GUILTY Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #24

[Nova]

That all makes sense, otto. Thanks. I think the bottom line is JVDS has been unusually lucky over the past five years (and some of that luck may have been the help of others); he isn't a criminal mastermind. It shouldn't surprise me that left to his own devices, he makes a mess of the "cover up."

I mean if you're going to let a bellhop into the room to discovery the body, at least come up with an excuse that will get him all the way into the room!

 

[otto]

That all makes sense, otto. Thanks. I think the bottom line is JVDS has been unusually lucky over the past five years (and some of that luck may have been the help of others); he isn't a criminal mastermind. It shouldn't surprise me that left to his own devices, he makes a mess of the "cover up."

I mean if you're going to let a bellhop into the room to discovery the body, at least come up with an excuse that will get him all the way into the room!

There are a lot of different opinions about this case, just like with the Meredith Kercher case. Some people believe that Joran was driven to murder Stephanie because of being harassed for five years, others believe that he committed two murders - one a perfect vanishing act and the other at the complete opposite end of the spectrum. Since everything that comes out of Joran's mouth is a lie, we can't rely on anything he says.

 

[LadyL]

There are a lot of different opinions about this case, just like with the Meredith Kercher case. Some people believe that Joran was driven to murder Stephanie because of being harassed for five years, others believe that he committed two murders - one a perfect vanishing act and the other at the complete opposite end of the spectrum. Since everything that comes out of Joran's mouth is a lie, we can't rely on anything he says.

[bbm]

I think the fact that he appears (to me at least) to be a bumbling idiot after this murder can be directly attributed to the fact that he had no one to bail him out and help him cover up.

JMO.

 

[dgfred]

The whole business with the coffee cups and pretending to be locked out works if Joran was unaware of the cameras. He had cooked up a story about two officers (something like that) pursuing them on the way to the hotel. I think Joran wanted to stage that Stephanie was attacked by those two men while he was out getting coffee ... he wanted her to be found while he was still at the hotel. I think he was going to suggest that someone was trying to set him up on the anniversary of Natalie's disappearance. All in all, not much of what happened makes sense or falls into the category of an organized mind (or premeditated murder). One minute he's trying to get the concierge to enter the room, then he's taking Stephanie's car to a slum. He may have taken the credit cards in the hope that when the concierge entered the room they would conclude that she was robbed and then forgotten to put them back. John Kelly may view this as a meticulous attempt to cover up the crime, but I see it as a real mess of scenarios that Joran tried to create - changing his mind from one minute to the next.

But otto, when he comes back to the room... he looks directly at the camera and I see a hint of 'shock' in his eyes. Surely he knew what the camera's looked like around there, they are ALL OVER the casinos for sure. I feel like he was expecting the concierge to enter the room enough to at least see her body. Once that didn't work (blaming someone else) panic set in and he fled.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

There are a lot of different opinions about this case, just like with the Meredith Kercher case. Some people believe that Joran was driven to murder Stephanie because of being harassed for five years, others believe that he committed two murders - one a perfect vanishing act and the other at the complete opposite end of the spectrum. Since everything that comes out of Joran's mouth is a lie, we can't rely on anything he says.

I wouldn't call the first murder "a perfect vanishing act" when the trail went straight to his door. What saved him was the notion "no body, no crime" and the reluctance of the authorities in Aruba to move forward with a prosecution. What evidence is there that JVDS was "driven" to murder Stephany because he is suspected by many of another murder? Every piece of evidence that has been made public as well as his own account of Stephany's murder points to premeditation and an attempt to cover up his crime (the coffee cups and staged return to the hotel) and finally to flee when he couldn't cover it up or stage the scene or remove a body. I am willing to believe that his murders begin in rage--stalking a woman who has angered him, raping a woman--but in Stephany's case, at least, he chose to continue his attack when he could have walked away. And it isn't true that we can trust NOTHING liars say. There is usually a grain of truth there, hidden in their justifications and their attempts to blame others (e.g., those who have tried to hold him accountable for a previous crime, Stephany, Beth Holloway Twitty). At the heart of what his says is the truth that he has killed and has no remorse.

 

[Robyn623]

Saw this on HLN today:

FBI agents heading to Lima in search for clues to Natalee Holloway's disappearance

Atlanta, GA – In Session has obtained a court document issued by a Lima court which states "on March 14, 2011 at 2:30 p.m. United States FBI special agents will have access to information and documentation contained in the laptop belonging to inmate Joran Andreas Petrus van der Sloot."

http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2011...for-clues-to-natalee-holloways-disappearance/

Wouldn't it be wonderful if the FBI was able to find something about Natalee after all this time?

 

[Nova]

There are a lot of different opinions about this case, just like with the Meredith Kercher case. Some people believe that Joran was driven to murder Stephanie because of being harassed for five years, others believe that he committed two murders - one a perfect vanishing act and the other at the complete opposite end of the spectrum. Since everything that comes out of Joran's mouth is a lie, we can't rely on anything he says.

I certainly agree with your last statement, otto. Even before the Flores murder, I never understood the parsing of JVDS' every statement, as if some time, somehow one were going to find some truth in one of them.

I certainly don't blame Beth Holloway Twitty for doing everything in her power to find her daughter, but I shook my head sadly at her efforts to get statements from JVDS. Unless he takes her by the hand and leads her to NH's remains, I see no reason to believe anything he says.

As for the opinions of others, if there are some out there who still believe JVDS had nothing to do with NH's death and was somehow hounded to kill by years of suspicion, then I believe I may actually be speechless!

 

[Nova]

...Wouldn't it be wonderful if the FBI was able to find something about Natalee after all this time?

Yes, it would be wonderful for the Holloway family. But I wouldn't hold my breath...

 

[FLNY]

Saw this on HLN today:

FBI agents heading to Lima in search for clues to Natalee Holloway's disappearance

Atlanta, GA – In Session has obtained a court document issued by a Lima court which states "on March 14, 2011 at 2:30 p.m. United States FBI special agents will have access to information and documentation contained in the laptop belonging to inmate Joran Andreas Petrus van der Sloot."

http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2011...for-clues-to-natalee-holloways-disappearance/

Wouldn't it be wonderful if the FBI was able to find something about Natalee after all this time?

Thanks for your report....Fingers crossed on this one!!!

 

[otto]

I wouldn't call the first murder "a perfect vanishing act" when the trail went straight to his door. What saved him was the notion "no body, no crime" and the reluctance of the authorities in Aruba to move forward with a prosecution. What evidence is there that JVDS was "driven" to murder Stephany because he is suspected by many of another murder? Every piece of evidence that has been made public as well as his own account of Stephany's murder points to premeditation and an attempt to cover up his crime (the coffee cups and staged return to the hotel) and finally to flee when he couldn't cover it up or stage the scene or remove a body. I am willing to believe that his murders begin in rage--stalking a woman who has angered him, raping a woman--but in Stephany's case, at least, he chose to continue his attack when he could have walked away. And it isn't true that we can trust NOTHING liars say. There is usually a grain of truth there, hidden in their justifications and their attempts to blame others (e.g., those who have tried to hold him accountable for a previous crime, Stephany, Beth Holloway Twitty). At the heart of what his says is the truth that he has killed and has no remorse.

Natalie completely vanished off the face of the earth. That, to me, is a rather perfect vanishing act. We don't know what happened to her. There has been all sorts of speculation, but that's it. There is no evidence that she was murdered, raped, or anything else.

What I was saying is that some people believe that because Joran was harassed about Natalie's disappearance since the day Natalie disappeared, he changed. The future that he had prior to Natalie's disappearance vanished with her. He was pursued by Natalie's mother, a Dutch journalist and pretend friends that were only looking to set him up. Some people believe this led to Joran spiralling into drinking and gambling, eventually snapping 5 years later. Joran would not have been in Peru if Natalie's mother had not given him money for the trip. I know that there are allegations of extortion, but if one listens carefully to the interviews with Peter, it's clear that Joran contacted Beth for money, and then canceled the deal. He discontinued contact with Beth without money changing hands. It was later that Beth contacted him and offered him $10k for information. He had been offered money for information many times. He always accepted the money and always told a lie. He did this again when Beth offered him $10k. Point being, that he was still being pursued by Beth and Peter years after Natalie disappeared ... and some people believe that led to a kind of mental illness. I'm not saying I believe this, I am saying that it is one opinion about this case.

Joran has not been accused of rape by any women, so that seems to come out of no where - speculation. He did not rape Stephanie. I also don't believe he stalked Stephanie. They met at the casino table, and she obviously invited him into her car and accompanied him to his hotel. They both appeared calm and she followed him ... no force, no stalking.

Every lie has an element of truth, but I do not believe the stories that Joran tells. Amongst his stories are that he did nothing to Natalie, he put her in the ocean, he put her in the bird sanctuary, she fell off a balcony, she was dropped off at the hotel ... so many stories, but nothing that is consistent in the stories - no element of truth that jumps out from the web of lies.

 

[otto]

[bbm]

I think the fact that he appears (to me at least) to be a bumbling idiot after this murder can be directly attributed to the fact that he had no one to bail him out and help him cover up.

JMO.

Sorry, I don't believe the rumors and speculations that a prosecutor and Judge in training couldn't think of a better way to deal with the situation than to hide the body.

 

[otto]

But otto, when he comes back to the room... he looks directly at the camera and I see a hint of 'shock' in his eyes. Surely he knew what the camera's looked like around there, they are ALL OVER the casinos for sure. I feel like he was expecting the concierge to enter the room enough to at least see her body. Once that didn't work (blaming someone else) panic set in and he fled.

Some people believe that he could see the camera (cameras that would have recorded every move he made and everyone that entered the room) and then still proceeded to stage being locked out of the room and tell stories about two imaginery men. I don't think he saw the cameras.

He seems more interested in whether anyone is in the hallway.

Here he is, limp wristed, pretending to knock on the door

 

[LyndyLoo]

Sorry, I don't believe the rumors and speculations that a prosecutor and Judge in training couldn't think of a better way to deal with the situation than to hide the body.

BBM..Are you referring to Joran's father??..Well, It was his statement repeated over and over...NO Body No Crime..So Yes, He did indeed say Hide the body..and so on..and of course subsequent to that..NO ONE found Natalie's Body..and Speculations believe her body was dumped OFF SHORE..and who knows where the currents took her..But as for Joran...he ended up skating..as NO Body was every found..unlike American Law's Circumstantial Evidence does NOT hold water in their law...

I am perplexed somewhat just where you stand on Joran's guilt or innocences..but never mind..as i dont wish to argue on Joran's moralities, nor his years of milking funds from victims ( holloways) or anyone else:banghead:

Suffice to say, Anyone who deals with Joran has NOT prospered..Even his mom feels he has a mental problem :crazy:

 

[otto]

BBM..Are you referring to Joran's father??..Well, It was his statement repeated over and over...NO Body No Crime..So Yes, He did indeed say Hide the body..and so on..and of course subsequent to that..NO ONE found Natalie's Body..and Speculations believe her body was dumped OFF SHORE..and who knows where the currents took her..But as for Joran...he ended up skating..as NO Body was every found..unlike American Law's Circumstantial Evidence does NOT hold water in their law...

I am perplexed somewhat just where you stand on Joran's guilt or innocences..but never mind..as i dont wish to argue on Joran's moralities, nor his years of milking funds from victims ( holloways) or anyone else:banghead:

Suffice to say, Anyone who deals with Joran has NOT prospered..Even his mom feels he has a mental problem :crazy:

Wasn't it the Kalpoes that said Paul said "no body no crime"? Isn't "no body, no crime" a well known phrase?

Beth says in her book that she believes Natalie died by accident during a sexual assault and Joran hid the body. If Natalie had convulsions or died accidentally, it would make an awful lot more sense for Paul to contact authorities and have Joran face charges as a 17 year old ... minimal sentence. Hiding the body is the worst choice in that situation, particularly since Joran and Natalie had only been together a short time, and Natatlie's activities in the days leading up to her disappearance are well documented. In terms of what is the best option in that situation, calling authorities would have been the best option, hiding the body the worst option. Therefore, I do not believe that Paul threw away his career, his life, and Joran's future to hide an accidental death.

Given Stephanie's murder, I look at Natalie's disappearance quite differently from Beth. I suspect that Natalie experienced the same sudden outburst of violent anger as Stephanie. I have never been able to understand how Joran made Natalie disappear, but I'm not going to make up an explanation involving other people without some tiny piece of evidence to make the connection.

Circumstantial evidence does hold water in Roman Law ... have a look at Amanda Knox if you don't believe that circumstantial evidence counts. There was simply no evidence connecting Joran to Natalie's disappearance other than his lies, and a very mixed up story about what Joran and the Kalpoes did that night.

 

[FLNY]

Some people believe that he could see the camera (cameras that would have recorded every move he made and everyone that entered the room) and then still proceeded to stage being locked out of the room and tell stories about two imaginery men. I don't think he saw the cameras.

Conveniently, you left out this picture where he looks directly at the camera!!

http://www.radaronline.com/photos/image/71289/2010/06/exclusive--joran-van-der-sloot#image-load

 

[Nova]

BBM..Are you referring to Joran's father??..Well, It was his statement repeated over and over...NO Body No Crime..So Yes, He did indeed say Hide the body..and so on..and of course subsequent to that..NO ONE found Natalie's Body..and Speculations believe her body was dumped OFF SHORE..and who knows where the currents took her..But as for Joran...he ended up skating..as NO Body was every found..unlike American Law's Circumstantial Evidence does NOT hold water in their law...

I am perplexed somewhat just where you stand on Joran's guilt or innocences..but never mind..as i dont wish to argue on Joran's moralities, nor his years of milking funds from victims ( holloways) or anyone else:banghead:

Suffice to say, Anyone who deals with Joran has NOT prospered..Even his mom feels he has a mental problem :crazy:

Just to second what otto said, Aruban and Dutch law do indeed recognized circumstantial evidence. The problem with the Natalee Holloway case is the almost complete lack of circumstantial evidence.

Our "gut reactions" are not circumstantial evidence. Circumstantial evidence deals with facts inferred indirectly from evidence of a crime. The problem in Aruba has always been the lack of anything to indicate a crime was committed. The exception of course is that NH is missing and few of us believe she would willingly run away; but that isn't evidence, direct or circumstantial, that JVDS (or anyone else) killed her.

 

[otto]

Conveniently, you left out this picture where he looks directly at the camera!!

http://www.radaronline.com/photos/image/71289/2010/06/exclusive--joran-van-der-sloot#image-load

Conveniently? Why do you say that?

I hadn't seen that photo. Is he looking at the camera? I can't see that he suddenly realizes that he's looking at a camera ... but maybe he does realize he's looking at a camera, and maybe he does realize that everything that has happened in the hallway has been recorded, and then maybe he does stage being locked out of the room knowing that it is all caught on film. That does not strike me as an organized mind ... that makes no sense to me.

 

[Nova]

Natalie completely vanished off the face of the earth. That, to me, is a rather perfect vanishing act. We don't know what happened to her. There has been all sorts of speculation, but that's it. There is no evidence that she was murdered, raped, or anything else.

What I was saying is that some people believe that because Joran was harassed about Natalie's disappearance since the day Natalie disappeared, he changed. The future that he had prior to Natalie's disappearance vanished with her. He was pursued by Natalie's mother, a Dutch journalist and pretend friends that were only looking to set him up. Some people believe this led to Joran spiralling into drinking and gambling, eventually snapping 5 years later. Joran would not have been in Peru if Natalie's mother had not given him money for the trip. I know that there are allegations of extortion, but if one listens carefully to the interviews with Peter, it's clear that Joran contacted Beth for money, and then canceled the deal. He discontinued contact with Beth without money changing hands. It was later that Beth contacted him and offered him $10k for information. He had been offered money for information many times. He always accepted the money and always told a lie. He did this again when Beth offered him $10k. Point being, that he was still being pursued by Beth and Peter years after Natalie disappeared ... and some people believe that led to a kind of mental illness. I'm not saying I believe this, I am saying that it is one opinion about this case.

Joran has not been accused of rape by any women, so that seems to come out of no where - speculation. He did not rape Stephanie. I also don't believe he stalked Stephanie. They met at the casino table, and she obviously invited him into her car and accompanied him to his hotel. They both appeared calm and she followed him ... no force, no stalking.

Every lie has an element of truth, but I do not believe the stories that Joran tells. Amongst his stories are that he did nothing to Natalie, he put her in the ocean, he put her in the bird sanctuary, she fell off a balcony, she was dropped off at the hotel ... so many stories, but nothing that is consistent in the stories - no element of truth that jumps out from the web of lies.

Otto I know you are reporting what others have said, so this isn't a quarrel between you and me.

But I do want to add that JVDS MET BH while he was engaging in illegal, underage drinking and gambling, so I don't buy the theory that he was a choir boy unfairly hounded into psychopathology by the mean old unrelenting Twittys! (Frankly, I think if JVDS had shown an ounce of concern for a missing girl, he and the Twittys might not have been at odds in the first place.)

I get the impression from things NH's parent have said that they believe she had a bad reaction to the date-rape drug and her wrongful death was covered up to protect the son of a prominent Aruban.

But I am intrigued by your point that we now may have two instances where JVDS lashed out lethally and without much provocation. Perhaps there is something in his make-up we don't really understand yet. (FTR, I don't think it can all be blamed on media pressure.)

 

[suzihawk]

Wasn't it the Kalpoes that said Paul said "no body no crime"? Isn't "no body, no crime" a well known phrase?

Beth says in her book that she believes Natalie died by accident during a sexual assault and Joran hid the body. If Natalie had convulsions or died accidentally, it would make an awful lot more sense for Paul to contact authorities and have Joran face charges as a 17 year old ... minimal sentence. Hiding the body is the worst choice in that situation, particularly since Joran and Natalie had only been together a short time, and Natatlie's activities in the days leading up to her disappearance are well documented. In terms of what is the best option in that situation, calling authorities would have been the best option, hiding the body the worst option. Therefore, I do not believe that Paul threw away his career, his life, and Joran's future to hide an accidental death.

Given Stephanie's murder, I look at Natalie's disappearance quite differently from Beth. I suspect that Natalie experienced the same sudden outburst of violent anger as Stephanie. I have never been able to understand how Joran made Natalie disappear, but I'm not going to make up an explanation involving other people without some tiny piece of evidence to make the connection.

Circumstantial evidence does hold water in Roman Law ... have a look at Amanda Knox if you don't believe that circumstantial evidence counts. There was simply no evidence connecting Joran to Natalie's disappearance other than his lies, and a very mixed up story about what Joran and the Kalpoes did that night.

One does not always make wise decisions when attempting to protect their offspring. One only has to look at the Anthony family as an example - since we're citing cases here.

I believe the elder VanderSloots thought the 'incident' with Natalee was just another teenage squirmish in a long line of incidents their son got himself involved in and that it would all be brushed aside and forgotten about given time (and given PVS's in standing in the legal community). They severely miscalculated Beth Holloway's tenacity.

Yes... calling the authorities would have been their best option. But they chose not to do that. Instead they adopted the 'no body - no crime' stance and by the time they figured out this little problem was NOT going to just go away, it was too late to do the right thing. To admit anything other at this point would be an admission of thier own cover up attempts. "In for a penney, in for a pound", as the old saying goes.

I have no problem believing that they did, indeed, risk everything to protect their son.

 

[suzihawk]

Conveniently? Why do you say that?

I hadn't seen that photo. Is he looking at the camera? I can't see that he suddenly realizes that he's looking at a camera ... but maybe he does realize he's looking at a camera, and maybe he does realize that everything that has happened in the hallway has been recorded, and then maybe he does stage being locked out of the room knowing that it is all caught on film. That does not strike me as an organized mind ... that makes no sense to me.

I've seen both the photo and the video where he looks up and obviously sees the camera. He has a distinct, "oh crap!" look on his face at that precise moment. (Sorry, I don't have time to run down the video right now.)

No one is claiming he has an organized mind - at least, I don't.