GUILTY Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #24

[annalia]

Since he failed so miserably at attempting to meticulously cleaning up the crime, I think that supports the argument that he was not thinking straight. It will be interesting to see if this legal argument succeeds.

I disagree, I think it shows that his plans to cover it up wasn't going to work out for him like he was planning so he had no other choice but to flee the country as fast as he could, get to a country where he hoped he couldn't be extradited. Which is exactly what he did. Googling extradition after murdering someone a pretty alert and cunning individual, imo

Maybe it will work and he will only get a few years for a vicious murder. Then he has his date with the US over his disgusting extortion of a victim's mother. I was speaking with a few attorney friends who I hold in high regard who both say the case against him is open and shut, they have him.

 

[otto]

I disagree, I think it shows that his plans to cover it up wasn't going to work out for him like he was planning so he had no other choice but to flee the country as fast as he could, get to a country where he hoped he couldn't be extradited. Which is exactly what he did. Googling extradition after murdering someone a pretty alert and cunning individual, imo

Maybe it will work and he will only get a few years for a vicious murder. Then he has his date with the US over his disgusting extortion of a victim's mother. I was speaking with a few attorney friends who I hold in high regard who both say the case against him is open and shut, they have him.

What was his plan? To lure Stephanie to his hotel room so he could murder her and then what? ... have no choice but to flee since there was no hope of cleaning up the scene? It seems far too clumsy to be a pre-planned murder. As a murderer who supposedly had lots of experience with murder and hiding all evidence, something is completely off with this murder.

 

[annalia]

What was his plan? To lure Stephanie to his hotel room so he could murder her and then what? ... have no choice but to flee since there was no hope of cleaning up the scene? It seems far too clumsy to be a pre-planned murder. As a murderer who supposedly had lots of experience with murder and hiding all evidence, something is completely off with this murder.

None of my comments said anything about a preplanned murder, I wasn't speaking to that, are you mixing up my words the same way you seemed to be mixing up Kelly's?

All of my comments and I'll also say Kelly's comments were clearly in reference to his plans and actions after his murder of Stephany, the girl he murdered in cold blood. the girl he went back to to make sure he finished her off after he saw her still breathing.
imo
Re the bolded, imo what is off with this murder was the lack of help he had to clean it up and make it all better for him.

 

[annalia]

I don't know where to find it now but I remember reading that Joran going back to strangle Stephany until she was dead after seeing that she was still alive made it pre meditated. Pre meditated murder doesn't mean that it had to be planned days or even hours prior to a murder.

 

[panthera]

What was his plan? To lure Stephanie to his hotel room so he could murder her and then what? ... have no choice but to flee since there was no hope of cleaning up the scene? It seems far too clumsy to be a pre-planned murder. As a murderer who supposedly had lots of experience with murder and hiding all evidence, something is completely off with this murder.

While I don't believe Joran lured her to his hotel room with the intent of murdering her, the fact that he wasn't able to cover up the crime or dispose of her body doesn't mean, imo, that he was "temporarily insane" either. At any point during the commission of the crime he could have stopped, giving her a chance to survive, however he chose not to. MOO

 

[dgfred]

What was his plan? To lure Stephanie to his hotel room so he could murder her and then what? ... have no choice but to flee since there was no hope of cleaning up the scene? It seems far too clumsy to be a pre-planned murder. As a murderer who supposedly had lots of experience with murder and hiding all evidence, something is completely off with this murder.

IMO it was theft.

I think he realized once he left the hotel that he wasn't getting away with the murder... only hoping to get away. Maybe even to a country on very friendly terms with Holland. Before he did leave I bet he have very serious thoughts about 'hiding' the body in nearby water. Once he noticed the cameras I believe any hopes he had of doing so were gone. IMO he might have flown into a rage, but it wasn't about her seeing something on the computer about Natalie. Any type of 'plea' deal is a pipe dream IMO.

 

[otto]

I don't know where to find it now but I remember reading that Joran going back to strangle Stephany until she was dead after seeing that she was still alive made it pre meditated. Pre meditated murder doesn't mean that it had to be planned days or even hours prior to a murder.

Should we believe what Joran said happened?

Pre-meditation, according to Nancy Grace, seems to occur the split second before someone is dead, but I'm not sure that all legal systems agree with that. Crime of passion has been around for a long time ... usually relating to someone having such an extreme emotional reaction to a situation that they are unable to control their actions that follow. After the crime, they snap out of it and react to what they did. Joran reacted by running, not cleaning up the scene or doing anything to hide his actions and participation in the murder. He certainly lied, but that's Joran's specialty. Of course he lied - means nothing other than that he is a liar.

 

[Nova]

I honestly don't know what Kelly means when he says " any suggestion he "flipped out for a moment" in killing Flores was mocked by the meticulous calculation of his attempt to cover up the crime and his escape."

It wasn't covered up. I see a cover up as sanitizing the scene and meticulously removing evidence of himself. The scene in the hotel room is exactly the opposite. There is evidence of him all over the place. Taking a couple of credit cards doesn't tell me that Joran meticulously tried to cover up the crime.

I understood that there was a message that came in while they were playing poker ... something about Joran being a "mongoloid". That, according to Joran, sparked the discussion about Natalie. Presumably there's a record of the message somewhere.

"The two were playing online poker on his laptop, said van der Sloot, when an insulting message arrived on the screen mentioning the Natalee Holloway case and saying, "I'm going to kill you, you little Mongoloid."

Ref: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20007595-504083.html

I could be wrong, otto, and I don't pretend to know Peruvian law, but in the U.S., "evidence to cover up a crime" can include "evidence to cover up one's participation in a crime." So JVDS' efforts to keep others out of the room (telling the clerk not to disturb "his girlfriend"), fleeing the jurisdiction, etc., would be included as part of the cover up, even though they didn't actually mask the actual murder for long.

 

[Nova]

I don't know where to find it now but I remember reading that Joran going back to strangle Stephany until she was dead after seeing that she was still alive made it pre meditated. Pre meditated murder doesn't mean that it had to be planned days or even hours prior to a murder.

That is correct, at least in the U.S. "Premeditation" can mean mere moments before the crime, basically no longer than it takes to form the thought.

 

[otto]

IMO it was theft.

I think he realized once he left the hotel that he wasn't getting away with the murder... only hoping to get away. Maybe even to a country on very friendly terms with Holland. Before he did leave I bet he have very serious thoughts about 'hiding' the body in nearby water. Once he noticed the cameras I believe any hopes he had of doing so were gone. IMO he might have flown into a rage, but it wasn't about her seeing something on the computer about Natalie. Any type of 'plea' deal is a pipe dream IMO.

I see this a little differently. I'm not convinced that he saw the cameras. There is footage of him looking up and down the hallway after leaving the room, and some people believe he saw the boxes on the wall and knew they were cameras, but I'm not convinced of that. The stories he told afterwards about someone else pursuing them, and even the staging of knocking on the door ... it isn't consistent with him knowing he was being filmed.

I'm curious about how this will be argued. Joran flying into a rage can be argued both ways: a raging crime of passion, or a rage that he normaly carried with him.

 

[Nova]

Should we believe what Joran said happened?

Pre-meditation, according to Nancy Grace, seems to occur the split second before someone is dead, but I'm not sure that all legal systems agree with that. Crime of passion has been around for a long time ... usually relating to someone having such an extreme emotional reaction to a situation that they are unable to control their actions that follow. After the crime, they snap out of it and react to what they did. Joran reacted by running, not cleaning up the scene or doing anything to hide his actions and participation in the murder. He certainly lied, but that's Joran's specialty. Of course he lied - means nothing other than that he is a liar.

All of those post-murder activities show consciousness of guilty, but I suspect you are right: in and of themselves, they don't prove premeditation.

The prosecution might be better off pursuing the theft angle.

 

[otto]

All of those post-murder activities show consciousness of guilty, but I suspect you are right: in and of themselves, they don't prove premeditation.

The prosecution might be better off pursuing the theft angle.

I think they are assuming that theft was the motive ... so why did he kill her? Couldn't he have found another way to get whatever money he wanted? ... like maybe wait until she was asleep? If theft was going to result in murder (pre-meditated), wouldn't he have realized that Peru is probably one of the dumbest places to be when murdering someone for money?

 

[annalia]

I don't think anyone needs to be told that Joran ran without doing anything to clean up the scene - the photos tell that story.

If Joran claims that a message came in (presumably this can be verified) and that sparked the altercation, then it doesn't matter what was on the computer from a day earlier.

I'm sorry, but I don't see any evidence of an attempt to meticulously clean up the crime.

My bolding

Semantics imo

He did not just flee the scene. He first made a number of attempts to cover his crime before fleeing the country, some of them were;

!. It was reported that an attempt was made to try to clean up blood, impossible to do with all of the blood but the point is the attempt made.
2. He tried to act as if Stephany was still alive in the room when he left the room to go buy two cups of coffee and bring them back to the room.
2. He pretended to be locked out of his room and had a maid open his door, presumably hoping she would see the body and he could claim it happened while he was gone.
3. He first contemplated taking Stephany out in a suitcase and disposing of her in the water. The only reason he couldn't accomplish it was because he didn't know where to get a suitcase and didn't have time.

 

[otto]

My bolding

Semantics imo

He did not just flee the scene. He first made a number of attempts to cover his crime before fleeing the country, some of them were;

!. It was reported that an attempt was made to try to clean up blood, impossible to do with all of the blood but the point is the attempt made.
2. He tried to act as if Stephany was still alive in the room when he left the room to go buy two cups of coffee and bring them back to the room.
2. He pretended to be locked out of his room and had a maid open his door, presumably hoping she would see the body and he could claim it happened while he was gone.
3. He first contemplated taking Stephany out in a suitcase and disposing of her in the water. The only reason he couldn't accomplish it was because he didn't know where to get a suitcase and didn't have time.

1. I haven't read that there was an attempt to clean up, only that after the murder Joran got coffee for 2. He appeared to have cleaned himself up.

2. He attempted to delay the discovery of Stephanie

2 again. He attempted to have Stephanie discovered right there and then (doesn't sound like someone that is thinking clearly ... switching gears like that)

3. I don't believe anything that Joran says unless it can be independently confirmed. There is nothing to support any argument that Joran went shopping for a suitcase, or made any attempts. For example, he didn't ask the front desk staff where he could buy a suitcase.

 

[dgfred]

I think they are assuming that theft was the motive ... so why did he kill her? Couldn't he have found another way to get whatever money he wanted? ... like maybe wait until she was asleep? If theft was going to result in murder (pre-meditated), wouldn't he have realized that Peru is probably one of the dumbest places to be when murdering someone for money?

Hey Otto,
I see the possibility of them dosing off or just resting in the room and then her waking up catching him trying for her money. Maybe she even struck him, he would likely see this as a 'reason' to hit her even tho he was stealing from her. I doubt he really knew much about Peru except for the gambling facilities.

 

[otto]

Hey Otto,
I see the possibility of them dosing off or just resting in the room and then her waking up catching him trying for her money. Maybe she even struck him, he would likely see this as a 'reason' to hit her even tho he was stealing from her. I doubt he really knew much about Peru except for the gambling facilities.

Theft does make sense, so I look forward to seeing evidence of the incoming "mongoloid" message. If that isn't there, then the argument about this reason for the altercation is gone. If a message like that did come in sometime between 6 and 8, then it substantiates Joran's claim about what sparked the altercation.

I haven't looked at the timeline for some time, but I think there were about 2.5 hours between arriving at the hotel and Joran leaving (in a different shirt) for coffee. That doesn't leave much time for online gambling, murder, shower ... and nap.

 

[Nova]

Theft does make sense, so I look forward to seeing evidence of the incoming "mongoloid" message. If that isn't there, then the argument about this reason for the altercation is gone. If a message like that did come in sometime between 6 and 8, then it substantiates Joran's claim about what sparked the altercation.

I haven't looked at the timeline for some time, but I think there were about 2.5 hours between arriving at the hotel and Joran leaving (in a different shirt) for coffee. That doesn't leave much time for online gambling, murder, shower ... and nap.

It's plenty of time without the nap.

Do you believe that JVDS had the bellhop open the hotel room door because he (Joran) was hoping the bellhop would discover the body?

I've never understood what JVDS thought he was doing there. Seems like a big risk to take that the bellhop would NOT step in far enough to see the body. On the other hand, given his history, it seems unlikely that JVDS would expect he could get away with claiming SF was murdered while he went for coffee.

 

[Nova]

I don't think anyone needs to be told that Joran ran without doing anything to clean up the scene - the photos tell that story.

If Joran claims that a message came in (presumably this can be verified) and that sparked the altercation, then it doesn't matter what was on the computer from a day earlier.

I'm sorry, but I don't see any evidence of an attempt to meticulously clean up the crime.

I think you are right and we just get our semantics confused between "clean up" and "cover up." In this case, there was no clean up. But there was an attempt to delay the discovery of the body (i.e., a "cover up") long enough for the killer to flee the jurisdiction. Legally, I suspect it amounts to the same thing, though the "cover up" may not carry an additional "tampering with evidence" charge that would attach to an actual clean up.

 

[otto]

It's plenty of time without the nap.

Do you believe that JVDS had the bellhop open the hotel room door because he (Joran) was hoping the bellhop would discover the body?

I've never understood what JVDS thought he was doing there. Seems like a big risk to take that the bellhop would NOT step in far enough to see the body. On the other hand, given his history, it seems unlikely that JVDS would expect he could get away with claiming SF was murdered while he went for coffee.

The whole business with the coffee cups and pretending to be locked out works if Joran was unaware of the cameras. He had cooked up a story about two officers (something like that) pursuing them on the way to the hotel. I think Joran wanted to stage that Stephanie was attacked by those two men while he was out getting coffee ... he wanted her to be found while he was still at the hotel. I think he was going to suggest that someone was trying to set him up on the anniversary of Natalie's disappearance. All in all, not much of what happened makes sense or falls into the category of an organized mind (or premeditated murder). One minute he's trying to get the concierge to enter the room, then he's taking Stephanie's car to a slum. He may have taken the credit cards in the hope that when the concierge entered the room they would conclude that she was robbed and then forgotten to put them back. John Kelly may view this as a meticulous attempt to cover up the crime, but I see it as a real mess of scenarios that Joran tried to create - changing his mind from one minute to the next.

 

[otto]

I think you are right and we just get our semantics confused between "clean up" and "cover up." In this case, there was no clean up. But there was an attempt to delay the discovery of the body (i.e., a "cover up") long enough for the killer to flee the jurisdiction. Legally, I suspect it amounts to the same thing, though the "cover up" may not carry an additional "tampering with evidence" charge that would attach to an actual clean up.

There was an attempt to cover up his involvement in the crime in the sense that he completely under-estimated investigators and told more lies, but it seems rather disorganized. First he staged being locked out and had the concierge open the door. There would be a very good chance that the concierge walked into the room ... but that didn't happen. Plan B ... move the car. Plan C ... go to the airport. Plan D ... flee to the Chilean border.