Patsy Ramsey

[UKGuy]

I do not believe the panties had blood on them before she was wiped down. Even though they were much too big for her, pulling the long johns up over them would bring them closer to the body. The extra fabric might bunch up, but the crotch wouldn't droop far away from her body as of she were wearing them alone or under a nightdress. If you can picture her lying down in them, I can see how the blood drops might have ended up there, even though they would not match up to her injuries had she been standing in them and if the crotch fit the way panties are supposed to fit.

DeeDee249,
BBM: So do you think Coroner Meyer made an elementary mistake, i.e. he thought she had been wiped down because the bloodstain on the underwear was not close to her internal injury?

Autopsy Report, 08/06/90, excerpt

Beneath the long underwear are white panties with printed rose buds and the words "Wednesday" on the elastic waist band. The underwear is urine stained and in the inner aspect of the crotch are several red areas of staining measuring up to 0.5 inch in maximum dimension.

Note here Coroner Meyer says nothing about the orientation of the underwear, they may have been on back to front? What does inner aspect of the crotch mean in this context?

.

 

[andreww]

DeeDee249,
BBM: So do you think Coroner Meyer made an elementary mistake, i.e. he thought she had been wiped down because the bloodstain on the underwear was not close to her internal injury?


.

Im pretty sure that was not the reason for his statement that she had been wiped. I believe that under ultraviolet light, the area that was wiped became quite evident.

 

[Anti-K]

Yes memory is malleable and fallible, but we usually have a better memory regarding an occasion that was important/momentous. I think that would be more so when you know you will have to speak to police later.

I was going through the 98 interview and PR used "I don't know" or "I can't/don't remember" or variation of, 48 times before I had gotten through a quarter, maybe even a fifth of the interview. I hit that number when she was speaking about the Whites and their falling out. So she forgot an awful lot in a year. And going into detail after you have said "I don't know/remember" doesn't mean a whole lot. Any discrepancies are covered by the fact that you said you didn't know/remember.

I just had a quick glance at the ’98 interview. I searched for “remember,” and I looked at the first 30 instances. Discounting when an interviewer used the word, Mrs Ramsey couldn’t remember 14 times, could remember 11 times, and a cpl times were ambiguous.

Of the 14 times she couldn’t remember, some of these were in response to the same question so, we’re down to maybe ten times. Of those, she couldn’t remember things like, were the lights off or on, the exact sequence of an event, or she doesn’t remember “exactly,” was it a Saturday or a Sunday, etc. Normal, expected things. Nothing out of the ordinary, nothing strange, nothing that could help or hinder investigators.

Really, I think we need to look at interviews of this type given by other persons in similar circumstances before we can make too much out of this. I’m pretty confident that with comparison we’d find that there really isn’t anything unusual in the way things were or were to remembered. It is, as they say, much ado about nothing.
...

AK

 

[Mama2JML]

This is from Patsy's June 1998 BPD interview:

23 TOM HANEY: Maybe this time with a
24 broken line you can just indicate going back
25 down.
0044
1 (MS. RAMSEY COMPLIES.)
2 TOM HANEY: You're still the green
3 one. You come down the spiral stairs. The note
4 is--
5 PATSY RAMSEY: The note is --
6 TOM HANEY: -- same place,
7 different place?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Somewhere in this
9 area, maybe still on the floor or something, you
10 know. I don't know what happened to it exactly
11 when I bounded upstairs. I think it was right
12 there somewhere.

How can the note still be on the floor when she made no mention prior to that about it being on the floor?

She had mentioned it, previously, during the same interview.

 

[Detective Pinkie]

I just had a quick glance at the ’98 interview. I searched for “remember,” and I looked at the first 30 instances. Discounting when an interviewer used the word, Mrs Ramsey couldn’t remember 14 times, could remember 11 times, and a cpl times were ambiguous.

Of the 14 times she couldn’t remember, some of these were in response to the same question so, we’re down to maybe ten times. Of those, she couldn’t remember things like, were the lights off or on, the exact sequence of an event, or she doesn’t remember “exactly,” was it a Saturday or a Sunday, etc. Normal, expected things. Nothing out of the ordinary, nothing strange, nothing that could help or hinder investigators.

Really, I think we need to look at interviews of this type given by other persons in similar circumstances before we can make too much out of this. I’m pretty confident that with comparison we’d find that there really isn’t anything unusual in the way things were or were to remembered. It is, as they say, much ado about nothing.
...

AK

I agree - I don't think that the I don't knows and i can't remembers or I don't recalls are all that important in the scheme of things. It is in context with the other inconsistencies and what they seem to have problems remembering versus what they do remember.
I don't think it is surprising that PR can't remember which lights they left on or which brand of makeup she used. But she isn't sure whether she picked up the note and handed it to JR or if she left it on the stairs. There is confusion over who checked which bedroom when. She only scanned the note but knows details like the author and not to contact anyone because she looked over JR's shoulder. Was this while she was screaming and pacing? It is all vague and unsure what happened when, full of maybes and thinks. I am not expecting them to remember unimportant details or conversations word for word but I think they should have a much better memory of the order of events but they are not sure or don't know or can't remember.

 

[icedtea4me]

She had mentioned it, previously, during the same interview.

Will you please copy and paste that part? I've read through her interview quite a few times and have seen nothing about her stating the note was on the floor prior to her saying she ran up the stairs to notify John about it.

 

[Mama2JML]

Will you please copy and paste that part? I've read through her interview quite a few times and have seen nothing about her stating the note was on the floor prior to her saying she ran up the stairs to notify John about it.

PR, 1998:
"16 And then I started down the stairs,
17 this staircase, to go to the kitchen. And the
18 note was on the landing, on the stairs, the
19 bottom of the stairs here. And I, there was
20 some lighting on, but it wasn't bright lights
21 (INAUDIBLE) and looked -- you know, started
22 reading the letter.
23 And after the first couple of
24 sentences realized, you know, what was
25 happening, and I ran back up these stairs, okay,
0010
1 and pushed her door to her room right here, and
2 she was not in her bed. So I went over to these
3 stairs and yelled out for John, called to him
4 and he came down. And I said "she's been
5 kidnapped, here's a note," whatever. And I was
6 panicking, you know. I think -- I can't
7 remember exactly what I did then, whether -- I
8 think I ran downstairs again.
9 I said, you know, "what do we do,
10 what do we do?"
11 He said, "call 911, call the
12 police."
13 I ran upstairs, and I think -- I
14 think -- I -- I can't remember if -- I think
15 asked him to check on Burke, one of us checked
16 on Burke, and I remember just seeing him at the
17 phone, trying to -- and then I looked down and
18 John came down and on the floor, down here
19 (indicating), I came in here, here, and John
20 came down, I went to the telephone here, and he
21 kind of crouched on the floor, he was in his
22 underwear, and read the papers on the floor
23 right there..."

 

[icedtea4me]

PR, 1998:
"16 And then I started down the stairs,
17 this staircase, to go to the kitchen. And the
18 note was on the landing, on the stairs, the
19 bottom of the stairs here. And I, there was
20 some lighting on, but it wasn't bright lights
21 (INAUDIBLE) and looked -- you know, started
22 reading the letter.
23 And after the first couple of
24 sentences realized, you know, what was
25 happening, and I ran back up these stairs, okay,
0010
1 and pushed her door to her room right here, and
2 she was not in her bed. So I went over to these
3 stairs and yelled out for John, called to him
4 and he came down. And I said "she's been
5 kidnapped, here's a note," whatever. And I was
6 panicking, you know. I think -- I can't
7 remember exactly what I did then, whether -- I
8 think I ran downstairs again.
9 I said, you know, "what do we do,
10 what do we do?"
11 He said, "call 911, call the
12 police."
13 I ran upstairs, and I think -- I
14 think -- I -- I can't remember if -- I think
15 asked him to check on Burke, one of us checked
16 on Burke, and I remember just seeing him at the
17 phone, trying to -- and then I looked down and
18 John came down and on the floor, down here
19 (indicating), I came in here, here, and John
20 came down, I went to the telephone here, and he
21 kind of crouched on the floor, he was in his
22 underwear, and read the papers on the floor
23 right there..."

25 TOM HANEY: What is John's -- how
0042
1 is he dressed?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: He is in his
3 underwear.
4 TOM HANEY: Just shorts or--
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
6 TOM HANEY: Okay. And what
7 conversation, what does he say to you?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: God, I can't
9 remember.
10 TOM HANEY: Okay. He still hasn't
11 felt the impact of this, right?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: No. He said, "you
13 know, slowdown" or "what is it, what is it", and
14 I said, you know, "I went downstairs, there is a
15 letter, says she's been kidnapped."
16 And he said, "where is the letter?"
17 I said -- I think I said, "oh, my
18 God, Burke" or something. And I think he ran in
19 to start to check on Burke.
20 TOM HANEY: So let's just do
21 this --
22 PATSY RAMSEY: And I said, "there
23 is a letter downstairs. "
24 TOM HANEY: So you--
25 PATSY RAMSEY: And I think I went
0043
1 down and got it. I just can't remember
2 everything.
3 TOM HANEY: To the best of your
4 recollection, we will just take a second here,
5 again with the red marker, let's indicate where
6 John goes? You said he goes to check on Burke?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: I think he went to
8 check on Burke.
9 TOM HANEY: Would you just draw
10 where he goes and then he leaves your sight so--
11 PATSY RAMSEY: He's not leaving my
12 sight. You know, he went through the first
13 room, he went this way.
14 TOM HANEY: Did he say he was going
15 to go check on Burke or did you tell him to, or
16 do you recall?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I just don't recall.
18 TOM HANEY: He leaves presumably,
19 to do that. You're standing here still, you're
20 the other red X. What do you do?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: I went back
22 downstairs.
23 TOM HANEY: Maybe this time with a
24 broken line you can just indicate going back
25 down.
0044
1 (MS. RAMSEY COMPLIES.)
2 TOM HANEY: You're still the green
3 one. You come down the spiral stairs. The note
4 is--
5 PATSY RAMSEY: The note is --
6 TOM HANEY: -- same place,
7 different place?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Somewhere in this
9 area, maybe still on the floor or something, you
10 know. I don't know what happened to it exactly
11 when I bounded upstairs. I think it was right
12 there somewhere.

 

[Anti-K]

I agree - I don't think that the I don't knows and i can't remembers or I don't recalls are all that important in the scheme of things. It is in context with the other inconsistencies and what they seem to have problems remembering versus what they do remember.
I don't think it is surprising that PR can't remember which lights they left on or which brand of makeup she used. But she isn't sure whether she picked up the note and handed it to JR or if she left it on the stairs. There is confusion over who checked which bedroom when. She only scanned the note but knows details like the author and not to contact anyone because she looked over JR's shoulder. Was this while she was screaming and pacing? It is all vague and unsure what happened when, full of maybes and thinks. I am not expecting them to remember unimportant details or conversations word for word but I think they should have a much better memory of the order of events but they are not sure or don't know or can't remember.

If these people are innocent, than surely they were in a state of panic and shock, so, I don’t really understand why you think that they would/should remember things from that morning with any clarity or certainty.
...

AK

 

[andreww]

.

Many (most? all?) of these types of answers are given to questions that really don’t tell us anything meaningful, and many of them are not unexpected answers.
...

AK

Questions like "is that your flashlight?", "do you recognize the Santa bear?", "what time did you get up?", and "did you ever touch the note?".

Let's be honest here, in Patsy's interviews her timelines simply make no sense, her memory about important facts is poor, yet her memory of insignificant things is spot on.

I've read those interviews many times, and it's insulting for you to try to suggest here that Patsy's memory was only weak on insignificant items. In fact I would say her answers about any hard pieces of evidence or time related matters was non committal.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[andreww]

If these people are innocent, than surely they were in a state of panic and shock, so, I don’t really understand why you think that they would/should remember things from that morning with any clarity or certainty.
...

AK

They didn't seem to panicked on Larry King. Maybe they should have answered LEs questions then.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Detective Pinkie]

If these people are innocent, than surely they were in a state of panic and shock, so, I don’t really understand why you think that they would/should remember things from that morning with any clarity or certainty.
...

AK

The simple answer - because I am not sure they are innocent. Which is not as glib as it sounds: many factors in this case make me doubt that they are innocent and I find it very convenient that they can't remember things with too much clarity. I only counted "I don't know" and I don't/can't remember" and "I don't/can't recall". I didn't count "maybe" or "think" and other variants and there were alot more of those. It all comes out sounding rather vague including around important information not just insignificant, forgettable details.

You say that it is understandable that in their state that many details may have become confused. Possible. But in a situation where you are filled with anxiety and/or adrenaline you can become hyperaware of details and they don't seem to be. Also, as I already mentioned, memory is usually better when it involves an event that is out of the ordinary. If I asked you what you did on Monday 2 months ago you would probably struggle to remember and say things like "probably" or "usually" but if I asked you to remember something that happened on a day that was significant you would be more likely to give a more detailed answer. It's the old where were you when JFK was shot question, or 9/11 for the younger members.
It was Christmas the day before. That is not a usual day for most people so should have some pointers for the memory. The party was at the White's which is unusual because the Ramsey's usually had the party but decided not to that year. Then there was the Charlevoix trip they had to get ready for, not a normal event. Lastly the events of the 26th which were most definitely not everyday. I just think that some of the things they have trouble with should have been more memorable.

 

[celticthyme]

The whole made up scenario about READING the note is nonsense. They WROTE the note.

 

[Tawny]

If these people are innocent, than surely they were in a state of panic and shock, so, I don’t really understand why you think that they would/should remember things from that morning with any clarity or certainty.
...

AK

Why do we excuse PR and JR for not remembering anything but then expect BR to remember allofthethings?

 

[andreww]

Why do we excuse PR and JR for not remembering anything but then expect BR to remember allofthethings?

As a parent you would expect certain aspects of your child's last day on earth to be etched in your brain for eternity. Like what she ate for her last meal at the White's. Patsy doesn't even know if she even ate apparently. The events as of the time they walked in the front door of their house should still be crystal clear because they should have been replaying them in their mind on a daily basis. The reason things became cloudy for them so quickly is that the story they told never happened. Its one thing to make up a story, it's quite another to tell it with any consistency on a repeated basis.

 

[Anti-K]

Questions like "is that your flashlight?", "do you recognize the Santa bear?", "what time did you get up?", and "did you ever touch the note?".

Let's be honest here, in Patsy's interviews her timelines simply make no sense, her memory about important facts is poor, yet her memory of insignificant things is spot on.

I've read those interviews many times, and it's insulting for you to try to suggest here that Patsy's memory was only weak on insignificant items. In fact I would say her answers about any hard pieces of evidence or time related matters was non committal.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ah, but I’m not suggesting that Mrs Ramsey’s “memory was only weak on insignificant items.” And, I think your interpretation of her answers are as of as your interpretations of my posts often are.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

They didn't seem to panicked on Larry King. Maybe they should have answered LEs questions then.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No one is saying that they were panicked when answering questions. It is being said that, if IDI, then “surely they were in a state of panic and shock” THAT morning when they discovered the ransom note.
...

AK

 

[andreww]

No one is saying that they were panicked when answering questions. It is being said that, if IDI, then “surely they were in a state of panic and shock” THAT morning when they discovered the ransom note.
...

AK

Again, their memory loss is very selective. The can remember irrelevant details very specifically, yet when it comes to details related to the crime they seem to always draw a blank.

 

[Anti-K]

The simple answer - because I am not sure they are innocent. Which is not as glib as it sounds: many factors in this case make me doubt that they are innocent and I find it very convenient that they can't remember things with too much clarity. I only counted "I don't know" and I don't/can't remember" and "I don't/can't recall". I didn't count "maybe" or "think" and other variants and there were alot more of those. It all comes out sounding rather vague including around important information not just insignificant, forgettable details.

You say that it is understandable that in their state that many details may have become confused. Possible. But in a situation where you are filled with anxiety and/or adrenaline you can become hyperaware of details and they don't seem to be. Also, as I already mentioned, memory is usually better when it involves an event that is out of the ordinary. If I asked you what you did on Monday 2 months ago you would probably struggle to remember and say things like "probably" or "usually" but if I asked you to remember something that happened on a day that was significant you would be more likely to give a more detailed answer. It's the old where were you when JFK was shot question, or 9/11 for the younger members.
It was Christmas the day before. That is not a usual day for most people so should have some pointers for the memory. The party was at the White's which is unusual because the Ramsey's usually had the party but decided not to that year. Then there was the Charlevoix trip they had to get ready for, not a normal event. Lastly the events of the 26th which were most definitely not everyday. I just think that some of the things they have trouble with should have been more memorable.

I don’t completely disagree with you here.

I think much more is remembered about the morning (and preceding day/evening) than is given credit for. It’s the details that are not necessarily remembered with clarity. This seems not unusual. One might remember where they were on 9/11, but if questioned in detail, I’m sure one would discover many, many things about such a day not remembered in detail. And, of those things remembered – how many are accurate memories? I don’t know.

Stress, anxiety, panic, shock, etc can all have – DO have – an impact on how memories are formed stored; and, even something as simple as how a question is phrased can affect how memories are retrieved. This is a tricky and complicated business.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

As a parent you would expect certain aspects of your child's last day on earth to be etched in your brain for eternity. Like what she ate for her last meal at the White's. Patsy doesn't even know if she even ate apparently. The events as of the time they walked in the front door of their house should still be crystal clear because they should have been replaying them in their mind on a daily basis. The reason things became cloudy for them so quickly is that the story they told never happened. Its one thing to make up a story, it's quite another to tell it with any consistency on a repeated basis.

Lies are easy.

I got out of bed. I went to Jonbenet’s bedroom. There was a note on her bed. She was gone. I called the police.
....

AK