Pontiac: The odor, sealing off & processing the car #2

[RR0004]

BBM

I don't know where the 1:30 info came from, but Yuri says at the bond hearing he arrived 3:30 - 3:45.

Bond hearing - Part 3 - Cross by Baez:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeLdTCOF2lM

Yuri testifies that he arrived at the home "about 3:30, 3:45 in the morning"

Addtl info: Yuri was the first detective at the house


Also noting regarding who told Yuri about the smell and when:

Part 1 - Drane-Burdick

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuuTH7GxFyk&feature=related

- 3:30 Drane-Burdick asks why the car was taken to the forensics bay.

Melich: "There was a talk that there was a very bad smell inside the car"

- 3:36 After questioning KC, taking her around to Sawgrass, old folks home, Universal, the interview at Universal, etc. (this took several hours), he remembered that "somebody had mentioned there was a very bad odor in the car".

- 4:15 I've seen it noted that Yuri got into the car and smelled the smell. I wanted to know where he did this (home or forensics bay). Here he testifies that he did it at the forensics bay.

- 5:04 "Initially we were told that there was a bag of trash in the car when Mr. Anthony picked it up. The first thing we wanted to do was recover this bag of trash to determine whether or not that could have caused the odor."

For consideration FWIW: This seems to indicate that, when initially told about the smell, Yuri *may have been* led to believe the smell was from trash. I know. Circumstantial. Further supporting circumstantial evidence would be George's claims that earlier in the day Cindy said something like 'it's the pizza, right, George?', and that he attempted to reassure her by saying yes, the smell was the nonexistent pizza. And of course, we all know about all of Cindy's vehement claims that the smell was the nonexistent pizza.

Guilty...1:30 info came from me...in one of his reports he wrote he was notified about the disappearance and responded to the scene. I guess it took him a long time to respond. I was figuring in driving time...etc. But, I also could have sworn I read somewhere that he was on the scene earlier. If he says that was the time...fine by me. Not worth any more searching this evening.

 

[RR0004]

Since Tony did not smell anything odd on the 23rd, and George did not see or smell anything odd when he was several feet away and KC handed him the gas cans on the 24th, then does that mean KC placed a deceased Caylee in the trunk after giving George the gas cans back, and removed her just prior to running the car out of gas and leaving it at Amscot? This would allow for a couple days for the decomposing body to intensify the odor in the trunk. If this timeline has been debunked, I apologize.
Now, if Caylee’s remains were in the trunk and removed prior to when Tony was near the trunk on the 23rd, and already disposed of I have a very troubling question. Is it reasonably possible, that the trace evidence used in the air sample (which to my knowledge is the only human decomp like substance found in the interior of the trunk), and the small amount of adipocere like substance found on the napkins in the white trash bag combined to emit a smell of death that intensified so greatly from after the 24th of June when George was near the open trunk, to the unmistakable smell of death that could be noticed while several feet away from the vehicle while the trunk, doors and windows were all closed, on July 15th? Or is it reasonably possible that CA & GA found and used some miraculous cleanser that removed the amount of decomp necessary to cause this horrendous smell of death, while leaving behind all the normal gasoline, oil, and other type things one would normally find in a trunk? Or is it reasonably possible that the maggot infested garbage in the white trash bag produced a god awful smell after sitting in the enclosed trunk for a couple weeks under the Florida sun, that was so terrible it smelled like something died in there?
If actions speak louder than words, then the fact that the Pontiac was not taken in for processing until nearly 22 hours after Cindy’s 911 call saying ‘it smells like a dead body was in the damn trunk” could lead one to believe that the police may have thought the smell was indeed the smell of rotting garbage. If the smell of death is so unforgettable, and the trunk smelled of death, why did the police not immediately deem that trunk a crime scene and seal it off the moment the first officer smelled the unmistakable smell of death?
LE eventually impounded the vehicle, and processed the trunk. They also retrieved the white trash bag that had been sitting in a dumpster for nearly 30 hours. The important things they found was one hair that had a dark root. From a cut out sample of carpet they found an odor signature that had several components not unlike the components of human decomposition. In the white trash bag they found one leg of a species of fly known as Diptera.
Upon further examination LE released an entomology report that was based almost entirely on the insects found within the white trash bag that sat in a dumpster for 30 hours and had the potential to become contaminated during that time by other insects that were likely inside the dumpster. This report says it is possible that Caylee’s remains were at one time in the trunk. The single hair with the dark root could not be determined that it had indeed come from a decomposing body. The air sample from the trunk contained some but not all components you would normally find in a decomposing body, and has not yet been used in a court of law. The unmistakable smell of death must have been caused by the trace of human decomp like substance found on the piece of carpet and the adipocerelike substance on the napkins because once Caylee’s remains had been removed that could not be the cause of the increase in the intensity of the odor. Le did not impound the vehicle for 13 to 22 hours after they had become aware that the trunk smelled like something died in there.
I am certain I have not presented everything available from the processing of the trunk, and it is likely that LE has more evidence we have not seen yet. However, from the things I have mentioned in the paragraphs above I pose the following question,
Would any of the above cause a juror to have reasonable doubt that Caylee’s remains were in the trunk? As always all of the above is moo.

Don't forget they brought the dogs and they alerted to the trunk.

 

[JBean]

I understand the concern for the lapse in time that the vehicle was sealed and taken to the forensics bay. It was many hours. I too am curious as to why one of the initial officers, if they in fact entered the car, did not mention the smell to Yuri. Hopefully, these officers will be called at trial and we can get some clarification. I'm going to speculate a little bit here (give them the benefit of the doubt) and say that if these officers had not been exposed to that smell...no exposure to decomposing bodies in the past...they might not have known what it was and in the absence of a body, you would know the smell is very bad but without that frame of reference, would not make that leap.

Also, initially the call was for a missing child. Casey told everyone that Caylee was taken by the nanny, wrote it in a statement even. George states that the smell is from the trash they found in the car.

The focus was on finding the child, who they thought was abducted, from another location. To their knowledge there is no homicide, the child was not taken from the car, the car was not an integral part of the investigation at that time. I can see how this could've been overlooked at the time. It doesn't negate the evidence that was later found...but I will say that there might have been more evidence preserved had it been done more quickly.

Just to clarify, the responding officers didn't even need to tell YM about the smell because George himself told YM when he got there. not only did he tell him upon his arrival but he confided in YM that he was afraid something bad had happened to Caylee. He was still talking about that smell and his fear for Caylee 3 weeks later in his interview.
If LE dismissed this smell because they were only looking for a missing child, I am not even sure how to interpret that.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

Don't forget they brought the dogs and they alerted to the trunk.

Yes, the dog alerted to the rear driver side fender, which is where KC in one of her stories said she peeled a dead squirrel off of. Didn't cadaver dogs alert twice in the Anthony back yard, but nothing was found?

 

[MaraSleuth]

With regards to smell in the car - thought I'd share a story. This summer our garbage people went on strike and we were hauling our own garbage bags to the dump. I drove 3 bags of garbage to the dump (20 minutes drive). After, I noticed one of the bags leaked God knows what. The stench was unbelievable (I kept thinking back to this case). Nothing could get rid of the smell. I had to pull out the trunk liner and scrub it and it still stunk for weeks. This is after 20 minutes of garbage in the trunk.

 

[Harmony 2]

Yes, the dog alerted to the rear driver side fender, which is where KC in one of her stories said she peeled a dead squirrel off of. Didn't cadaver dogs alert twice in the Anthony back yard, but nothing was found?

No she said "two dead squirrels crawled" into her engine (something to that effect). I guess they were the ghosts of dead squirrels, which may explain why when the vehicle was raised and the chassis and engine were inspected there were no carcasses for dead squirrels found ANYWHERE in/on that vehicle. NONE!

DA- Question: Caylee was missing since June 16th and no one saw her after that, where do you think she was?

 

[RR0004]

Yes, the dog alerted to the rear driver side fender, which is where KC in one of her stories said she peeled a dead squirrel off of. Didn't cadaver dogs alert twice in the Anthony back yard, but nothing was found?

First...call me old...but I thought it was the rear, right side...and the squirrels (yes, more than one) died and crawled under the hood. (LOL)

 

[RR0004]

With regards to smell in the car - thought I'd share a story. This summer our garbage people went on strike and we were hauling our own garbage bags to the dump. I drove 3 bags of garbage to the dump (20 minutes drive). After, I noticed one of the bags leaked God knows what. The stench was unbelievable (I kept thinking back to this case). Nothing could get rid of the smell. I had to pull out the trunk liner and scrub it and it still stunk for weeks. This is after 20 minutes of garbage in the trunk.

Maybe slightly OT...but I had some sort of water leak in my car...it was filling up the undercarriage...and ended up wetting the carpets...which is what alerted me in the first place that something was wrong. The car stunk something awful by the time I brought it in. The guy at the dealership had to drill a hole from underneath to let all the water out. I was told he physically got ill. (I guess I had a stronger stomach.) The point is...after smelling that g-d awful smell, I can still say it smelt significantly different...and less remarkable than that of a dead body. JMO

 

[Phumi]

So on the one hand, we have the defense saying that LE made a rush to judgement and immediately wanted to pin a murder on KC, but on the other hand, LE will be criticized for not taking the car immediately and processing it as a crime scene. Seems to me that they initially tried to work with the information KC gave them. KC's version did not involve her car. Once they realized her story was a complete fabrication, they started to look elsewhere. I glad I don't work for LE. It's a thankless job.

 

[JBean]

So on the one hand, we have the defense saying that LE made a rush to judgement and immediately wanted to pin a murder on KC, but on the other hand, LE will be criticized for not taking the car immediately and processing it as a crime scene. Seems to me that they initially tried to work with the information KC gave them. KC's version did not involve her car. Once they realized her story was a complete fabrication, they started to look elsewhere. I glad I don't work for LE. It's a thankless job.

Not necessarily,imo. Remember, the car was out of KC's control so for all they knew they could have searched for evidence in the car that would exonerate her. Processing the car wasn't so much about finding out if KC murdered her child as much as it was finding out if there was a murder.
I don't think the car evidence was necssarily about KC as much as it was about caylee and what became of her. KWIM? The only reason they are being criticized is because valuable evidence could have been compromised more than it may have been already.
The problem I have with the whole situation is that there was a very strong odor that was, according to just about everyone, that of human decomp. How can you not prioritize that in a missing persons case?

 

[Phumi]

Not necessarily,imo. Remember, the car was out of KC's control so for all they knew they could have searched for evidence in the car that would exonerate her. Processing the car wasn't so much about finding out if KC murdered her child as much as it was finding out if there was a murder.
I don't think the car evidence was necssarily about KC as much as it was about caylee and what became of her. KWIM? The only reason they are being criticized is because valuable evidence could have been compromised more than it may have been already.
The problem I have with the whole situation is that there was a very strong odor that was, according to just about everyone, that of human decomp. How can you not prioritize that in a missing persons case?

I didn't really mean the folks here criticizing them. I was thinking more that the defense will say this as a way to show how "inept" the whole investigation was. It just seems to me that initially, if LE is told a child is missing and the mom says "I got a call from her yesterday," they would proceed as if that is the truth until they have evidence to the contrary. I'm sure Cindy was talking about rotting pizza even as George was saying he thought something was wrong. I also wish LE had taken the car immediately, but I think it was already too late and we wouldn't be any farther ahead with the evidence.

 

[JBean]

I didn't really mean the folks here criticizing them. I was thinking more that the defense will say this as a way to show how "inept" the whole investigation was. It just seems to me that initially, if LE is told a child is missing and the mom says "I got a call from her yesterday," they would proceed as if that is the truth until they have evidence to the contrary. I'm sure Cindy was talking about rotting pizza even as George was saying he thought something was wrong. I also wish LE had taken the car immediately, but I think it was already too late and we wouldn't be any farther ahead with the evidence.

Oh I understand you weren't directing that at posting membership Phumi.

But, imo decomp smell IS evidence to the contrary. Cindy and George both reported more than once that they thought the smell was of a dead body. LE is trained to be observant and take everything in which is why I am flummoxed about this issue.

if you are following the Jaycee story, you have probably heard the case of Calloway-Hall, the lady that was raped by Garrido and ultimately why he was incarcerated for 11 years.
In her story, she is being raped in a storage facility and when a cop comes to the door to find out if garrido is actually the tenant of the warehouse, she bolts out naked and says she is being raped. The policeman does not believe her at first. The officer is sizing up the situation and considering all alternativesas to what could really be going on.
What I am saying is that faced with odd circumstances LE is trained to size it up pretty quick and rule things in or out. While this officer made the wrong assumption right off, he corrected himself when he saw the red marks on her wrists as evidence of being handcuffed which equals being held against her will.

Bringing it back aound to this case, we have a mom that still hasn't reported her daughter missing, we have a car that smells like a decomposing body and the car has been reported as being stolen by the daughter and the report is coming from the grandmother! Now that is an unsual set of circumstances.
It just stands to reason,imo, that the smell, if as bad as reported should have sent off a loud alarm. But, in the bond hearing YM said after exhausting KC's stories, he remembered someone said something about an odor in the car and thought he should check it out.
I just will always find that very odd that my percpetion is that it was an afterthought. I qualified that as my perception because i have no idea if that is what is was or not.

My point is, I think it is tha nature of LE to look at the big picture, look at more than is offered and not necessarily take everything at face value.

 

[Phumi]

Oh I understand you weren't directing that at posting membership Phumi.

But, imo decomp smell IS evidence to the contrary. Cindy and George both reported more than once that they thought the smell was of a dead body. LE is trained to be observant and take everything in which is why I am flummoxed about this issue.

if you are following the Jaycee story, you have probably heard the case of Calloway-Hall, the lady that was raped by Garrido and ultimately why he was incarcerated for 11 years.
In her story, she is being raped in a storage facility and when a cop comes to the door to find out if garrido is actually the tenant of the warehouse, she bolts out naked and says she is being raped. The policeman does not believe her at first. The officer is sizing up the situation and considering all alternativesas to what could really be going on.
What I am saying is that faced with odd circumstances LE is trained to size it up pretty quick and rule things in or out. While this officer made the wrong assumption right off, he corrected himself when he saw the red marks on her wrists as evidence of being handcuffed which equals being held against her will.

Bringing it back aound to this case, we have a mom that still hasn't reported her daughter missing, we have a car that smells like a decomposing body and the car has been reported as being stolen by the daughter and the report is coming from the grandmother! Now that is an unsual set of circumstances.
It just stands to reason,imo, that the smell, if as bad as reported should have sent off a loud alarm. But, in the bond hearing YM said after exhausting KC's stories, he remembered someone said something about an odor in the car and thought he should check it out.
I just will always find that very odd that my percpetion is that it was an afterthought. I qualified that as my perception because i have no idea if that is what is was or not.

My point is, I think it is tha nature of LE to look at the big picture, look at more than is offered and not necessarily take everything at face value.

I'm not clear about what YM knew when he arrived at the house. There were 3 911 calls. I think the calls about the stolen vehicle involving a mother and daughter would have been assigned to a uniformed officer and not a detective. When the 3rd call comes about a kidnapped toddler, YM is assigned. So, when YM gets to the Anthony's, does he even know about the first 2 calls? And if he does, has Cindy already gone into her "I only said the car was stolen to get somebody out here" routine? I understand police are trained to see beyond the surface, but they are not super-human. It must have been sheer chaos on Hopesprings drive that evening. I do see your point, JBean. I just feel like YM had to prioritize on the spot and following KC's information first was the natural path.

 

[BeanE]

I'm not clear about what YM knew when he arrived at the house. There were 3 911 calls. I think the calls about the stolen vehicle involving a mother and daughter would have been assigned to a uniformed officer and not a detective. When the 3rd call comes about a kidnapped toddler, YM is assigned. So, when YM gets to the Anthony's, does he even know about the first 2 calls? And if he does, has Cindy already gone into her "I only said the car was stolen to get somebody out here" routine? I understand police are trained to see beyond the surface, but they are not super-human. It must have been sheer chaos on Hopesprings drive that evening. I do see your point, JBean. I just feel like YM had to prioritize on the spot and following KC's information first was the natural path.

I've done a lot of research on this recently. We don't know exactly what Yuri knew, when he was told, or who told him. All we know for sure is that before Yuri questioned KC, which he did as soon as he arrived at the house about 3:30/3:45, somebody told him about the smell in the car.

It may have been one of the first responding officers briefing Yuri (one of them had gotten in the car and retrieved a note prior to Yuri's arrival), or it may have been George.

We don't have the call notes from the 911 calls, so we don't know if Cindy's statement was passed on to the first responding officers.

The one statement from a first responding officer I was able to find makes no mention of the smell. The officer says she responded to a stolen vehicle call, and it was changed to a kidnapping.

I tend to think it was one or more of the officers who told Yuri, because I believe it's standard procedure for officers to brief detectives when they arrive on the scene, and I believe this briefing would normally occur prior to interviewing people at the scene. MOO

However it happened, we do know that Yuri knew very early on his arrival about the smell in the car, per his own statements. We also know, again from Yuri's own statements, that he was suspicious of KC's story even before he recorded the interview with her. And the interview is what he says was the first thing he did at the house.

I see two 'misses' by LE. One is allowing KC to go into the garage with the car alone, and the second is not sealing or guarding the car sooner.

I see two possible impacts from these two 'misses'. One is that valuable evidence *may* have been lost - I doubt we'll ever know, and I can't think what could possibly be done about it at this point. The other impact would be the possibility of the defense using these 'misses' as evidence of an inadequate LE investigation, but I don't think they'll go there - they sure don't want to say there was any problem with KC being alone with the car, and I don't think they'd want to say the car should have been sealed or guarded because they seem to want to postulate that there was no dead body in the car. To the defense, if KC is innocent, there's no problem with her car. Hope I made sense - haven't had my coffee yet!

 

[Phumi]

Thanks, BeanE! You sure have done your research!!

 

[Harmony 2]

Question to those who believe the odor came from the trash bag:

If Caylee was not seen after June 16th by anyone and she was not in the trunk or at the remains site then where was she?

 

[notthatsmart]

Question to those who believe the odor came from the trash bag:

If Caylee was not seen after June 16th by anyone and she was not in the trunk or at the remains site then where was she?

She was with whomever Kc gave her to, or whomever took her from Kc. I know it is hard to believe that a babysitter would do this. The Preachers Daughter out in California that dumped the little girl in the drainage ditch in suitcase had her own little Daughter. It is possible. And so far, Kc story of giving Caylee to the sitter is the only one that makes sense to me. IMO

There is also the possibility that Kc sold the baby. It happens. I am suspicious of Kc being on that end of town (walmart) on the June 16th.

I do not believe that Caylee was in that trunk. The little tiny bit of trace evidence that was found (quetionable evidence) , is not consistant at all with other people whom have been put in trunks. There should have been lots of hair, lots of decomp, lots of dna, lots of bodily fluids. Caylees body was 36 inches long. The laundry bag was 24 inches long and only 16 inches in diameter with a steel ring. One trash bag was 36 inches long and the other was 24 inches long. It would be a difficult task to get her in there. After reading the Medical examiners report 10 times, I still can not tell if the main part of the body was in the bag. (arm bones, leg bones hand bones, foot bones all together). Yuri and other investigators did not even take the smell seriously. They didn't secure the car until the 17th. I can only conclude that they felt the smell was trash, otherwise if they really believed that smell was human decomp, they would have secured that car as a crime scene righ away. This is all just my opinion of course and I know it is a little off topic, and I am sorry for that, but I wanted to answer the question with all due respect.

 

[okiedokietoo]

She was with whomever Kc gave her to, or whomever took her from Kc. I know it is hard to believe that a babysitter would do this. The Preachers Daughter out in California that dumped the little girl in the drainage ditch in suitcase had her own little Daughter. It is possible. And so far, Kc story of giving Caylee to the sitter is the only one that makes sense to me. IMO

There is also the possibility that Kc sold the baby. It happens. I am suspicious of Kc being on that end of town (walmart) on the June 16th.

I do not believe that Caylee was in that trunk. The little tiny bit of trace evidence that was found (quetionable evidence) , is not consistant at all with other people whom have been put in trunks. There should have been lots of hair, lots of decomp, lots of dna, lots of bodily fluids. Caylees body was 36 inches long. The laundry bag was 24 inches long and only 16 inches in diameter with a steel ring. One trash bag was 36 inches long and the other was 24 inches long. It would be a difficult task to get her in there. After reading the Medical examiners report 10 times, I still can not tell if the main part of the body was in the bag. (arm bones, leg bones hand bones, foot bones all together). Yuri and other investigators did not even take the smell seriously. They didn't secure the car until the 17th. I can only conclude that they felt the smell was trash, otherwise if they really believed that smell was human decomp, they would have secured that car as a crime scene righ away. This is all just my opinion of course and I know it is a little off topic, and I am sorry for that, but I wanted to answer the question with all due respect.

1st - you stick to your guns, I'll give you that - I like the debate

1) The Anthony's cleaned the car, speculating but would assume that includes using a vacuum/car vac
2) have a 2 1/2 yer old nephew that can crawl into and through the smallest places. The average height for a 2 1/2 year old girl is 30" and for a 3 year old is 33". Children at that age are so flexible so I think a 3 year old would fit into the bag dimensions you listed IMO
3) scavenger animals would have moved or not moved bones from their original location in the bag - and the elements i.e. water flooding and receding could have contributed to the movement of the bones
4)In reference to securing the car - I believe the immediate concern was to try and locate a 2 year old child missing for 31 days, last seen by mother who was taking the LE to bogus addresses all around Orlando

not trying to convince you - this is just MO to what you posted

 

[cecybeans]

1st - you stick to your guns, I'll give you that - I like the debate

1) The Anthony's cleaned the car, speculating but would assume that includes using a vacuum/car vac
2) have a 2 1/2 yer old nephew that can crawl into and through the smallest places. The average height for a 2 1/2 year old girl is 30" and for a 3 year old is 33". Children at that age are so flexible so I think a 3 year old would fit into the bag dimensions you listed IMO
3) scavenger animals would have moved or not moved bones from their original location in the bag - and the elements i.e. water flooding and receding could have contributed to the movement of the bones
4)In reference to securing the car - I believe the immediate concern was to try and locate a 2 year old child missing for 31 days, last seen by mother who was taking the LE to bogus addresses all around Orlando

not trying to convince you - this is just MO to what you posted

I have the exact laundry bag and a toddler in the fetal position would easily fit into it. ITA about the car. LE was trying their best to look for a live child and didn't switch gears until it was just patently obvious KC was lying through her teeth about the existence of this imaginanny. Her lie about being afraid to alert LE (like it was a scene out of Ransom) was also ridiculous. After she was caught, LE was already alerted and it was all over the news, so how could she "protect" anybody by being quiet? The fact she still refused to talk meant she had nothing truthful to say, imo.

Besides, with the giant stink the Anthonys made over the fact that KC was the only (and most obvious) suspect, they would have gone over the moon if LE had impounded that car any earlier. They would have probably been on the news the next day saying LE was trying to frame their daughter because they impounded her car. I don't see a clear way LE could have won on this one. Besides, and I can't emphasize this enough, they KNEW the car had been contaminated by the family. Leaving it there another few hours would not make any difference. Unless one of the family shampooed the trunk again.

 

[BeanE]

She was with whomever Kc gave her to, or whomever took her from Kc. I know it is hard to believe that a babysitter would do this. The Preachers Daughter out in California that dumped the little girl in the drainage ditch in suitcase had her own little Daughter. It is possible. And so far, Kc story of giving Caylee to the sitter is the only one that makes sense to me. IMO

There is also the possibility that Kc sold the baby. It happens. I am suspicious of Kc being on that end of town (walmart) on the June 16th.

I do not believe that Caylee was in that trunk. The little tiny bit of trace evidence that was found (quetionable evidence) , is not consistant at all with other people whom have been put in trunks. There should have been lots of hair, lots of decomp, lots of dna, lots of bodily fluids. Caylees body was 36 inches long. The laundry bag was 24 inches long and only 16 inches in diameter with a steel ring. One trash bag was 36 inches long and the other was 24 inches long. It would be a difficult task to get her in there. After reading the Medical examiners report 10 times, I still can not tell if the main part of the body was in the bag. (arm bones, leg bones hand bones, foot bones all together). Yuri and other investigators did not even take the smell seriously. They didn't secure the car until the 17th. I can only conclude that they felt the smell was trash, otherwise if they really believed that smell was human decomp, they would have secured that car as a crime scene righ away. This is all just my opinion of course and I know it is a little off topic, and I am sorry for that, but I wanted to answer the question with all due respect.

BBM

Wrong. Please track back through all the hard work done to verify that the car was sealed and towed to the forensics bay on the 16th.