Psychological Markers

[scandi]

I just wanted to point out that S.T.A.L.K., Inc has updated their Long Island perp profile as of January 9, 2012. Their recent update has me wondering if LE has the perp on the ropes? Here is the link for anyone interested in checking it out:

http://www.stalkinc.com/profile6.html

Do you know if STALK is a private profiling group? If so, does LE give them info about the case? Otherwise how would they know his idiosyncrasies ?

 

[Just K]

Do you know if STALK is a private profiling group? If so, does LE give them info about the case? Otherwise how would they know his idiosyncrasies ?

I looked at their cached page. They are private.

 

[scandi]

Scandi, SG's missing shoes...hmmmm...that is a good point. We know that at least some of the Manorville victim's were missing body parts. IIRC, JT was missing her head and a foot and hand. Jane Doe 10 was in pieces and is still with missing parts. We have heard that the GB4 were naked. So, we don't know what happened to their shoes.

About AC SK not being a sweet talker: The minister who says Kim R was last seen as she left to go to one of the casinos, with that one guy, might beg to differ. Also, BB was said to be a looker who could pass in the casinos (not be spotted as a pro.) No one really knows too much about the AC killer either. One has to wonder if the profilers are suggesting that because the women were found behind one of the seediest motels in AC.

From STALK I got that this killer wanted these bodies where he could look down on or over to where they were. They were all close together and facing East which was toward the direction the killer lived. Don't mean to get into a discussion of AC, but it is fascinating in relationship to the comparison of the other killings.

 

[scandi]

I looked at their cached page. They are private.

Hmmmm I wish they were LE. Maybe their staff are ex-FBI or LE officers. Here I got all excited about an updated profile like it was from Quantico.

I watched a news video today where the lifeguard screams at GC. The newscaster said the FBI were never in on the LISK cases because Suffolk County would not accept their help. Had you heard that. Here all along I thought the FBI was 'on' it.

 

[Just K]

Hmmmm I wish they were LE. Maybe their staff are ex-FBI or LE officers. Here I got all excited about an updated profile like it was from Quantico.

I watched a news video today where the lifeguard screams at GC. The newscaster said the FBI were never in on the LISK cases because Suffolk County would not accept their help. Had you heard that. Here all along I thought the FBI was 'on' it.

Yep, that is what I heard, too. That the FBI offered but were snubbed. I think they have jurisdiction over any of the cases where the victims crossed state lines. So, we will see if they pull rank. Shannan did cross state lines to get to JB's but until it is called a murder, as opposed to a drowning, then SCPD may hold the cards...so to speak. It is very frustrating. It does feel like there is definitely something being swept under the rug. Hopefully, Shannan's mother and her legal team will force SCPD's hand.

ETA: MBB and MW definitely crossed state lines.

 

[Dwntwnslim]

Do you know if STALK is a private profiling group? If so, does LE give them info about the case? Otherwise how would they know his idiosyncrasies ?

Yes, it appears that they are a private profiling group. Here are some links for info about them:

S.T.A.L.K. Inc.
Homepage
http://www.stalkinc.com/

Discovery Channel Press-release
http://press.discovery.com/us/id/pr...igation-discoverys-dark-minds-explores--1667/

Here is a short bio of John Kelly, one of the S.T.A.L.K profilers:
http://press.discovery.com/us/id/talent/kelly-john/

Profiler links inmate to two killing
The Boston Globe
http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...wo-killings/JohV2GocDzQXHQpAZ9DoVM/story.html

Here is a link to a journalist's website who is a part of the S.T.A.L.K., Inc. team:

http://www.mwilliamphelps.com/

 

[shadowraiths]

For those interested in Dahmer's psychological profile ( link ):

Tell Me a Story: MMPI Responses and Personal Biography in the Case of a Serial Killer

Abstract

The interpretation of MMPI (Hathaway & McKinley, 1943) profiles has emphasized a language of pathological attribution that often serves the interests of clinical description and actuarial prediction better than those of individual case formulation and an understanding of the adaptive forces involved in the production of symptomatic behavior. In this article, I illustrate a contrasting approach, one that emphasizes MMPI items and scales as instruments of personal biography, with the case of the serial murderer Jeffrey Dahmer.​

If you haven't read the aforementioned peer reviewed paper, I urge you to do so, as opposed to making stuff up out of whole cloth while relying upon nothing more than tabloid talking head garbage. Just saying...

 

[Peter Brendt]

I just wanted to point out that S.T.A.L.K., Inc has updated their Long Island perp profile as of January 9, 2012. Their recent update has me wondering if LE has the perp on the ropes? Here is the link for anyone interested in checking it out:

http://www.stalkinc.com/profile6.html

Well. if they are right, I will lose my personal record. But otherwise, it's some kind of profile one-oh-one. I haven't heard yet, that any of the bodies showed evidence of traumas ... so the sadist part is still in the open. And well, the whole sex part is only based on the gender of the victims. So, as of yet, I'm not impressed. Maybe because I have seen too often everyone staring on the sex angle. Which, admittedly is in about 80% correct, the rest of 20% are those, normally dying in freedom from old age.

 

[Peter Brendt]

I do too, and your posts too Peter are always so informative.

Dwn, I've been thinking about this SK being labeled a 'sexual sadist' as it says in this link and wonder if that means he is psychopathic and or sociopathic as well? Thank you so much for that STALK link - fascinating for sure.

I was a bit busy here, therefore delayed reaction on your and DwnTwnSlim, sorry. Lets have a look on psychopaths and sociopaths. The first problem is, those terms are not hard defined. And the little, that is defined, is defined differently by European and US experts.
As an over the thumb rule, psychopaths are anti-social personalities, highly manipulative and often fueled by a lot of bottled up rage in connection with the idea, the world owns them more than they got. A hundred percent pure psychopath is a very rare appearance (in fact, I heard over all the years only of one yet, who could have been one and that was no SK but an Assyrian king).
Sociopaths are also anti-social in the sense, that sociopaths have no feeling for social rules, no empathy and also very rarely remorse for anything, they do. But they are usually not fueled by rage because they are mostly unable to even be angry longer than like ten minutes. That stretches in many cases their ability to feel already pretty far. So technically, the sociopath is emotionally even "deader" than the psychopath.
Standing alone, those two disorders have a lot in common. Both are manipulative in the limits of their intelligence and both learn normally early to simulate emotions and social behavior. And it's really a simulation because they "calculate" the reaction expected from them. However, the significant difference is, that the psychopath already based on him being a psychopath (i.e. without any supporting secondary diagnosis) tends to be sadistic and homicidal. The psychopath is technically the classic SK.
The sociopath on the other hand (and you will hear this term so often wrongfully used when people mean in fact a psychopath) is emotionally distant till emotionally cold. He uses the same intellectual adaption mechanism, but since he is normally not fueled by rage or homicidal urges with other goals. The typical sociopath uses this ability regularly for career purposes (you find a lot of sociopathic patterns in top managers and politicians, no kidding). Since they know, they can in extreme situations run off the track, they often avoid violence in all forms unless they have other reasons or a secondary diagnosis enforcing such a behavior.
Another rule of thumb says, you can meet a lot of sociopaths in your life and most of the time won't even know it. But if you meet a psychopath and come on his wrong side, he will probably ponder about killing you.
But keep in mind, this is all primary diagnosis. Most SKs (and also most other non-killing patients with anti-social personality disorders) have a bunch of secondary diagnoses. This can go from OCD, NPD to Asperger's (rarely) or even into the realm of delusional behavior.

PS: I don't think JB fits the 'sweet talker' personality, although it could be he was under pressure from the reporter when I heard him speak. Also, is CG the one of these 3 OB guys {including CPH} who has not acted as a John? Ta

After all I heard form him yet, he has neither the social simulation skill nor the IQ of a good psycho- or sociopath.

 

[Peter Brendt]

I am of the camp that believes that AC is related. I will be very surprised if one day it is determined, beyond a reasonable doubt, that AC & GB4 are unrelated. My personal theory about this killer's profile: As the killer matured in age, social standing, educational & professional experience and possible life changes occurred (health, family structure, religious belief system, available workspace or vehicle, etc) that his MO, in killing, also matured or became more sophisticated, more detailed and more ritualistic.

The problem is, that GB is less sophisticated in a lot of details. No staging, just wrapping and dropping. And the staging in AC indicates, the killer wanted to tell something. The LISK2 doesn't tell anything by staging (he did so hidden in the telephone calls and that was a different message).
So, two different profiles at all from where I stand.

Re: The Patterson Book (Beach Road)
A copy of this book was found near the four victims.

Here is a snippet from Amazon

Amazon.com: Beach Road (9780316159784): James Patterson ...
"www.amazon.com › Books › Literature & Fiction
The gripping Beach Road returns to the world of the Hamptons, where Patterson set The Beach House (2002). Tom Dunleavy is a small-time lawyer who lands a ..."

And from Patterson's website:

http://www.jamespatterson.com/books_beachRoad.php

"EXPENSIVE
Then a friend of Tom's is arrested for a triple murder near a movie star's mansion. Tom knows in his gut that Dante Halleyville is innocent. Dante asks him to represent him in what could be the Trial of the Century.

EXCLUSIVE
Tom recruits Manhattan superlawyer Kate Costello to help. She's a tough hire, because Kate is his ex-girlfriend-but she agrees. In their search to find who really executed three locals, Tom orchestrates a series of revelations to expose the killer-and what emerges is staggering."[/QUOTE]

Well, I'm a writer myself and even if some here have some doubts, I know after being a decade published with some dozen books in German (I am originally from Germany) a little bit about how books are written. Writers like Patterson do a lot of research, so they say often for example about profiling unusual things because they look during that research at things from another angle. A writer asks all the time "what if". And they are usually pretty good in building elaborate crimes of all kinds. I am on a writer's board too and you will probably never find a similar bloodthirsty bunch ;-) But seriously, readers committing murders following a novel are very rare and most writers build in little glitches which would a wannabe killer following the recipe lead right into failure. So the only interesting part considering the LISK2 case is rather, that the book was there in the first place. Because someone lost it. But when?

 

[Peter Brendt]

For those interested in Dahmer's psychological profile ( link ):

Tell Me a Story: MMPI Responses and Personal Biography in the Case of a Serial Killer

Abstract

The interpretation of MMPI (Hathaway & McKinley, 1943) profiles has emphasized a language of pathological attribution that often serves the interests of clinical description and actuarial prediction better than those of individual case formulation and an understanding of the adaptive forces involved in the production of symptomatic behavior. In this article, I illustrate a contrasting approach, one that emphasizes MMPI items and scales as instruments of personal biography, with the case of the serial murderer Jeffrey Dahmer.​

If you haven't read the aforementioned peer reviewed paper, I urge you to do so, as opposed to making stuff up out of whole cloth while relying upon nothing more than tabloid talking head garbage. Just saying...

Interesting reading, but more from a historical point of view, since it's basically based on Hathaway's work in the 1940s. Which by all means a few days past. Not all is wrong though, only because it's old. And on an interesting trivia note: You know that was exactly what they employed when they let Gacy go because he didn't pose a danger for society or himself anymore. Of course, he killed more than thirty after that ...

 

[scandi]

Well. if they are right, I will lose my personal record. But otherwise, it's some kind of profile one-oh-one. I haven't heard yet, that any of the bodies showed evidence of traumas ... so the sadist part is still in the open. And well, the whole sex part is only based on the gender of the victims. So, as of yet, I'm not impressed. Maybe because I have seen too often everyone staring on the sex angle. Which, admittedly is in about 80% correct, the rest of 20% are those, normally dying in freedom from old age.

I've thought about this too Peter. I have heard several commentators on TV refer to this killer as a sexual sadist, then STALK - maybe LE too, can't remember. I thought, Gee, they must know something about the killings that we don't.

SEXUAL SADISM
http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=46417

Snippet Sexual sadism: Individuals with sexual sadism disorder have persistent fantasies in which sexual excitement results from inflicting psychological or physical suffering (including humiliation and terror) on a sexual partner. This disorder is different from minor acts of aggression in normal sexual activity; for example, rough sex. In some cases, sexual sadists are able to find willing partners to participate in the sadistic activities.

At its most extreme, sexual sadism involves illegal activities such as rape, torture, and even murder, in which case the death of the victim produces sexual excitement".


So, with a body which is skeletonized, how can LE determine that the killer was a sexual sadist?

 

[Theforeigner]

I've thought about this too Peter. I have heard several commentators on TV refer to this killer as a sexual sadist, then STALK - maybe LE too, can't remember. I thought, Gee, they must know something about the killings that we don't.

SEXUAL SADISM
http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=46417

Snippet Sexual sadism: Individuals with sexual sadism disorder have persistent fantasies in which sexual excitement results from inflicting psychological or physical suffering (including humiliation and terror) on a sexual partner. This disorder is different from minor acts of aggression in normal sexual activity; for example, rough sex. In some cases, sexual sadists are able to find willing partners to participate in the sadistic activities.

At its most extreme, sexual sadism involves illegal activities such as rape, torture, and even murder, in which case the death of the victim produces sexual excitement".


So, with a body which is skeletonized, how can LE determine that the killer was a sexual sadist?

The police do know what the killer told Melissa's littlesister in the 7 phonecalls he made to her back in July/Aug 2009. And it has been revailed that the killer decribed what he had done to Melissa before he killed her and how he killed her, and as I understnand it, it sure included sex and sadistic behaviour.

 

[Just K]

The problem is, that GB is less sophisticated in a lot of details. No staging, just wrapping and dropping. And the staging in AC indicates, the killer wanted to tell something. The LISK2 doesn't tell anything by staging (he did so hidden in the telephone calls and that was a different message).
So, two different profiles at all from where I stand.

Re: The Patterson Book (Beach Road)
A copy of this book was found near the four victims.

Here is a snippet from Amazon

Amazon.com: Beach Road (9780316159784): James Patterson ...
"www.amazon.com › Books › Literature & Fiction
The gripping Beach Road returns to the world of the Hamptons, where Patterson set The Beach House (2002). Tom Dunleavy is a small-time lawyer who lands a ..."

And from Patterson's website:

http://www.jamespatterson.com/books_beachRoad.php

"EXPENSIVE
Then a friend of Tom's is arrested for a triple murder near a movie star's mansion. Tom knows in his gut that Dante Halleyville is innocent. Dante asks him to represent him in what could be the Trial of the Century.

EXCLUSIVE
Tom recruits Manhattan superlawyer Kate Costello to help. She's a tough hire, because Kate is his ex-girlfriend-but she agrees. In their search to find who really executed three locals, Tom orchestrates a series of revelations to expose the killer-and what emerges is staggering."

The book was found in the AC murders next to one of the victims. Would be very interesting to know its condition and which victim it was found lying next to... It seems like it was just a message or a clue not that the SK was following the book. Just that the book, perhaps the title, had some meaning to him/her/whatever

 

[Dwntwnslim]

:banghead: OMG, Sorry, I meant Gus, GC. lol

ETA: Dwn, Could it be the perp asked Shannan to do something that she realized was not pleasurable and was sexually sadistic? Her street smarts and time working the trade would send warning signals to her brain right away. And furthermore, I think whatever it was he was doing to her, Shannan realized it could result in her death. She most likely saw this excited him sexually. What he was doing to her ??? Maybe cutting off her air supply too long, she got away from him, he was still excited to see her screaming about being killed so couldn't run after her right away ~ And maybe one of the other guys was cheering him on and acting like a pervert. Je ne sait. What do you think?

All of this makes sense to me.

Were you the one who, early on, said something to the effect of the sk believing that Long Island was "his"? If so, do you still feel that way? That idea really stuck with me.

 

[scandi]

All of this makes sense to me.

Were you the one who, early on, said something to the effect of the sk believing that Long Island was "his"? If so, do you still feel that way? That idea really stuck with me.

Hmmmm, I don't think it was I who said that. Maybe.

I'm still rolling Slug's possible 6 killer theory over in my head. But I think it was you who suggested after Shannan's death he had to find some place safe to store her. So he decided on the wild area close to where her things were found. I think that is very possible.

 

[Dwntwnslim]

Hmmmm, I don't think it was I who said that. Maybe.

I'm still rolling Slug's possible 6 killer theory over in my head. But I think it was you who suggested after Shannan's death he had to find some place safe to store her. So he decided on the wild area close to where her things were found. I think that is very possible.

No, it wasn't me who proposed the theory regarding the safe place to store Shannan Gilbert. It was truthspider.

Post #377

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157685&page=16

 

[Peter Brendt]

The police do know what the killer told Melissa's littlesister in the 7 phonecalls he made to her back in July/Aug 2009. And it has been revailed that the killer decribed what he had done to Melissa before he killed her and how he killed her, and as I understnand it, it sure included sex and sadistic behaviour.

I've heard nothing yet of broken bones (as result if a severe beating), knife marks in surface bones (that happens when sadists extensively cut for example on sternum or on the fingers or other regions, where bone is basically right under the skin), I've also heard nothing about broken thyroid bones (as a result of ligature strangulation). Of course, LE didn't release ME reports, but LE also didn't release any statements they found any of those telling signs. And yes, the phone calls served to terrify and humiliate and included also elaborate stories, what he had done to Melissa. But as of yet, nothing of it is corroborated by forensics as far as we know. So what is this? Sadistic behavior or dominance behavior? A bit hard to say, since they go often hand in hand.

 

[Dwntwnslim]

I've heard nothing yet of broken bones (as result if a severe beating), knife marks in surface bones (that happens when sadists extensively cut for example on sternum or on the fingers or other regions, where bone is basically right under the skin), I've also heard nothing about broken thyroid bones (as a result of ligature strangulation). Of course, LE didn't release ME reports, but LE also didn't release any statements they found any of those telling signs. And yes, the phone calls served to terrify and humiliate and included also elaborate stories, what he had done to Melissa. But as of yet, nothing of it is corroborated by forensics as far as we know. So what is this? Sadistic behavior or dominance behavior? A bit hard to say, since they go often hand in hand.

How do dominant & sadistic behavior compare & contrast?

 

[Peter Brendt]

How do dominant & sadistic behavior compare & contrast?

Sadistic behavior is basically a pain-fetish in it's purest form. So technically, most sadistic acts fall rather in the realm of paraphernalia. Connected to that are often also surrogate acts (the famous stabbing as replacement for penetration in a sexual sense, even, in reality this is pretty rare).
Dominance behavior is all about dominating, feeling strong, powerful and in control (in this order). It is usually the dominance behavior that causes such phone calls (psychological torture). Point is, dominance behavior occurs in connection with a number of personality disorder (for example anti-social/psychopath, narcissistic, even some rare forms of obsessive compulsive disorders in connection with religious delusions) .
While sadism, like any form of fetishism is basically the transfer of what we would consider normal sexual triggers, to another one, we consider most of the time as perverted or at least unusual (in case of sadism the arousal trigger is pain inflicted to the partner), dominance behavior is usually from inferiority complexes which in many cases in psychopaths would be supported by the in-built feeling of deserving anyway more than the world gave them.
An interesting example is Ted Nundy. He changed from beating to strangulation as kill method and back, whenever in his normal life things changed. In times, he felt strong, powerful in his normal life, he strangulated (he had already power, now he needed the control), in times, his personal life fell to parts, he beat his victims to death (power assurance/power gain). Problem is, beating and strangulation can be parts of either, sadistic or dominance behavior or any mix of it. While pure psychological torture would be rather dominance behavior and also include to lie to increase the psychological pressure on the called person.