GUILTY PLEA DEAL ACCEPTED - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #111

[Arkay]

Sorry to be blunt.

But if someone misses red flags in one's own field of career,
then.... ummm....
whatever book on this particular subject/perp would not interest me at all.

Only MY Opinion

I felt this way initially, but now have mixed emotions.

To my mind, if her superpower was discerning what defines a budding murderer, and she had no inkling that he bore some of those traits, then her expertise failed her.

However, another poster responded to my earlier post about that by reminding me that this was a Zoom class. IMO that changes the picture.

I haven’t taught college students, as do @10ofRods and @pittsburghgirl, but I did teach 8th graders for 25 years. I retired shortly before Covid hit, so I never had to deal with Zoom lessons.

Unlike college with adult students who chose to further their education, keeping 8th graders involved definitely required my physical presence to maintain order. Also unlike college, we have our students straight through September to the end of June.

Realizing belatedly that Dr. R only knew him through Zoom, and for one or maybe two semesters (?), now I can fathom how she wouldn’t have picked up on certain behavioral characteristics that personal interaction would have provided.

I still am not too enthused about anyone turning a profit from tragedy, but I realize I’m a hypocrite. I definitely enjoyed Ann Rule’s book on working beside Ted Bundy. I mitigate this somewhat by recalling that Ann was a true-crime writer, not a trained specialist on sussing out the hallmarks of a nascent murderer.

JMO

 

[mickey2942]

I felt this way initially, but now have mixed emotions.

To my mind, if her superpower was discerning what defines a budding murderer, and she had no inkling that he bore some of those traits, then her expertise failed her.

However, another poster responded to my post about that by reminding me that this was a Zoom class. IMO that changes the picture.

I haven’t taught college students, as do @10ofRods and @pittsburghgirl, but I did teach 8th graders for 25 years. I retired shortly before Covid hit, so I never had to deal with Zoom lessons.

Unlike college with adult students who chose to further their education, keeping 8th graders involved definitely required my physical presence to maintain order. Also unlike college, we have our students straight through September to the end of June.

Realizing belatedly that Dr. R only knew him through Zoom, and for one or maybe two semesters (?), now I can fathom how she wouldn’t pick up on certain behavioral characteristics that personal interaction would have provided.

I still am not too enthused about anyone turning a profit from tragedy, but I realize I’m a hypocrite. I definitely enjoyed Ann Rule’s book on working beside Ted Bundy. I mitigate this somewhat by recalling that Ann was a true-crime writer, not a trained specialist on sussing out the hallmarks of a nascent murderer.

JMO

No one "knows" what is going on inside of the head of another person. BK could have hit every single marker on being a psychopath killer, but until there was a concrete reason to suspect he was actually a danger to others, law enforcement can't arrest someone because they are creepy or weird.

I had my own experience with a killer. I had no clue he was a danger to people in the community, until he randomly killed a young girl. It was more of a "crime of opportunity" rather than a planned massacre. He was just a "face" in a crowd of classes I was teaching.

 

[PunishThenForgive]

Sorry to be blunt.

But if someone misses red flags in one's own field of career,
then.... ummm....
whatever book on this particular subject/perp would not interest me at all.

Only MY Opinion

Katherine Ramsland’s PhD is in philosophy, not criminal justice, though she has an impressive collection of lower degrees:


Source

I think of Ramsland as primarily a teacher and a writer—a popularizer—of a field she became intrigued by fairly late in her career—the forensic psychology of serious offenders like serial and mass murderers (she earned her MA in forensic psychology 16 years after completing her PhD).

She’s even written books about the supernatural—vampires, witches, ghosts, anything that delve into human and human-adjacent darkness.

I wouldn’t expect Ramsland, a gifted teacher, to look out for psychological pathology in her own students. Of course she looked out for such pathology in her research subjects like Dennis Rader (BTK). One could argue, though, that she should have look out for red flags in her students since she was aware that some might take her courses to learn to be a better criminal.

The cops in my extended family, unlike Katherine Ramsland, are pragmatic, non-intellectual (though intelligent), and very suspicious of everyone. They would not last long in their careers without this cynical outlook—it keeps them alive.

I expect that a criminal justice prof who had a prior or concurrent career in law enforcement would easily see red flags in BK’s behavior. But Katherine Ramsland saw none. Remember that BK wanted something from Ramsland, so he manipulated her, just as he did his other female criminal justice professor at DeSales, Dr. Michelle Bolger.

IMO, Katherine Ramsland is intrigued by BK because she was duped by him. I fully expect her own desire to figure out how he did this will force her to write about him, regardless of any wish she may harbor for a perhaps final hurrah in her own publishing career.

And don’t forget that at least one female cop was seemingly duped by BK. He acted in a polite and curious (though to many, annoying) manner toward the officer who pulled him over for moving into the intersection while attempting to make an unprotected left turn. Of course, we know BK was lying through his teeth about the non-existence of crosswalks back home in Albrightsville, but the officer didn’t seem alarmed by his behavior or demeanor and did not ticket him. I expect she became far much more suspicious of polite young men after BK was arrested.

Both Katherine Ramsland and Michelle Bolger were fooled by BK, but that’s because they saw him as a student, not a perp they were studying. Don’t mistake for one minute what Ramsland will be fooled again by BK now that she knows what he has done.

Unlike cynical, street-weary cops, most of us take people at face value. The women who were afraid of BK or noticed he was “off” are the women he wanted to frighten or intimidate. BK knew how to weasel into the affection or regard of the women who could help him, but now they know his number, just like the rest of us.

IMO

 

[pittsburghgirl]

I am curious about this. Has there ever been a book written or a crime series from the perspective of a criminal psychologist unknowingly actively involved with a serial killer before and after the murders? She has a unique perspective in that she was his instructor prior to the murders and could very well be the one he reaches out to now that he's caught, pled guilty and going to serve time. This could be the crown jewel of her career, sad to say but it's all there for it to happen. I suspect she has something in the works. All JMO

Jonathan Kellerman is an American author of crime thrillers (the Alex Delaware books) and a psychologist. A good while ago, he published a book called Savage Spawn: Reflections on Violent Children, which looked at the question of whether children who killed, including school shooters, were a result of nature or nurture. He doesn't focus on one case but includes a number of interesting case studies. He was writing as a practitioner, not "unknowingly involved with a serial killer."

 

[Kudzuu]

Of course. But who in Idaho would pardon him? Federal pardons apply only to federal crimes. I can't imagine a Governor of Idaho taking that kind of risk!

And why? Why would anyone do it?

I thought governors were over state pardons.

Only a crazy person would pardon him.

 

[Tragg]

Dr. Ramsland does not claim an expertise in identifying serial killers: her contribution has been to illustrate that it is not possible to do so:

"Years before she started studying serial killers, Ramsland wrote her Ph.D. dissertation on Soren Kierkegaard, the 'father' of existentialism. She sees Kierkegaard as informing her most controversial idea in Confession — that some serial killers are more like the rest of us than common wisdom tells us. In the annals of serial killers, Rader is hardly the only one who held down a facade of normalcy while hunting his prey, but he managed it far longer than many others. There are many qualities, Ramsland writes, that ordinary people share with so-called monsters: 'overestimating our willpower, idealizing ourselves, daydreaming about power, indulging in secret behaviors that keep attracting us, deceiving others and keeping secrets.' She believes that all of us should lock our doors at night."

...

"But Ramsland thinks we’re kidding ourselves if we think we can tell the Raders from the civilians just by looking. Rader’s outward life was one of normalcy: He served in the Air Force, attended community college, married and had children. He held a variety of jobs — in a supermarket, a factory, for ADT Security Services and the city. He attended Christ Lutheran Church, where he became president of the church council. He was a Cub Scout leader.

I had watched Rader’s confession on YouTube, and I liked to think that I would have known he was a psychopath if I met him. He talked about himself in the third person, answering the judge’s questions with phrases like 'If you know anything about serial killers. …' As he used the phrase 'put him down' to describe killing Joseph Otero, he appeared to be shrugging and twitching; I wondered if he spoke that way ordinarily, and if so, what his wife and children made of it.

When I mentioned my thoughts to Ramsland, though, she disagreed that people who knew Rader could have connected the dots. Why would they? To the contrary, one reason Ramsland believes that Rader was able to keep his cover was that 'he grew up in a Germanic Midwestern family where there was not a lot of emotion. Like my family.'

The Serial Killer's Co-Author

 

[maskedwoman]

According to AI, no. But, just because it's not mentioned on Ada Cnty's website, doesn't mean they don't have it. If not, did AT bring it to him to use? Cuz he for dang sure did something to those Brybrows IMO!

Link to AI's source in the quote.

No, the Ada County Jail in Idaho does not offer salon services like haircuts or styling for inmates. The jail provides basic necessities and health services, but salon services are not included, according to the Ada County Sheriff's Office.

But but what I found interesting is the mention of PREA. I was like... what's a PREA?

Prison Rape Elimination Act

Never heard of it. That page can be found in the link above as well.

I remember when Zach Adams was tried for murdering Holly Bobo, his attorney had put makeup on his to conceal the gosh awful circles under his eyes. I remember other cases where skuzzy criminals got quick makeovers from their attorneys before trial.

 

[Sundog]

What would privacy policies restrict her from discussing? His grades? Seems like she would be free to discuss most everything but I'm no expert. She also stands to make a boatload of money on this book - more so than any previous. Might be hard to resist.

I think she would likely make 25% of any profits on the book, with the remainder going to the families of the victims, IF they would sign off on this kind of deal, which may not be the case.

 

[RatFace]

I think she would likely make 25% of any profits on the book, with the remainder going to the families of the victims, IF they would sign off on this kind of deal, which may not be the case.

Is this some sort of law they have in Idaho? It doesn't make sense to me that she needs permission to write a book about this and that she would have to split profits. Wouldn't she have freedom of speech to write about whatever she wants? She may want their permission (and help) though.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

And yet California let Leslie Van Houten out. Hopefully, Idaho is not as lenient.

This was a direct result of the death penalty sentence being changed to life with possibility of parole after 7 years when the death penalty was ended in California.

It was not a pardon. She was given parole at age 70, after 50 years in prison and over 20 denials of parole or governors' rulings that she could not be released when a parole board recommended her. Both Sharon Tate's sister and the LaBiancas' daughter opposed the parole. Tate's sister has appeared at every parole hearing for every member who comes up for parole. There are still 4 Manson family murderers in prison and coming up for parole. Those 4 have been up for parole at least 54 time, so with Van Houten, we're talking that victims' families have appeared at over 75 hearings since the trials were over, and nearly 90 if you add Charlie's 12 hearings. 56 years of trying to keep Manson and his killers in prison.

This is why no appeals is so important. There is no death penalty to overturn. No last minute reprieves from some governor, not a chance of a parole hearing.

 

[gremlin444]

Sorry to be blunt.

But if someone misses red flags in one's own field of career,
then.... ummm....
whatever book on this particular subject/perp would not interest me at all.

Only MY Opinion

fwiw:

Serial killer expert reveals how Bryan Kohberger "completely" fooled her

Katherine Ramsland, who taught Kohberger at DeSales University, spoke out after it emerged he had agreed to a plea deal in the murders of four Idaho students.

www.newsweek.com

Asked about Kohberger having her "fooled," Ramsland also said: "Well, I study the ones who are really good at it because I want to really try to understand what can we see in the constellation of behaviors that will tip us off easier because people who are really good at passing as normal and keeping their dark side hidden can fool people, can fool all the experts, for a long period of time. I think anybody in my field will tell you they can be duped by a really skilful predatory type of person."

 

[maskedwoman]

And don’t forget that at least one female cop was seemingly duped by BK. He acted in a polite and curious (though to many, annoying) manner toward the officer who pulled him over for moving into the intersection while attempting to make an unprotected left turn. Of course, we know BK was lying through his teeth about the non-existence of crosswalks back home in Albrightsville, but the officer didn’t seem alarmed by his behavior or demeanor and did not ticket him. I expect she became far much more suspicious of polite young men after BK was arrested.

I'm not sure that's a fair assessment. She just pulled him over and then professionally dealt with his bloviating about things being different where he's from. He sounded arrogant and came across as yet another driver who thought he was special enough not to get a ticket. I definitely might forgotten, but I don't remember the conversation including any topics that might suggest that she was somehow taken in by him. Anyone please feel free to correct me on that.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

I thought governors were over state pardons.

Only a crazy person would pardon him.

Governors are the ones who can pardon people. They can also block paroles and can commute a death sentence. That doesn't mean they will or they should.

 

[Sundog]

Is this some sort of law they have in Idaho? It doesn't make sense to me that she needs permission to write a book about this and that she would have to split profits. Wouldn't she have freedom of speech to write about whatever she wants? She may want their permission (and help) though.

I don't know about any related laws in Idaho, I just posted that this is the arrangement she made with the families when she wrote the BTK book, and speculating on how she might want to structure a BK book.

 

[DizzyB]

And yet California let Leslie Van Houten out. Hopefully, Idaho is not as lenient.

After all of these years, I still am amazed that Manson was not even present for the Tate murders.

 

[FoxxTraxx]

Speaking of books I see popular author James Patterson has a book coming out on the Idaho case next week! And there are already innumerable Podcasts about these murders. I would be quite surprised if Dr Ramsland didn't publish a book of her own.

 

[PunishThenForgive]

What would privacy policies restrict her from discussing? His grades? Seems like she would be free to discuss most everything but I'm no expert. She also stands to make a boatload of money on this book - more so than any previous. Might be hard to resist.

Adult students are protected by FERPA laws, which keep their education records private. Ramsland could lose her job at DeSales if she violates them.

The only way Ramsland (or Bolger) can reveal protected information about Kohberger is if they are compelled to do so by subpoena or judicial order, or if he gives them permission to do so.

ETA the part about a student also being able to give consent for release of private info. Thanks for the reminder, @Vaderman!

 

[Vaderman]

fwiw:

Serial killer expert reveals how Bryan Kohberger "completely" fooled her

Katherine Ramsland, who taught Kohberger at DeSales University, spoke out after it emerged he had agreed to a plea deal in the murders of four Idaho students.

www.newsweek.com

Asked about Kohberger having her "fooled," Ramsland also said: "Well, I study the ones who are really good at it because I want to really try to understand what can we see in the constellation of behaviors that will tip us off easier because people who are really good at passing as normal and keeping their dark side hidden can fool people, can fool all the experts, for a long period of time. I think anybody in my field will tell you they can be duped by a really skilful predatory type of person."

I work for a college in an office that is heavily focused on FERPA (student privacy rights). Based on my experience, I'm suspicious on how freely she's discussing his time as a student. It makes me seriously think she obtained a signed consent form to release his information and discuss his information.

 

[Chloegirl]

So, if he has admitted guilt. And this was perhaps an escalation in his life. I believe he has killed before. You do not often start with four. Friends dying, maybe even in his presence of overdoses would either be triggers or involvements. JMOO

I have a close family friend who attends deaths as part of her work. I think people become fascinated by death once exposed to it. It can become another obsession (she is very passionate). Just a thought.

 

[PunishThenForgive]

I work for a college in an office that is heavily focused on FERPA (student privacy rights). Based on my experience, I'm suspicious on how freely she's discussing his time as a student. It makes me seriously think she obtained a signed consent form to release his information and discuss his information.

If Ramsland plans to write an entire book on BK, she’ll have to get his consent to write anything about his education records, but she’ll likely have to interview him (and others who know him), as well. As others have said, her relationship with BK was formal, not like the intimate friendship Ann Rule had with Ted Bundy.

IMO

Sources:

FERPA
NewsNation interview