[Chelly]

But the police did not treat it like a crime scene. Look at what actually happened. The police were in the house for like 5 hours and they didn't find JB. John did. Fleet White looked and didn't find her. They did not seriously search the house because they thought it was a kidnapping. Arndt sent John and Fleet to search the house to give them something to do. She didn't think they would find anything or they wouldn't have been sent. So if their plan was to hope the police didn't search the house and move her later, then it was working. And the note did work at deflecting attention away from the house.

Some people speculate that the Rs were waiting for the police to leave and then they would discover the body and say she was brought back to the house dead because the ransom note was ignored. I am not sure about this but it is a possibility.

There are some who think JB was not in the wine cellar the whole time, that she was moved there later. I don't think that is the case but that would cover your suggestion that she should have been somewhere like the trunk of the car. Maybe they were planning to dispose of the body after the police left but it was taking too long so they moved her.

Again, I can believe those scenarios more than the guy sitting and writing the most convoluted ransom note he can , while either waiting for his victim to get home or while 3 people slept near by.

MOO

I think it is unlikely that the body was ever placed in the trunk of the car. Most likely, the R's were savvy enough to know that at some stage of the investigation, cadaver dogs would be brought into the home. I have always thought the original plan was to dump the body away from the house. That plan changed when the R's worked out that John's car truck would reveal evidence.

 

[Anti-K]

Well there is the issue that putting her in the trunk removed any element of denial if she were discovered. That's the reason people argue John 'found' her, realizing if he didn't do it then, it was going to be hard to explain why he hadn't looked very hard when the police or the friend inevitably found her. Finding her in the house looked bad enough, but finding her in John's trunk would point the finger right at him. Under that theory, he didn't expect police to find her, until the police detective didn't leave and told everyone to search. So that would indicate he did intend to move her. I don't know why everyone being up was the issue - if Patsy was allegedly in on it, it didn't matter. If she wasn't, I'm sure he could have distracted her. And it would be easy to hide the transfer from Burke, especially if both parents were in on it. The police are the problem, not the family.

A crime scene would be searched - that's what I mean. The police weren't focused on the house as the crime scene at that point. They were, however, expecting the kidnapper to try and make contact, so yes, they would be monitoring communications and John's comings and goings related to the money. Maybe monitoring the house, but not necessarily - a kidnapper doesn't usually come back, unless that's where he wants to do the hand off. I agree that it would have been very hard for John to not be seen disposing of a body because police would want to tail him everywhere, which is where the scenario kind of falls apart. It's not a great scenario by any means. But it is more logical to me than any other one, because, as you said, there is no point to the note if there wasn't some plan to remove her, but there's also no point to the intruder doing it.

“Everyone being up” is an issue because we were discussing a situation where one Ramsey knew about the body but the other Ramsey didn’t know. The whole issue is the cops being called before the body was disposed of. This would not have happened if the Ramseys – one, or both – had planned to report a kidnapping.
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AK

 

[Anti-K]

But the police did not treat it like a crime scene. Look at what actually happened. The police were in the house for like 5 hours and they didn't find JB. John did. Fleet White looked and didn't find her. They did not seriously search the house because they thought it was a kidnapping. Arndt sent John and Fleet to search the house to give them something to do. She didn't think they would find anything or they wouldn't have been sent. So if their plan was to hope the police didn't search the house and move her later, then it was working. And the note did work at deflecting attention away from the house.

Some people speculate that the Rs were waiting for the police to leave and then they would discover the body and say she was brought back to the house dead because the ransom note was ignored. I am not sure about this but it is a possibility.

There are some who think JB was not in the wine cellar the whole time, that she was moved there later. I don't think that is the case but that would cover your suggestion that she should have been somewhere like the trunk of the car. Maybe they were planning to dispose of the body after the police left but it was taking too long so they moved her.

Again, I can believe those scenarios more than the guy sitting and writing the most convoluted ransom note he can , while either waiting for his victim to get home or while 3 people slept near by.

MOO

The house was treated like a crime scene, they just didn’t do a very good job of it: crime techs showed up before the body was discovered; there was a cursory (poorly conducted) search of the house inside and outside, there were photographs and video taken, there was dusting for fingerprints, etc.
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AK

 

[Anti-K]

BBM This is assuming we believe the Ramsey's account of making the call/the timeline, etc. It is not hard for me to believe that PR made that call before JR was in a location near her to know she was doing it. I do believe he could have gotten there as the call went down, but not in time to stop it. He would have had to say he told her to do it early on, in an attempt to "unicriminate" himself. PR never contested this until much later in the investigation. Early on, if she was innocent and suspected no involvement from John, I believe she would have allowed him to say he stood behind making the call in order to help his position of involvement.

BTW, the reason I believe JR could have been away from the area when PR began the call is because I simply do not believe he made it all the way down to the kitchen to read the note (which was spread out on the floor) in his underwear at 5:52 am, and she would have been standing there NOT reading the note awaiting his directive to call police before she did, only to have him stay beside her a while longer, deal with Burke (as was later discovered), then go all the way back to their 3rd floor bedroom, complete his grooming, and appear well dressed and emotionally collected at the door when Officer French arrived at 6:02 am. Just too much running up and down and all around over two floors, to get all that accomplished in 10 minutes, IMO.

The Ramsey account is the only one that we have, and while the story has varied somewhat none of the versions have any discussion, dissension or delay occurring before the 911 call is made. And, considering how early the call was made I tend to think that no discussion, dissension or delay occurred.

If Mr Ramsey had not yet disposed of the body than he would have had to make sure that Mrs Ramsey did not panic and call the police. He could have done this easily by “following” Mrs Ramsey until she discovered the note. Then, he could have read it with her, and pointed out the extreme threats and talked her out of making the call (until after he had disposed of the body).
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AK

 

[Anti-K]

Another thing that comes to mind is why the wine cellar? Haven't people said that the pattern on her body indicates she wasn't moved after death? The wine cellar to me seems like someone trying to hide a body, maybe for later disposal. It wasn't like they left her lying in her bed or someplace obvious. That was the best hiding place in the house, most likely. If it was the Ramseys, it seems like they were trying to hide her until later. But why would she have died there? Any Ramsey scenario seems like it would not have taken place down there. I suppose there is an argument an intruder would assault and kill her there because it was relatively private, but still doesn't explain why he'd write the ransom note if that was his intent.

It may have been no more than that the killer had nowhere else to take his victim.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

The WC is another red flag. The urine stain on the carpet outside the WC indicates this is where she died. And although this area offered privacy, that privacy left no means of escape. This would have been another huge risk to take by an intruder. Criminals seek to minimize risk. Instead we have an intruder who made the situation even riskier then it needed to be, i.e., staying in the house for so long, and relying on finding items in the home to perpetrate the crime.

Intruders take risks. All criminals do.
...

AK