Prosecutors won't seek death penalty UPDATE Or will they?

[not_my_kids]

In this case they would get involuntary manslaughter - IN THE CASE they confess of the initial crime, show remorse and stand up to take responsibility -

IF they acted like Casey making up stories, or the boy or girl had previous attempts on theft, they had researched how to commit a robbery, etc. THEN they would get murder one

The difference between this and that scenario - there was not act of premeditation, no lies to police, no actions that contridict with the told action, etc.

Give a better example of murder one please - in your scenerio there is no way they would be charged with that

Yeppers, that would be invol. manslaughter, or reckless endangerment resulting in death.
No way that would fly for murder one.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

If you scroll back you will see you requested an example of how murder one could be charged in Florida without the elements of premeditation and malice aforethought.
I answered your question. My shop is closed for coffee break. :coffeecup:

I will gladly spring for the coffee. (-)> (-)> (Want me to add Kahlua to that with some whipped cream? )

 

[trac]

Murder itself is defined as the intentional and unlawful killing of another human being. A Florida murder is a felony charge divided into two classifications:

When a murder is premeditated (planned ahead of time) or is committed during the commission of another felony (such as robbery or rape), it is classified as 1st degree murder – a capital felony, punishable by the death sentence.
When a murder is not premeditated but is still intentional or shows an extreme disregard for human life (such as committing an action which is extremely dangerous to others), this is classified as 2nd degree murder and is usually a felony in the first degree – punishable by up to 30 years in prison.

We know that all cases have circumstances that will make this murder one or two - as for the robbery as stated above it all depends on the prosecutor, the people invovled, showing of remorse, taking responsiblity for ones actions, etc.

With Casey I believe that why this will be a first degree murder conviction is because Casey has not shown any remorse, has not taken any responsibility for her actions, everything that happened leading up to what happened and her actions AFTER she was arrested. If this is truly a kidnapping, which we all know it isn't, then the A's including Casey would have acted differently, have pleaded for the child to be returned, etc.

This is where Casey went wrong - with this whole story of hers, if she would have come on camera and pleaded for the childs life and to be returned - well who knows how different the public would have acted - yes this reeks of Susan Smith's case - tho there is so much more related to this case than just the murder/disappearnce of Caylee - we have theft during the month in question, we just might have the beginnings of identity theft during the month in question - there is just so much more involved

The only case I've seen that was open and shut was the Manson murders - there was premeditation, intent, complete disregard for human life and well they confessed - that always helps

There is one other case, the man who murdered all those nurses in the 50's I believe - when he was caught I think he confessed I'm not sure I'd have to read up on it again

 

[magnolia]

IIRC, casey is also charged with manslaughter, right? Kinda like the states back up plan? So even though they don't have DP to bargain with anymore, they do still have the option of dropping murder (LWOP) down to manslaughter (much lighter punishment) if she takes them to Caylee. Run her 15 for manslaughter concurrently with her 30 for check fraud and with good behavior, parole, etc. she could be out by the time she's 45. LOTS better than a life behind bars.
Part of me wants her to rot, permanently. Part of me wants her to just freakin tell us already.

Casey won't get a 30 yr. sentence on the check fraud chg. IMO

 

[Wudge]

In this case they would get involuntary manslaughter - IN THE CASE they confess of the initial crime, show remorse and stand up to take responsibility -

IF they acted like Casey making up stories, or the boy or girl had previous attempts on theft, they had researched how to commit a robbery, etc. THEN they would get murder one

The difference between this and that scenario - there was not act of premeditation, no lies to police, no actions that contridict with the told action, etc.

Give a better example of murder one please - in your scenerio there is no way they would be charged with that

Within a state, "felony murder" is defined by statute. In other words, it's hardboiled law inside that state.

When a classroom of High School seniors are told similar stories of what represents "felony murder", your reaction is comparable to theirs (and those of most any parent).

Net. A felony was committed. A person died as a result of that felony (proximate cause). The D.A. charges those involved in the crime with felony murder as defined by the felony murder statute within that state, which carries murder one penalty options, not manslaughter.

 

[not_my_kids]

Casey won't get a 30 yr. sentence on the check fraud chg. IMO

She might if she gets a judge that is irritated that it looks like she'll walk on murder.

 

[not_my_kids]

The example cited above is very shaky ground. Since the store owner technically died AFTER the commission of the felony (they were no longer committing the theft) then the during the commission of a felony statute is negated.

 

[Wudge]

SNIP

as for the robbery as stated above it all depends on the prosecutor, the people invovled, showing of remorse, taking responsiblity for ones actions, etc.

SNIP

Not true. It depends on the state's felony murder statute. In Florida, the felony murder statute provides for two options, death or LWOP.

 

[MiraclesHappen]

I will gladly spring for the coffee. (-)> (-)> (Want me to add Kahlua to that with some whipped cream? )

Unlocking shop door to sneak in SS...

:Banane35::Banane23::Banane23:

 

[Wudge]

Hey thanks for talking down to me - why not do what everyone else does here - treat others with respect!

As for your cut and dry analysis - you can do what you want I could care less - ALL cases are different - ALL cases get treated with the individual in mind - the case you so enlightened us with (which was totally ridiculous btw) would not be considered a first degree murder - UNLESS those involved showed remorse, culpability and honesty

Just by reading your posts, I lost all respect for you a long time ago - you only have come here to troll and cause problems

I'm not a fan of felony murder. But I certainly have not misrepresented it as regards how it exists in Florida. Moreover. it's not hard to find other people who can't believe how felony murder truly works.

As my Dad used to say, if there is a lesson-in-life to learn, try to take that lesson the easy way. A little research is the easy way.

http://felonymurderfl.org/

http://felonymurderfl.org/resources/so-you-think-your-kids-are-safe/

 

[magnolia]

*Snipped*

ALL cases are different - ALL cases get treated with the individual in mind

*Snipped*

You're right. All cases are different.

We can speculate on the outcome of this case 24/7 each and every day up until the verdict is read.

Bottom line is, none of us, even those of us that appear to have legal expertise can predict what a Jury will do.

 

[JBean]

I'm not a fan of felony murder. But I certainly have not misrepresented it as regards how it exists in Florida. Moreover. it's not hard to find other people who can't believe how felony murder truly works.

As my Dad used to say, if there is a lesson-in-life to learn, try to take that lesson the easy way. A little research is the easy way.

http://felonymurderfl.org/

http://felonymurderfl.org/resources/so-you-think-your-kids-are-safe/

wowza. I would like to read the trial transcripts. I have got to believe there was more to the story. Wudge do you know the details to be as presented? or do you just know what is included in that piece?
I will say that here in Cali I have seen things almost as outrageous as that happen,if true, but not quite to that level. wowza.

 

[DotsEyes]

What does "Life Without Parole" mean in Florida? Here it also means without a life sentence without the possibility of parole, probation of commutation of sentence. It means LIFE - the perp spends their entire natural life in, and dies in, prison.

It also means there are no automatic appeals. Women live to be an average of 75 years of age according to the actuary tables and 53 years behind walls is a very substantial sentence. It is justice.

Like SP, I think that KC will thrive in prison life. She will never go home again. Her party girl days are over, no more pools, beaches, beer pong. She never has to work at a real job, she doesn't have to worry about bills, men, car breakdowns or diappointing her parents. There is nothing more she can do to hurt them or let them down. Soon, no one will even mention Caylee to her, so she doesn't have to think about that either.

No deal is on the table. The State does not make deals unless they have gotten what they want first. I didn't hear that a confession was made, did you?
Obviously, the State does not believe that they can win a DP, so they have taken it out of the equation.

Now the only plea bargaining available is to shorten her sentence to Life, not to exceed X number of years - like 20. Then there will be the fraud charges, add 6 years. In 26 years, Grandma and Grandpa will have died, LA will have married and have grown kids that she has never seen, GA and CA will be 76 and 83 years of age, if they are still alive. All of her friends will be long gone and she will be 49 years of age, unemployable (no sweat for her) and beat to hell by so many years in prison.

I am starting to love the 'La Bella Vita' tattoo being worn in prison. Such irony.

 

[MiraclesHappen]

Cite any case in Florida where any trial Judge has interpreted this to mean that LE and/or prosecutors are therefore required to give any evidence whatsoever to the media prior to trial?

(does due process ring a bell?)

http://www.hklaw.com/id24660/PublicationId2292/ReturnId31/contentid49628/

"When a reporter for the Gray Television-owned station requested the material under Florida’s public records law, the state refused, and the defendant filed a motion to preclude release of the information, alleging that the release would deprive the defendant of a fair trial. WCTV moved to intervene."

The outcome:

"Over strong objections from prosecutors and defense counsel, a Florida trial judge has ordered the state to release a surveillance tape that allegedly shows a murder defendant disposing of a college student’s body, and his statement to police made after the arrest."

 

[trac]

What does "Life Without Parole" mean in Florida? Here it also means without a life sentence without the possibility of parole, probation of commutation of sentence. It means LIFE - the perp spends their entire natural life in, and dies in, prison.

It also means there are no automatic appeals. Women live to be an average of 75 years of age according to the actuary tables and 53 years behind walls is a very substantial sentence. It is justice.

Like SP, I think that KC will thrive in prison life. She will never go home again. Her party girl days are over, no more pools, beaches, beer pong. She never has to work at a real job, she doesn't have to worry about bills, men, car breakdowns or diappointing her parents. There is nothing more she can do to hurt them or let them down. Soon, no one will even mention Caylee to her, so she doesn't have to think about that either.

No deal is on the table. The State does not make deals unless they have gotten what they want first. I didn't hear that a confession was made, did you?
Obviously, the State does not believe that they can win a DP, so they have taken it out of the equation.

Now the only plea bargaining available is to shorten her sentence to Life, not to exceed X number of years - like 20. Then there will be the fraud charges, add 6 years. In 26 years, Grandma and Grandpa will have died, LA will have married and have grown kids that she has never seen, GA and CA will be 76 and 83 years of age, if they are still alive. All of her friends will be long gone and she will be 49 years of age, unemployable (no sweat for her) and beat to hell by so many years in prison.

I am starting to love the 'La Bella Vita' tattoo being worn in prison. Such irony.

you know it reminds me of Leslie Van Houten - she was I believe in her early 20's when she was convicted of her part in the Manson murders - getting the death penalty, commuted to Life and has been up for parole many times only to be denied as of late - she adjusted well to prison life

The others involved with these murders adjusted well - through extensive counseling and reflection they have repented tho do not show the true remorse that the state looks for in granting parole - in this case I don't see the public outcry letting these people out of prison anyways - they've gotten married, had children, etc.

The same for Casy, she will adjust, she'll get fan mail, I'm sure she will meet someone and marry behind bars - it will be a change but a life nonetheless

 

[Wudge]

wowza. I would like to read the trial transcripts. I have got to believe there was more to the story. Wudge do you know the details to be as presented? or do you just know what is included in that piece?
I will say that here in Cali I have seen things almost as outrageous as that happen,if true, but not quite to that level. wowza.

No JBean. I do not know the particulars in that case. It's just one of thousands of felony murder cases that ended up in a seemingly inconceivable way in the minds of those who went to prison or those who are related to those who went to prison.

I only did a nanosecond of research on the web to find that story. I'm sure you could a ton of similar cases just via simple online research.

If you tell one of these stories to a class of High Schoolers, typically the guys eyes will roll all around and some young lady will soon say: "that's not fair, that can't be right".

On the side of felony murder, there are thousands of felony murder cases where, in my mind at least, the application of the statute and penalty did fit the crime, and I was fine with the inflexibility of the statue

I'm sure you understand that I would naturally prefer a more flexible approach. But what I might prefer really matters not. What is important here is simply for posters to truly understand exactly how felony murder works. Like statutory rape, felony murder is also statute driven. Unfortunately, my experiences have taught me that people just can't believe how truly inflexible some laws are.

 

[JBean]

No JBean. I do not know the particulars in that case. It's just one of thousands of felony murder cases that ended up in a seemingly inconceivable way in the minds of those who went to prison or those who are related to those who went to prison.

I only did a nanosecond of research on the web to find that story. I'm sure you could a ton of similar cases just via simple online research.

If you tell one of these stories to a class of High Schoolers, typically the guys eyes will roll all around and some young lady will soon say: "that's not fair, that can't be right".

On the side of felony murder, there are thousands of felony murder cases where, in my mind at least, the application of the statute and penalty did fit the crime, and I was fine with the inflexibility of the statue

I'm sure you understand that I would naturally prefer a more flexible approach. But what I might prefer really matters not. What is important here is simply for posters to truly understand exactly how felony murder works. Like statutory rape, felony murder is also statute driven. Unfortunately, my experiences have taught me that people just can't believe how truly inflexible some laws are.

IIRC, I learned from you at one point that a jury should not consider the possible sentence when determining guilt or innocence. But as we all know they consider it anyway.
I saw this illustrated in the Haidl Rape case, a local case for me. There was a video of the rape by 3 young men on a drugged and unconscious girl. Let me repeat that..it was videotaped from beginning to end.
The jury could not convict because of a couple things.
1. The girls promiscuity
2. the jury could not bring themselves to sentence 3- 18 yo's to 50 years in prison.

The jury was deadlocked and so it was retried. The reason the DA was successful the second time around was because they significantly reduced and dropped many of the charges so that the sentence would not be as harsh. they were convicted and spent a short period of time in prison, with credit for time served making it practically nothing.

Bringing this back around to KC, I wonder if the prosecution does not want to make the same mistake the prosecutors did in the Haidl trial by making the sentence something the jurors could not live with because there is too much room for doubt.

ETA: Oh and coming from a zero tolerance school district, I totally understand "inflexible"

 

[Wudge]

IIRC, I learned from you at one point that a jury should not consider the possible sentence when determining guilt or innocence. But as we all know they consider it anyway.
I saw this illustrated in the Haidl Rape case, a local case for me. There was a video of the rape by 3 young men on a drugged and unconscious girl. Let me repeat that..it was videotaped from beginning to end.
The jury could not convict because of a couple things.
1. The girls promiscuity
2. the jury could not bring themselves to sentence 3- 18 yo's to 50 years in prison.

The jury was deadlocked and so it was retried. The reason the DA was successful the second time around was because they significantly reduced and dropped many of the charges so that the sentence would not be as harsh. they were convicted and spent a short period of time in prison, with credit for time served making it practically nothing.

Bringing this back around to KC, I wonder if the prosecution does not want to make the same mistake the prosecutors did in the Haidl trial by making the sentence something the jurors could not live with because there is too much room for doubt.

ETA: Oh and coming from a zero tolerance school district, I totally understand "inflexible"

In my mind, if Casey's prosecutors were concerned in that regard, they would have dropped the murder one charge in its entirety.

In a prior post, you noted the lack of a body in this case. In discussing the Scott Peterson verdict, the one thing that jurors consistently noted in post verdict interviews was that without a body, they could not have convicted Scott.

The evidence level is this case is similar to Laci's case, except LE could not even come up with a body this time.

Prosecutors have no eyewitness, no confession, no cause of death, no place of death, no time of death and no crime scene as well as not even having a body.

You know how I examine sources of inculpatory evidence to see how prosecutors could reasonably prove murder one. I don't see how it's possible given the evidence that we know of and given the fact that prosecutors just dropped the death penalty.

Moreover, using air sampling to try and prove death certainly can't establish the circumstances of the death or the mechanics of the death or the alleged state of mind of the defendant.

My current take is that the best thing prosecutors have going for them is that this is another case with a massively poisoned jury pool.

 

[JBean]

In my mind, if Casey's prosecutors were concerned in that regard, they would have dropped the murder one charge in its entirety.

Okay you're right and I have to agree.

In a prior post, you noted the lack of a body in this case. In discussing the Scott Peterson verdict, the one thing that jurors consistently noted in post verdict interviews was that without a body, they could not have convicted Scott.

The evidence level is this case is similar to Laci's case, except LE could not even come up with a body this time.

Prosecutors have no eyewitness, no confession, no cause of death, no place of death, no time of death and no crime scene as well as not even having a body.

You know how I examine sources of inculpatory evidence to see how prosecutors could reasonably prove murder one. I don't see how it's possible given the evidence that we know of and given the fact that prosecutors just dropped the death penalty.

Moreover, using air sampling to try and prove death certainly can't establish the circumstances of the death or the mechanics of the death or the alleged state of mind of the defendant.

My current take is that the best thing prosecutors have going for them is that this is another case with a massively poisoned jury pool.

I have been mulling this very thing over in my mind and find it to be an interesting parallel.
I think that in KC's case the circumstantial evidence is better than in SP's case. SP was smart enough to make up lies about his whereabouts that couold not be verified one way or the other. If KC had not made up clear lies as to what transpired and then waited to report, I think she would be a in far superior position.I find her lies to be among the most incriminating evidence. Unfortunately, incriminating of what? Selling her daughter? Giving her daughter away? Murder? I think that the forensics are going to be critical and if they can 100% place Caylee deceased in that trunk, that will do it. but the missing body is a problem no matter how you slice it. because anything less than 100% deceased in the trunk is going to go to reasonable doubt.

This is going to be an interesting case to watch.

 

[justbetweenus]

I'm not a fan of felony murder. But I certainly have not misrepresented it as regards how it exists in Florida. Moreover. it's not hard to find other people who can't believe how felony murder truly works.

As my Dad used to say, if there is a lesson-in-life to learn, try to take that lesson the easy way. A little research is the easy way.

http://felonymurderfl.org/

http://felonymurderfl.org/resources/so-you-think-your-kids-are-safe/

Oh wow! that article was very interesting, and scary. At first I was thinking ok here we go again..... another parent saying no way not my boy. This is extremely harrowing. Thanks Wudge.

I found a little more on this story.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/04/us/04felony.html?pagewanted=print