Peculiar letters from the RN

[BBB167893]

Yes, one can think if this is the case maybe their own lawyers didn't believe in the R's innocence or they knew the truth of PR did right the RN and Tom Miller having a grest standing in his field would cause their little house of cards to come crashing down...Cause if they went to court what would really hurt them...

I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[BBB167893]

One RDI thinks the RN was written very slow, another thinks it was written in a hasty panic. OK.

We're not all of one single mind, you know.

Disguising the RN handwriting by occasionally boxing letters is also irrational. Maybe look for rational reasons why someone would volunteer 1500+ characters of mixed boxed/unboxed style handwriting at a capital murder.

Rational does not mean the same thing as competent. Intelligence does not mean the same thing as knowing what you're doing. Let me put it this way: you wouldn't trust your accountant to unstop your plumbing, would you.

Let me put it another way: the only way to figure this case is to have the proper respect for the difference between knowledge and wisdom.

BTW you avoided the question. Imagine yourself in the most completely irrational hasty panic you've ever been in. Would you do it? Would you write the RN and add to it threats of unusual violence to a child not related to ransom? Not found in other ransom notes?

I don't know WHAT I would do, and frankly I pray I'll never have to find out.

But I know this much: when a person thinks they're cornered, they'll do just about anything.

 

[Ravyn]

To me them going after someone or not, is not that informative- the motive is just speculation and could derive from innocence or guilt. It seems that the handwriting analysis is not very reliable. Perhaps the findings of Dr. Lee for example, are based on scientific facts such as the structure and erosion of the hymen, though I would imagine it`s still speculative to say that there was prior abuse, let alone to identify the abuser. But no point going after him and his findings.

Anyway, I guess the question was, if Tom Miller issue is a problem for IDI, and I don`t think it is.

This is very much so informative..If it was you would you defend hand writting over prior sexual abuse to a child of 6 years old..This is what I ask myself..Well duh,prior sexual abuse cause you have top notch people saying yeah there is prior sexual abuse..And Tom Miller was with hand writting hmmmmm strange..But anytime someone set out to totally make someone damage goods you have to sit back and say why? if you innocent you go after someone over handwritting and not over prior SEXUAL ABUSE.

 

[Mysteeri]

Didn`t notice this post earlier. SuperDave wrote:
You don't seem to understand, Mysteeri. If she didn't write it, then what did they have to worry about? Why not just take him to court themselves if it was so easy to prove him wrong?

I think I understand better now, but my own point has not really changed- the motive is speculation. Ok, their purpose was to prevent this damaging statement from being presented in court. Even if innocent, they might not think they have nothing to worry about since this respected specialist claims Patsy wrote the letter when she didn`t. It`s not easy to prove a specialist wrong in handwriting analysis since it`s a matter of interpretation, but if a respected specialist says I determine she wrote it, people might take it seriously. But I understand your point- why not question his statement in court?

About the prior sexual abuse, what exactly was claimed, by who and on what basis? The possible abuser could have been someone outside the family, and again, the motive for not taking action is just speculation. Of course we can do that. So do you think that if guilty of prior sexual abuse, the R`s would have taken some action as in the case of handwriting analysis, and because they did not take action, they had nothing to worry about and are innocent? I don`t conclude much on the basis of taking action or not. How they treated Tom Miller seems troubling on it`s own though, from what I know.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

We're not all of one single mind, you know.

I know.

Rational does not mean the same thing as competent. Intelligence does not mean the same thing as knowing what you're doing. Let me put it this way: you wouldn't trust your accountant to unstop your plumbing, would you.

Let me put it another way: the only way to figure this case is to have the proper respect for the difference between knowledge and wisdom.

The sermon is nice but I'm not sure anyone is in any position to specify any rules like 'the only way to figure this case'. Let me put it another way: truth is fickle, it doesn't care who finds it.

I don't know WHAT I would do, and frankly I pray I'll never have to find out.

I'll bet my ** you won't handwrite 1500 characters while occasionally using a boxing style!

But I know this much: when a person thinks they're cornered, they'll do just about anything.

Here's another blank check explanation that can handle any crime scene phenomenon.

Anyway, can anybody think of any reason why someone would handwrite occasionally using a boxing style?

 

[BBB167893]

About the prior sexual abuse, what exactly was claimed, by who and on what basis?

So do you think that if guilty of prior sexual abuse, the R`s would have taken some action as in the case of handwriting analysis, and because they did not take action, they had nothing to worry about and are innocent? I don`t conclude much on the basis of taking action or not. How they treated Tom Miller seems troubling on it`s own though, from what I know.

Who are you asking?

 

[BBB167893]

I know.

Mm. Could have fooled me.

The sermon is nice

I do my best.

but I'm not sure anyone is in any position to specify any rules like 'the only way to figure this case'.

That's not just a rule for this case, HOTYH; it's a rule for life in general.

Let me put it another way: truth is fickle, it doesn't care who finds it.

I do not believe I said otherwise.

I'll bet my ** you won't handwrite 1500 characters while occasionally using a boxing style!

Gambling's a bad habit, HOTYH.

Here's another blank check explanation that can handle any crime scene phenomenon.

And I imagine that if you asked an experienced law enforcement agent, they'd tell you that it's often the CORRECT one. You keep using these dismissive terms like "wildcard" or "blank check." But you never stop to consider that they might be right, or that law enforcement uses those kinds of considerations.

But if that doesn't satisfy you, I don't really think of it as an explanation. It's more like a useful guideline.

On a personal note, from where I stand, "blank checks" and "wildcards" were exactly what the Rs were counting on, and there's no way to examine this case WITHOUT those kinds of thoughts. Believe me, I've tried.

Anyway, can anybody think of any reason why someone would handwrite occasionally using a boxing style?

None that would make any dent. I can see that clearly now.

 

[Tadpole12]

Hi Hotyh.

Anyway, can anybody think of any reason why someone would handwrite occasionally using a boxing style? -Hotyh

ya ... about the handwriting style: most block letter printers apply that style to upper case.
I've read that most individuals have three styles of handwriting.
Teens, they're often well practiced in dif styles of writing, doodles, art on binder covers.

If you were artistic you can draw upon many styles, you could write the whole rn, in partial, just the bodies of the exemplars, then add the tails and backs to the exemplars as the final step.
If you were conscious of the stops and starts of your own exemplars, you could attempt to change your method. But that's the wild thing about handwriting, IMO, it's second nature, so remnants of your own style can persisit, a lean ... a pen drag ....

 

[coco puff]

Hi Hotyh.

Anyway, can anybody think of any reason why someone would handwrite occasionally using a boxing style? -Hotyh

ya ... about the handwriting style: most block letter printers apply that style to upper case.
I've read that most individuals have three styles of handwriting.
Teens, they're often well practiced in dif styles of writing, doodles, art on binder covers.

If you were artistic you can draw upon many styles, you could write the whole rn, in partial, just the bodies of the exemplars, then add the tails and backs to the exemplars as the final step.
If you were conscious of the stops and starts of your own exemplars, you could attempt to change your method. But that's the wild thing about handwriting, IMO, it's second nature, so remnants of your own style can persisit, a lean ... a pen drag ....

This is exactly what I found, when I asked 3 people (who think/know they are intelligent) if they thought they could disguise their handwriting enough to fool experts. They all thought they could with 100% certainty and gave me an example. What Tadpole scribed above is exactly what all three did to change their writings. I could not match any of the know handwriting samples to any of the altered writing samples. Of course, if you are going to do this, certainly take your time and maybe even do a rough draft just to practice.

 

[Tadpole12]

This is exactly what I found, when I asked 3 people (who think/know they are intelligent) if they thought they could disguise their handwriting enough to fool experts. They all thought they could with 100% certainty and gave me an example. What Tadpole scribed above is exactly what all three did to change their writings. I could not match any of the know handwriting samples to any of the altered writing samples. Of course, if you are going to do this, certainly take your time and maybe even do a rough draft just to practice.

Hi coco puff.

Definately, digg it ....

that you enlisted 3 friends in your study. That's interesting that you found no resemblance in their disguised sample to their unmodified exemplars.

With PR's exemplars, there is that undeniable resemblance.

Did any of the 3 participants, have an artistic ability?

 

[coco puff]

Hi coco puff.

Definately, digg it ....

that you enlisted 3 friends in your study. That's interesting that you found no resemblance in their disguised sample to their unmodified exemplars.

With PR's exemplars, there is that undeniable resemblance.

Did any of the 3 participants, have an artistic ability?

It was just a paragraph each but I tried to guess who's belonged to whom and could not. One is an engineer, and two are Program developers like myself, all working for the same high-tech Co. I would say not so artistic but they sure knew how to distort a right angle. I really think PR would have had no doubt that she could have authored the RN without detection from LE. I think her theory was "if i didn't write it, you have buy it" her "version" of the truth, that is.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Hi Hotyh.

Anyway, can anybody think of any reason why someone would handwrite occasionally using a boxing style? -Hotyh

ya ... about the handwriting style: most block letter printers apply that style to upper case. But not lower case
I've read that most individuals have three styles of handwriting.
Teens, they're often well practiced in dif styles of writing, doodles, art on binder covers. Interesting, but the 'fat cat' expression and Victory! closing salutation rules out teen, IMO.

If you were artistic you can draw upon many styles, you could write the whole rn, in partial, just the bodies of the exemplars, then add the tails and backs to the exemplars as the final step. Not sure what you mean. Seems like a slow process. I thought PR was panicked and didn't know what to do. The thing you're describing seems slow, calculated, and effective.
If you were conscious of the stops and starts of your own exemplars, you could attempt to change your method. But that's the wild thing about handwriting, IMO, it's second nature, so remnants of your own style can persisit, a lean ... a pen drag ....

Responses in blue.

Thats what I think the boxed letters are. They are remnants of the authors writitng style, persisting here and there. Its the fact that the boxing is not found everywhere that makes me think its a remnant or trait and not a deliberate disguising. Additionally, it seems on the surface that the length of the RN, at over 1500 characters, indicates its author wasn't too worried about leaving a bunch of their handwriting at a capital crime scene, whether disguised or not. Otherwise the RN would've been shorter. Maybe a page but certainly not 2 1/2 pages.

 

[BBB167893]

Mm. Could have fooled me.

That's not just a rule for this case, HOTYH; it's a rule for life in general.

Gambling's a bad habit, HOTYH.

And I imagine that if you asked an experienced law enforcement agent, they'd tell you that it's often the CORRECT one. You keep using these dismissive terms like "wildcard" or "blank check." But you never stop to consider that they might be right, or that law enforcement uses those kinds of considerations.

But if that doesn't satisfy you, I don't really think of it as an explanation. It's more like a useful guideline.

On a personal note, from where I stand, "blank checks" and "wildcards" were exactly what the Rs were counting on, and there's no way to examine this case WITHOUT those kinds of thoughts. Believe me, I've tried.

None that would make any dent. I can see that clearly now.

While I wait for a response, let me say one more thing. When I say that cornered people will do insane things, it's not just a platitude, a variation on the "desperate people do desperate things" (which I still hold is a useful guideline in this case). It happened to someone I love. Growing up, my dad was the nicest guy around. As a young man, he hated violence. But when he joined the Marine Corps and went to Vietnam, he found out what would make him take another human being's life: survival. He would kill to stay alive.

 

[Tadpole12]

Responses in blue.

Thats what I think the boxed letters are. They are remnants of the authors writitng style, persisting here and there. Its the fact that the boxing is not found everywhere that makes me think its a remnant or trait and not a deliberate disguising. Additionally, it seems on the surface that the length of the RN, at over 1500 characters, indicates its author wasn't too worried about leaving a bunch of their handwriting at a capital crime scene, whether disguised or not. Otherwise the RN would've been shorter. Maybe a page but certainly not 2 1/2 pages.

Hi Hotyh.

Ya that's it, the length .... so much less would have sufficed. No need for a rn at all if both Ramseys were involved. But the length is not extraordinary, ie L&L, Patty Hearst as comparatives.

Ya, perhaps there's no indicator of age in the style, but you can see how someone would have a distinct handwriting style or the ability to write in unique styles if they had practiced, part of their repertoire.

Signage: within three horizontal planes

so orouo = group just add the tails after you form the body.
... oovise = advise just add the back and tail
... oooer ooo = paper bag

... looov = today

a c o and n v and l, these forms being the body or base, from which to add.



mirror images:

b d
p q

u
.c
n


w
m

s
s

even though the s appears the same when written upside down, the natural tendency would be for the upper cusp to be the smaller.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

While I wait for a response, let me say one more thing. When I say that cornered people will do insane things, it's not just a platitude, a variation on the "desperate people do desperate things" (which I still hold is a useful guideline in this case). It happened to someone I love. Growing up, my dad was the nicest guy around. As a young man, he hated violence. But when he joined the Marine Corps and went to Vietnam, he found out what would make him take another human being's life: survival. He would kill to stay alive.

"Most often its parents who sexually abuse children."

"Christmas can be a time of heightened depression and stress."

"Its hard to say what a murdering parent would do or say to cover up their crime. Anything is possible because they are backed into a corner. They would do things that draw on their own perception of crime."

These are examples of things we already knew before JBR was murdered, right?

Now we apply what we already knew to what happened and see how well it fits. Except, lets maximize one of the parents. Lets say JR or PR (take your pick) was off their prescribed anti-depressants, drank heavily during the holidays, had a big collection of violent books with every one of those lines, and had priors for sexual and physical abuse.

Can you guess in what direction the investigation would go?

To an intruder.

 

[Ravyn]

"Most often its parents who sexually abuse children."

"Christmas can be a time of heightened depression and stress."

"Its hard to say what a murdering parent would do or say to cover up their crime. Anything is possible because they are backed into a corner. They would do things that draw on their own perception of crime."

These are examples of things we already knew before JBR was murdered, right?

Now we apply what we already knew to what happened and see how well it fits. Except, lets maximize one of the parents. Lets say JR or PR (take your pick) was off their prescribed anti-depressants, drank heavily during the holidays, had a big collection of violent books with every one of those lines, and had priors for sexual and physical abuse.

Can you guess in what direction the investigation would go?

To an intruder.

Now I don't think that..if a child is found in a home or even missing the LE first always look at the parents now saying if they was drinking and off anti-depressants that the direction would go to intruder naw.But still with an intruder I still have heard of none so far leaving the victim in their home...Except JB

 

[Mysteeri]

Who are you asking?

Never mind..

If I were to even speculate on their innocence on the basis of going after people that claim prior sexual abuse vs writing the RN, I would have to know what exactly was claimed about the prior abuse- surely they could not identify the abuser? But writing the RN connects Patsy directly to the murder. (There are lot of speculations about the R`s character and behavior in this case that bother me, or seem poorly based, such as "Christmas can be a depressing and stressful time" (depends on people), "Patsy was stressed and had a fit of rage" (the fit lasted quite long then), "PR/JR sex life was little so J turned towards JBR" (he also turned pedophile))

I don`t have much to offer to these discussions, I`ll be reading about this case elsewhere for some time, and try to get the facts straight.

 

[BBB167893]

"Most often its parents who sexually abuse children."

"Christmas can be a time of heightened depression and stress."

"Its hard to say what a murdering parent would do or say to cover up their crime. Anything is possible because they are backed into a corner. They would do things that draw on their own perception of crime."

These are examples of things we already knew before JBR was murdered, right?

A very admirable summation.

Now we apply what we already knew to what happened and see how well it fits. Except, lets maximize one of the parents.

I'm game.

Lets say JR or PR (take your pick) was off their prescribed anti-depressants, drank heavily during the holidays, had a big collection of violent books with every one of those lines, and had priors for sexual and physical abuse.

Let's say.

Can you guess in what direction the investigation would go?

To an intruder.

Excuse me? How did you figure that?

 

[BBB167893]

Never mind..

If I were to even speculate on their innocence on the basis of going after people that claim prior sexual abuse vs writing the RN, I would have to know what exactly was claimed about the prior abuse- surely they could not identify the abuser? But writing the RN connects Patsy directly to the murder.

I see. Well, in that regard, only Cyril Wecht came close to saying who the specific abuser was.

There are lot of speculations about the R`s character and behavior in this case that bother me, or seem poorly based,

For what it's worth, I used to feel that way, too.

such as "Christmas can be a depressing and stressful time" (depends on people),

Depends, indeed.

"Patsy was stressed and had a fit of rage" (the fit lasted quite long then),

How do you figure? The head blow came in a fit of rage. Everything else was a desperate cover-up, IMO.

"PR/JR sex life was little so J turned towards JBR" (he also turned pedophile))

No. In that rubric, he didn't "turn pedophile." He became what is called a situational molester. I've tried to explain the difference here several times, yet I never seem to make a dent.

I don`t have much to offer to these discussions, I`ll be reading about this case elsewhere for some time, and try to get the facts straight.

Well, no need to go elsewhere. This place is one of the best, if not the best.

 

[Mysteeri]

"How do you figure? The head blow came in a fit of rage. Everything else was a desperate cover-up, IMO."

I think if she were a quite normal mother who loved her children, then after a fit of rage and an accidental (stronger than intended) head blow the rage would have vanished and she would have become desperate alright, about JB`s welbeing and she would have called the ambulance or something- isn`t it so that JB was still alive during the strangulation? The language in the RN contains cruel language, so to me she must have been out of her mind for quite some time. Now it is possible that she was in a desperate cover up state of mind, but I just mean that this is all speculation.

No. In that rubric, he didn't "turn pedophile." He became what is called a situational molester. I've tried to explain the difference here several times, yet I never seem to make a dent.

I wouldn`t mind understanding your differentiation. But isn`t it only pedophiles who are sexually attracted to children, even occasionally when their spouse is not "available"? John could have pursued grown women also.


Well, no need to go elsewhere. This place is one of the best, if not the best.


Alrighty then. I do already have a question about the Bonita Papers, but I`ll post it on the Fibers thread. (I just think I should read much more and not ask silly questions whenever I`m too lazy to find out for myself)