RDI Theories & Discussion ONLY!

John said he looked at his wife and did not see someone evil enough to do what was done to JonBenet.

Evil is a mytho-poetic term. Today we know it as antisocial, sociopathic and psychopathic behavior.

John doesn't understand that and neither do you if you use terms like "psycho".

Patsy was psychotic and John has self deluded that his wife was not involved and the intruder is real.

From http://www.thefreedictionary.com/psycho
adj. Slang. n.
1. a psychopathic person; psychopath.
Noun
psycho - a person afflicted with psychosis

You're correct, I do not pretend to understand a diiagnosis of this, no more than I could diagnose my dog's skin allergies. I leave the psychological diagnoses to the experts. Not saying anyone's diagnosis is incorrect. Chemo brain terminology has been thrown around, as has BPD. I've never seen a medical diagnosis of PR, except what is found second hand in books and website quotes by forensic psychiatrists. moo
 
Sorry, I just took the STD as a joke. I didn't mean to say that JB had one or did not.

I don't know if it would be diagnosed at autopsy, or if they even tried.
 
Those are general discussions with nothing specific pointing to John.

If there is specific evidence pointing to John's inolvement that contradicts the anecdotes of Patsy screaming and handing John the note and John saying he found the body at 11 am then I would like to see that.

I don't think John was involved until after all was said and done and he realized what was going on. I think he helped bolster the cover-up and stood by his woman. Whether he was a part of what pushed Patsy's button that started the tragic chain of events I can't say. :fence:

ETA: imo, his reasoning on trying to get the plane and fly to Atlanta within hours of her body being discovered was because he wanted to talk to Patsy privately.
 
I don't think John was involved until after all was said and done and he realized what was going on. I think he helped bolster the cover-up and stood by his woman. Whether he was a part of what pushed Patsy's button that started the tragic chain of events I can't say. :fence:

ETA: imo, his reasoning on trying to get the plane and fly to Atlanta within hours of her body being discovered was because he wanted to talk to Patsy privately.

I don't think JR wanted to get on that plane to have a conversation. He wanted to get his family out of Dodge asap. Given his resources and connections, he may even have fled the country.
 
John said he looked at his wife and did not see someone evil enough to do what was done to JonBenet.

Evil is a mytho-poetic term. Today we know it as antisocial, sociopathic and psychopathic behavior.

John doesn't understand that and neither do you if you use terms like "psycho".

Patsy was psychotic and John has self deluded that his wife was not involved and the intruder is real.


BBM,,,,,,,Link please?
 
I started this thinking about posts in the Henry Lee thread but I branched out too much, so I'm posting it here

psyops (psychological operations): planned operations to convey selected information and indicators to audiences to influence their emotions, motives, objective reasoning, and ultimately the behavior of governments, organizations, groups, and individuals.

Act I stage/fix
Act II make the call
Act III full house
Act IV react to discovery
Act V leave town

the CEO who presided over the merger of three companies into one which had recently announced one billion dollars in sales did not call 911. he deferred that to his histrionic wife. that 911 tape was enhanced at the urging of dispatcher Kimberly Archuleta who ended her shift that morning with PR's call. her professional experience left her with an uneasy feeling about the call and she spoke to her family about it that day. she didn't know the outcome until her next scheduled shift and she freaked when she heard about JB's murder. she immediately told her supervisor that someone needed to listen to the end of the call after PR stopped talking (to the dispatcher). Archuleta said the tone of PR's voice changed, the hysteria disappeared, and she (Archuleta) heard PR and two other voices before the call disconnected. we know the outcome of examining the tape

the Rs defied the threats in the RN because their psyops required many participants, consisting of Officers French and Veitch, Sergeant Reichenbach, the Fernies, the Whites, Reverend Haverstock, CSIs Weiss and Barcklow, Victim Advocates Morlock and Jedamus (civilians), Sergeant Whitson (who initiated contact with the FBI), Detectives Kithcart, Arndt, and Patterson

there were no fingerprints from the scribe on the RN/pen (gloves). there were no R fingerprints on the RN although they both claimed to have handled it (we have only their word for that). claiming that PR did not read the entire RN "told" their need to totally distance her from it

Arndt headquartered in the den where the ransom call would be answered. JR left the den three times during the two-hour window when the ransom call was expected. he was so far away that he had to run for the phone when someone else happened to call during that window. neither parent commented/reacted when the deadline passed without a ransom call, nor did their friends

despite being told to remain in the sunroom the nine civilians moved about at will and had to be frequently reminded to stay in one room. besides the contamination caused by merely being in the house, the Whites, Fernies and Haverstock used the kitchen to make snacks and meals and they used the bathroom. Arndt was the only LE in the house for a period of two and a half hours

LE observed PR vomiting, hyperventilating, incoherent, confused, wailing, crying, and being consoled by her friends rather than her husband. there was only minimal interaction observed between the parents. during the darkest moments of their lives, it's telling that they sought and received consolation from their friends rather than each other. the seven non-family civilians also contaminated the atmosphere in the house. it would have been instructive for LE to observe the behavior/interaction of the parents without the distraction provided by their friends. (which is why they were invited)

JB's body was staged for an anticipated and desired discovery (cocooning her in a blanket was a loving and personal instinct they could not overcome). I think JR was shocked when he realized that he would have to produce the body himself. leaving town hinged on wrapping things up, which could happen only after she was found. leaving town was crucial to setting a defense team stonewall in motion. his conversation with his pilot 20 minutes after the discovery reinforces that his plan was to leave ASAP. he asked how long it would take to get airborne and the pilot said two hours. only the intervention of BPD stopped the family from leaving that afternoon/evening (without their daughter's body which was awaiting autopsy and evidence gathering. how sad is that?)

JR's perception was skewed because he knew where JB was. LE's perception was to look for entry/exit points and other indicators coinciding with a kidnapping. his expectation was logical to him, given his knowledge. he'd been between a rock and a hard place before calling 911: leave her somewhere visible (then why didn't he find her) or leave her somewhere hidden (then they will find her). he was also between a rock and a hard place after LE arrived: they weren't finding her (because they weren't looking for her) so was it up to him to "find" her? (looking for a kidnap victim at the scene has likely been added to protocols nationwide, although I'm not aware of a case where the victim has been recovered/discovered that way)

reasons why she wasn't taken elsewhere: exposure to the elements/predators, being seen leaving/coming back, being seen at the dump site, leaving tire tracks there, not enough time to take her far enough away. I think the scenario would have been entirely different if they weren't expected in MI. without a travel deadline there would have been plenty of time and opportunity to effect a complete disappearance. maybe an abduction without a RN, because a RN with a disappearance would require their presence/availability in town for an ongoing period of time. finding JB that day wrapped things up: we're devastated, but she's not missing, we know where she is, and now we're leaving town

French was responsible for protecting the Rs from the dreaded foreign faction yet PR requested that he remove his uniform shirt and gunbelt. he is the one who observed PR peeking at him through her fingers while she was crying

French and Reichenbach toured all four stories of the home and they (and FW) are often faulted for not discovering JB's body during their walk-throughs of the basement. French and Reichenbach weren't looking for a missing child who had wandered from her bed, they were looking for points of entry/exit used by a kidnapper. the swivel latch on the WC door indicated that entering through the door from the exterior would damage it, and if exiting through the door from the interior the latch would not be in place. so I've never understood that criticism or argument

Commander Eller headed the detectives and he was at home on the 26th and officially on vacation. Detective Sergeant Mason was on-call at home to serve as acting commander. Eller issued some orders and instructions by phone when he was told about the kidnapping, and then Mason was notified and he drove from his home to BPD headquarters (where the four members of the FBI team who would soon arrive from Denver would, after reading the RN, advise BPD to "look to the parents")

PMPT:
At first Mason couldn't understand why the officers on the scene hadn't secured the house earlier, and questioned them individually. Then he learned that Commander Eller had ordered that the Ramseys be treated as victims, not suspects.

The Ramseys were an "influential family," Eller told Mason, who realized that this message must have affected the behavior of all the officers at the scene.

Judging by what Eller heard from officers at the scene, the Ramseys appeared to be part of Boulder's elite. "Credible millionaires" was a phrase one officer used. Obviously, Eller felt, these were people you had to treat with respect, not people you wanted to offend.

many of us have decided that finding JB in the home indicated that there was no kidnapping. the Rs denied and defied that indication with brazen lies, and without a shred of conscience they accused nearly everyone who spent time in their home. I think that, rather than fearing the discovery, they needed it to move forward with their (obviously successful) plan

around noon, which type of K9 to use was being debated by Eller and Mason. the Boulder dogs used ground scent and the Aurora dog used air scent. a better result is expected from an air scent dog when tracking someone taken in a vehicle, which seemed most likely. which dog(s) to use was still being decided/arranged when JB was found
 
(Quoted for reference, snipped for space):
I started this thinking about posts in the Henry Lee thread but I branched out too much, so I'm posting it here...
Excellent, excellent post, gramcracker -- especially when taken in context with your [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9850567&postcount=100"]posted quote from Bugliosi[/ame] on the other thread about circumstantial evidence being more like a rope than a chain.
 
Strangest thing I was actually looking for something non-Ramsey when I came across this. Its long but an interesting read. Here's a very interesting part...

One summer day in 1997 I sat beside the Ramseys in church only a few months after JonBenet’s passing. At one point, the reverend, Rol Hoverstock put his hand on John’s shoulder and compassionately whispered to him, “You’re a good man, John. I know you didn’t do this.”

Minutes later, when he walked by Patsy sitting alone in an empty pew, the two made eye contact, but instead of greeting her as he did John, he angrily looked away and drifted right past her.
That stunned me.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011...year-anniversary-retrospective/#ixzz2fRYi37CZ
 
[
QUOTE=BOESP;9848391]I don't think John was involved until after all was said and done and he realized what was going on. I think he helped bolster the cover-up and stood by his woman. Whether he was a part of what pushed Patsy's button that started the tragic chain of events I can't say. :fence:

Although not 100% convinced of which Ramsey did it, this is the theory I lean most strongly toward as well.

My thought is that John was not even part of the cover up that morning. I think he was buying it until he saw the Ransom Encyclopedia.....uh I mean note, and he realized Patsy had written it. He may have still been putting it together in his mind that morning.

One thing that has always struck me was the Emotional distance between John and Patsy the morning of the 26th. We have all seen missing children cases where divorced parents clung to each other when realizing their child was missing. I mean, really, who else is going to fully comprehend what you are feeling besides the other parent?

Yet by all accounts, they spent no time together, and did not even speak. That is just weird even for them. However, if you assume one parent is really, really angry and the other feels really, really guilty, it makes a lot of sense.

It also goes toward explaining Patsy's need to call half the city of Boulder to come over that morning, in spite of the "kidnapper's" dire warning. She knew John wouldn't be able to confront her with all those people around. Plus she probably could not stand the thought of not getting maximum attention and sympathy from the scenario she had invented, and of course she knew there were no real kidnappers to worry about.

I hadn't really thought of the attempt to schedule the plane being so that John could confront her, but now that I do, it makes alot of sense.
 
[

Although not 100% convinced of which Ramsey did it, this is the theory I lean most strongly toward as well.

My thought is that John was not even part of the cover up that morning. I think he was buying it until he saw the Ransom Encyclopedia.....uh I mean note, and he realized Patsy had written it. He may have still been putting it together in his mind that morning.

One thing that has always struck me was the Emotional distance between John and Patsy the morning of the 26th. We have all seen missing children cases where divorced parents clung to each other when realizing their child was missing. I mean, really, who else is going to fully comprehend what you are feeling besides the other parent?

Yet by all accounts, they spent no time together, and did not even speak. That is just weird even for them. However, if you assume one parent is really, really angry and the other feels really, really guilty, it makes a lot of sense.

It also goes toward explaining Patsy's need to call half the city of Boulder to come over that morning, in spite of the "kidnapper's" dire warning. She knew John wouldn't be able to confront her with all those people around. Plus she probably could not stand the thought of not getting maximum attention and sympathy from the scenario she had invented, and of course she knew there were no real kidnappers to worry about.

I hadn't really thought of the attempt to schedule the plane being so that John could confront her, but now that I do, it makes alot of sense.

I've been married over 20 years and while this theory has merit, I just don't think it fits typical marriage behavior. To me, it seems like neither of them could stand being around each other and were emotionally very distant that morning. In my experience they were acting the way married people act when they've had a huge fight but then have to appear normal in public.

To expand on the morning thing, it's also been my experience that fights where you are that distant with each other don't happen that quickly. Usually that kind of emotional distance means a fight that is over time, sniping and arguing until you ultimately start ignoring each other. The timeline doesn't support such a long fight. If I remember right Patsy found the note, called the police within 10 minutes and the cops and their friends pretty much arrived at the same time, minutes after the call. There wasn't enough time for the Ramseys to get that emotionally distant with each other.
 
[

Although not 100% convinced of which Ramsey did it, this is the theory I lean most strongly toward as well.

My thought is that John was not even part of the cover up that morning. I think he was buying it until he saw the Ransom Encyclopedia.....uh I mean note, and he realized Patsy had written it. He may have still been putting it together in his mind that morning.

One thing that has always struck me was the Emotional distance between John and Patsy the morning of the 26th. We have all seen missing children cases where divorced parents clung to each other when realizing their child was missing. I mean, really, who else is going to fully comprehend what you are feeling besides the other parent?

Yet by all accounts, they spent no time together, and did not even speak. That is just weird even for them. However, if you assume one parent is really, really angry and the other feels really, really guilty, it makes a lot of sense.

It also goes toward explaining Patsy's need to call half the city of Boulder to come over that morning, in spite of the "kidnapper's" dire warning. She knew John wouldn't be able to confront her with all those people around. Plus she probably could not stand the thought of not getting maximum attention and sympathy from the scenario she had invented, and of course she knew there were no real kidnappers to worry about.

I hadn't really thought of the attempt to schedule the plane being so that John could confront her, but now that I do, it makes alot of sense.

All the points you listed above are the same conclusions I've come to. In the beginning I was on the fence about what happened. Over the years it seemed apparent the Ramseys were involved but I couldn't put together a logical scene and sequence based on information available publicly. Only this past week have I concluded Patsy did it and John was not involved, knowingly, until after they left that house and he had a chance to confront Patsy.

I think John probably did know that Patsy took extreme measures in coercing JonBenet to bend to Patsy's will but I doubt he believed JonBenet would be physically hurt by Patsy's actions.

Every piece of information fits the puzzle except for one. I am still not committed to John's part in this except I think it was basically keeping his mouth shut, furnishing money for top-notch lawyers, then taking over when he figured out what happened and furthermore realized Patsy was becoming the Mouth of the South about the case. Perhaps he was more heavily involved but I don't see that ... yet.

I haven't found a flaw in Steve Thomas's theory even though I've tried.

I also still sit on the fence with what James Kolar is trying to tell us. Imo, he is either saying Burke is involved in the actual death of JonBenet or else he is showing that Burke was subject to the same treatment JonBenet received and was also a victim and without Burke's statements the case will be hopelessly a big question mark.

I am fairly certain, but not positive, that incest was a part of their family dynamic but I can't decide on who did what and how that affected the night JonBenet died.

I have no dog in this race except the one running for justice.
 
But but but.....the touch DNA proves that the Ramseys are innocent! Because there were skin flakes on JBR's clothes from SIX other people. So those guys are the real killers. Not the Ramseys.

Just because they are and I saw it on TV. So there.
 
All the points you listed above are the same conclusions I've come to. In the beginning I was on the fence about what happened. Over the years it seemed apparent the Ramseys were involved but I couldn't put together a logical scene and sequence based on information available publicly. Only this past week have I concluded Patsy did it and John was not involved, knowingly, until after they left that house and he had a chance to confront Patsy.

I think John probably did know that Patsy took extreme measures in coercing JonBenet to bend to Patsy's will but I doubt he believed JonBenet would be physically hurt by Patsy's actions.

Every piece of information fits the puzzle except for one. I am still not committed to John's part in this except I think it was basically keeping his mouth shut, furnishing money for top-notch lawyers, then taking over when he figured out what happened and furthermore realized Patsy was becoming the Mouth of the South about the case. Perhaps he was more heavily involved but I don't see that ... yet.

I haven't found a flaw in Steve Thomas's theory even though I've tried.

I also still sit on the fence with what James Kolar is trying to tell us. Imo, he is either saying Burke is involved in the actual death of JonBenet or else he is showing that Burke was subject to the same treatment JonBenet received and was also a victim and without Burke's statements the case will be hopelessly a big question mark.

I am fairly certain, but not positive, that incest was a part of their family dynamic but I can't decide on who did what and how that affected the night JonBenet died.

I have no dog in this race except the one running for justice.

Regards BR, and whether he was also subject to some kind of abuse, I tend not to think of sexual abuse, but abuse in general. When I read about BR’s toileting problems, not just bedwetting, but also evidence of soiling (Kolar reports that large pajama bottoms assumed to be BR’s were found in JB’s bedroom, with fecal matter), I’m left wondering, was JB the only one PR punished about this. As a reminder, the housekeeper said that PR would take JB into the bathroom and lots of screaming and yelling would take place. From what I’ve understood about encopresis, it may be a medical issue, from constipation and never having the time to be on a schedule. It can also be a sign of abuse. And it may also be a psychological demonstration of anger. From what’s been written about BR, he seemed pretty normal to his friends and teachers. Grades were fine. So, was it just in the home that this anger came out? We’ve never heard whether PR punished BR harshly for toileting issues, but I have to assume she did.

Recently, to give myself more knowledge about incest, I’ve read Marilyn Van Derbur Atler’s book on recovering her life after the sexual abuse from her father from the age of 5 through 18 until she went to college. One of the very interesting items brought out in the book is that many who were incested by a father, sibling, or even someone outside the family, were extremely angry with their mother for not preventing the abuse. It may be that JB was “acting out” more frequently with PR, not solely on the basis of the Pageants? Lastly, it took Marilyn Van Derbur Atler until she was in her mid-20’s, before she could admit to the abuse. For some people it’s even a longer journey. Maybe BR will be able to face some things as he gets older. We can only hope. moo
 
I've wondered about the bottoms assumed to be BR's.

I wonder if possibly Burke wet the bed, came out of his room to find someone to change his sheets during his sister's murder. A parent tells him to get back in his room, when he says his bed is wet he's told to go into JB's and not come out until he's told to. He takes not being allowed to come out completely literally even when he needs the toilet and soils himself as a result. I recall hearing there was excrement in the bed?
 
[

Although not 100% convinced of which Ramsey did it, this is the theory I lean most strongly toward as well.

My thought is that John was not even part of the cover up that morning. I think he was buying it until he saw the Ransom Encyclopedia.....uh I mean note, and he realized Patsy had written it. He may have still been putting it together in his mind that morning.

Reading this jogged a thought out of me, something that might explain one of those questions about JR's behavior that morning with the house full of friends and strangers.

JR handed the actual writing pad over to LE on which the ransom note had been written, practice notes and all. He did so to give LE a requested "sample" of Patsy's writing.

Many have pondered why JR would hand over such a note if he knew it was the source for the ransom note. Some think this is evidence JR didn't know JB was dead in the basement at the hands of Patsy and/or Burke.

But it just occurred to me JR didn't write the ransom note, did he? Well, I believe Patsy wrote it, start to finish, so I should start with that.

Patsy had a pack of those yellow, lined notepads, where she kept her lists for groceries, things to do, etc. If Patsy wrote the note and JR was focused on other issues while she was doing that (I can imagine a hundred things that could have been preoccupying him as they prepared for the con job of their lives (like talking to lawyers on a later "missing" cell phone; but I digress), perhaps when JR reached for that pad on the hall table where Patsy kept it he just wasn't aware that she used the middle pages of that notepad with her own handwriting on the top ones.

Well, it's a thought, anyway.

One thing that has always struck me was the Emotional distance between John and Patsy the morning of the 26th. We have all seen missing children cases where divorced parents clung to each other when realizing their child was missing. I mean, really, who else is going to fully comprehend what you are feeling besides the other parent?

Yet by all accounts, they spent no time together, and did not even speak. That is just weird even for them. However, if you assume one parent is really, really angry and the other feels really, really guilty, it makes a lot of sense.

It also goes toward explaining Patsy's need to call half the city of Boulder to come over that morning, in spite of the "kidnapper's" dire warning. She knew John wouldn't be able to confront her with all those people around. Plus she probably could not stand the thought of not getting maximum attention and sympathy from the scenario she had invented, and of course she knew there were no real kidnappers to worry about.

I hadn't really thought of the attempt to schedule the plane being so that John could confront her, but now that I do, it makes alot of sense.

Of course one guess is as good as another on this topic, but I believe JR was in on it from the head blow, at least.

I can give many reasons, but for brevity I'll say that finding his dead daughter in the basement and bringing her upstairs like a My Twinn doll is a major tip off for me.

Arguments about "who knows what you'd do" aside, the entire "finding of the body" by JR so late in the day and Patsy's "raise her from the dead like Lazarus" performance were as contrived to me as the original plan to have LE find the body early on--which is a major reason I think "friends" were called over, as well, for a buffer to confuse and overwhelm LE while helping the Ramseys "in their grief" when the body was found, including getting Burke out of the house, etc.

By the time it was clear LE wasn't going to find the body, the Ramseys were winging it. Both were fully capable of doing whatever they needed to do to get out of dodge that awful day, IMO, but neither were professional actors with those kinds of impeccable improvisation skills. Patsy could act the heck out of a rehearsed performance (she won or placed high in state and national championships as a teen, after all, not to mention a Miss American scholarship for her quickly composed and performed talent entry); but on the fly she over-did it by far.

Well, these are my thoughts, that's all. I do agree that they deliberately stayed away from each other that morning, but I wonder if it had more to do with not wanting to give away that things hadn't gone as planned and they were trying to conceal so much chaos going on inside them while waiting for the other shoe to drop.
 
Patsy killed JonBenet deliberately. No one else was involved. There was no staging for police. Everything that was done was done by Patsy for Patsy as part of a psychotic fantasy revolving around an imagined relationship with a supernatural being, the fear of judgment by that God and the fear of death. What people mistakingly take as staging for police had symbolic meaning known only to Patsy. This includes the ransom note. There were two aspects to what was done to the body: the ligatures were suspension devices, the body was posed and viewed and then taken down, placed in the small room, wrapped and the duct tape applied to set the kidnapping scene up in Patsy's mind. The ransom note is full of the ideas that swirled in Patsy's mind that night and plagued her for many years.

The goal was not to kill JonBenet but to make an Angel out of her.

Patsy herself said after the funeral "JonBenet is in Heaven with God awaiting her mother's arrival and it won't be long." Patsy put JonBenet in that heaven to complete the fantasy and in her mind assure her life after death.

As the dedication in DOI says:

Wherever we go ...
Whatever we do ...
[We're gonna go through it together ...]
 
Blue Bottle, I have heard you say this before. I just wondered if you could explain how you developed this theory. I was thinking your psychological training or religious beliefs or maybe work with cancer patients. I was just wondering.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing. I just think it is an interesting take you have on JBR murder.
 

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