Sidebar Discussion #9

[bayouland]

What we are forgetting is that prior to July 16 2008 OCA was not known as a Liar, a few people close to her realized she exaggerated but no one knew the extent of her lies so she did have credibility

LE did not know she was a Liar, the State Attorneys office did not know she was a liar.
If she made any attempt to complain (LE, school counselor, teacher, Principal, friend or a friends parents...anyone she felt comfortable with) about the abuse by Lee and George IMO she would have been believed...

But regardless IF the abuse is true or not...IMO OCA is solely responsible for the death of her daughter.

O/T but a personal experience with false accusations of sexual abuse
A few years ago my best friends daughter accused her step-father of molesting her...it was reported it to local Orlando authorities and she was pulled out of the house in the blink of an eye and the investigation began....She was ultimately allowed to go back home but the father had to move out.
What was the result? She LIED. Why? She was getting back at him because he wouldn't let her have her way like her mother did.

I do understand and I don't believe her either. And yes, if this were true, she had many opportunities to rat her dad out......and I feel she would have. Casey is a talker and she would have talked. JMO.

Having said that, there is something bizarre and "off" with George. I would love to read a psych report on him. Does that mean he is a molester? Absolutely not but he seems sneaky to me like he is hiding something. What?? I have no idea.

 

[krkrjx]

Whatever did or did not happen to FCA (and I can't believe a word she or her advocates say) pales in comparison to what definitely happened to Caylee, the actual victim in this case. If FCA sincerely wants to press charges and have her own day in court, she should go to town, that is her legal right. But the derailment of the case pertaining to Caylee being suddenly dead at age 2 is despicable. And all the nonsense we heard, the pseudo-Freudian rubbish about amnesia and seizures and memory flahbacks and Caseyland belong in some C-grade low budget psychological thriller from the 1940's, not in a 2011 courtroom.

We all saw the facial expressions of FCA and JB when they got into that car after she was released. It was pure triumph that they had pulled off one of the biggest courtroom hustles of all time. And minutes later they were laughing about Zanny. LOL, they said. LOL LOL LOL.

I could not agree more!!

This whole sad case has been a game to the defense team. To them it was all about winning and nothing else. It was never about Caylee for them, not even for a minute. And it still isn't.

 

[logicalgirl]

I'll take wild guess here. She knows she doesn't need counseling because the abuse never happened. Baez likewise...

I think it's pretty hard for counseling to have any impact if the patient continues to lie to the therapist.

 

[okiedokietoo]

I do understand and I don't believe her either. And yes, if this were true, she had many opportunities to rat her dad out......and I feel she would have. Casey is a talker and she would have talked. JMO.

Having said that, there is something bizarre and "off" with George. I would love to read a psych report on him. Does that mean he is a molester? Absolutely not but he seems sneaky to me like he is hiding something. What?? I have no idea.

I think it's guilt about the online money scam, maybe an affair and for letting fca run the house. Guilt for lying to save his daughter from the death penalty which was in direct conflict with his love for Caylee and more guilt because he couldn't save Caylee, Caylee was gone and he didn't want his daughter gone too.

 

[krkrjx]

I do understand and I don't believe her either. And yes, if this were true, she had many opportunities to rat her dad out......and I feel she would have. Casey is a talker and she would have talked. JMO.

Having said that, there is something bizarre and "off" with George. I would love to read a psych report on him. Does that mean he is a molester? Absolutely not but he seems sneaky to me like he is hiding something. What?? I have no idea.

George comes off as icky to a lot of people. I personally think he is easily misunderstood, but that's just because I know how that can happen to people...

Baez et al. are using the fact that George comes off as not likeable to promote their abuse claims. That's really all there is to it. IMO they would have demanded George be investigated for sexual abuse of a minor if they really believed he did that.

 

[logicalgirl]

I do understand and I don't believe her either. And yes, if this were true, she had many opportunities to rat her dad out......and I feel she would have. Casey is a talker and she would have talked. JMO.

Having said that, there is something bizarre and "off" with George. I would love to read a psych report on him. Does that mean he is a molester? Absolutely not but he seems sneaky to me like he is hiding something. What?? I have no idea.

Well, he has an overblown sense of pride and I suppose he was a good looking man when he was young, and some men base their manhood on their ability to provide for their family. So he may have gotten a lot of attention from women, and we know he was a failure as a provider and there was a rumour he'd gambled or invested a lot of money in one of those online schemes and lost the whole thing. So I think being a non-achiever was hard on his ego. Plus living with the whole world watching and pointing fingers at his family he was so proud of. His daughter killed his grand daughter and then he was accused of at least being a pervert if not a pedophile. I think he had good reason to look a little "off".

Or the other question is - just how does one look with a daughter who is a murderer, a grand daughter who has been murdered, a wife who is lying, and you and your son have been accused of sexually abusing your daughter and your grand daughter. And you are living in the middle of a media firestorm. What does that person look like anyway???

 

[logicalgirl]

I think it's guilt about the online money scam, maybe an affair and for letting fca run the house. Guilt for lying to save his daughter from the death penalty which was in direct conflict with his love for Caylee and more guilt because he couldn't save Caylee, Caylee was gone and he didn't want his daughter gone too.

I completely agree with you except for the last sentence. "Caylee was dead and he didn't want his daughter dead too."

 

[sleutherontheside]

http://www.jeffreydanzigermd.com/Pages/Forensic.aspx

 

[logicalgirl]

Speaking of Baez and being led down the garden path by his accusations - here's one garden path I haven't been paying any attention today to.

At 7:00Pm Pacific West Coast time: arty:

Amazon Sales Rank #646
Mayhem: #17
Criminal Law: #3


:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: Rock on our faithful reviewers!!! 2.5*!

 

[miss plum]

#646 in books, #17 in mayhem, #1 in pwned :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh:


Oopsie, didn't realize LG had already posted these fabulous, heartwarming stats!

 

[bayouland]

George comes off as icky to a lot of people. I personally think he is easily misunderstood, but that's just because I know how that can happen to people...

Baez et al. are using the fact that George comes off as not likeable to promote their abuse claims. That's really all there is to it. IMO they would have demanded George be investigated for sexual abuse of a minor if they really believed he did that.

BBM. Yes, the abuse claims are or the radar and are serving as a temporary distraction to the real story....

:banghead:

Guess I will leave George alone......

 

[missm]

Pcrum12:
Here is my take on the abuse allegations. I too am a sexual abuse survivor.Apologies in advance for this epic post, get a cushion for your arse, LOL.

When the story first broke, I also thought to myself, "something is seriously off-kilter in that family, I would suspect some sort of sexual abuse going on." There are many, many traits in that family to be sure, clustered together they are very disturbing:

- a domineering female with a weak male relationship dynamic
- a perfectionist mother who is preoccupied with appearances of propriety- her home, her family relationships, so dellusional and living in another stratosphere of reality to the point of not SEEING her daughter's pregnancy at 7 months... and the woman is even a nurse!
- the male seeking to satisfy sexual urges outside the marriage through use of pornography and pursuing casual relationships and escort services; this implies his intimate relationship with his spouse has degraded completely, he seeks a sexual outlet that makes him feel in control, masculine (as opposed to defeated in his marriage) and powerful
- additional addiction issues within the family (gambling, I would also wonder about porn addiction too)
- FCA's thefts: it is quite common for abuse victims to steal from the abuser or those within the family that have failed to protect them. Sometimes it is a conscious decision to "make them pay", sometimes it is very subtle- a way of taking something back. I did this myself as a kid, though unconsciously. I felt entitled to sneak things from my abusers house- little dumb things like a bar of soap or a book, "just because".
-promiscuity. If you are only "good for one thing" as they say, then that's the attention you will seek
- the outrageous lying, a cry for attention, a feeling of what does it matter, nobody sees reality anyways... a million reasons to explain why victims do it

You are right when you say that the only people who will ever truly know what went on are GA & FCA. I waiver back and forth sometimes on the allegations, I too was an exceptional "faker" with many friends, did great in school, my family looked just perfect to outsiders. Inside was another story that I hid from everyone: an eating disorder, severe depression and at my lowest point long after I moved out and did years of therapy, I was suicidal.

That last bit is where I come back to, when I waiver. Because no matter what, the abuse takes it's toll on you and it comes out. The human soul is not equipped to deal with this kind of emotional suffering stuffed down like a cork in a bottle. I did not fully remember all parts of the abuse, and it STILL came out in these powerful, life altering ways. I believe FCA was coached into the abuse excuse, there could be no better plan than to put forth something that could only come down to her word against his, an unspeakable taboo crime that society feels so strongly about, in attempt to justify or explain her behaviour. The seeds were already there- a deeply disturbed and very weird family everyone was already whispering about, the public was already wondering if LA might even be the father. The FBI even did DNA tests, it certainly occurred to them too, to investigate! Baez paid attention to the rumours in the media, saw his golden defense opportunity and just ran with it. It was basically an unprovable allegation that could explain her craziness AND focus to put the blame on somebody else. Two birds, one stone.

The bottom line is that it is so unusual, so out of the ordinary it is almost unheard of to have a victim mother leave her child in the company of her abuser. It really almost never happens. I too loved my abuser- he was my favourite person in my family, I would have done anything for him and sung his praises as a kid- he was the only one who paid attention to me and favoured me. But there is NO WAY I would have ever left a child with him, if I was a mother. Yet there is scores of testimony that FCA did this, many, many times. This one thing is so huge it practically outweighs much of everything else no matter how severely dysfunctional and how many abusive traits the family has. FCA was coached. Dr Danziger's deposition, his professional expertise after interviewing her multiple times, and his ethical agony at putting into the record something he truly did not believe speaks volumes, and IMHO coupled with FCA leaving Caylee with GA, and the fortuitous timing of FCA's "memories" and odd text-booky vernacular of narrative phrases like "I guess I was compartmentalizing" just rings totally false in my guts.

Sorry for such a loooooong post, but I have wanted to get all of the above of my chest for a long time now, and replying to your post made it the right time for me to finally do so!

 

[TorisMom003]

Hubby and I went into our nearby "big town" today to go to the museum. Hubby wanted to stop by Barnes and Noble to see if they had a book that he wanted. I checked to see if they had Jose's book in stock. They did, 1 copy and it was priced at $26.95. I told the sales clerk it was much to expensive for a book of fiction that was being billed and sold as a non-fiction book. They have had the one copy since the book became available, can't seem to sell it.

 

[TotallyObsessed]

MissM ....I applaude you. What an amazing post and so well said.

 

[missm]

I also wanted to add one last thing-

I know what sexual abuse can do to a person's life, the damage it causes is really murdering a child's soul. Until you live it yourself, nobody really understands what an impact it makes on every aspect of a life. It changes the very fabric of who you are.

Now this is probably pretty awful, but on the tiniest, slightest "if" it really DID happen, and IF all of the things she claims are true.... well, all I can say is what poetic justice. The ONE time she tells the biggest truth in her entire life about something so profoundly serious and awful, and finally, nobody believes her.

How fitting. That would be a life sentence in itself, and would surely haunt her till the day she dies. And she would deserve every individual nanosecond of it, IMHO.

No pity, no mercy.

 

[Nore]

I don't think Casey ever considered that ABC payment as taxable but Baez, as an attorney, should have known taxes would be due. But ya know what? I don't think he did! I do not see Baez as very intelligent. JMO.

---------------
Hi, wasnt Baez paid 80,000. out of that money? I could swear he was. This was the first money, from ABC way back when. First stack of Caylees pictures. IMO:seeya:

 

[okiedokietoo]

She's - a - SOCIOPATH

http://www.healthguidance.org/entry/15850/1/Characteristics-of-a-Sociopath.html
Qualities of a Sociopath
Someone who is described as a sociopath will have several traits that set them apart from those with no personality disorders. These traits include the following..
• Lack of empathy – Inability to feel sympathy for others or to understand the emotional consequences of their actions
----her calm voice at universal talking to detectives about her child that has been missing for 31 days & her calm voice on the 911 call about protesters outside the house
• Cold, calculating nature – The ability and willingness to use others around them to personal gain
----stealing from Amy, Grandma & Grandpa, And throwing everyone under the bus, ZG, ZG & sister, JG, RK, maybe RM because of his chloroform pic, some people that will hurt the family if she calls LE, RK, GA
• Charming – While the sociopath is unable to fully understand the emotions of others, they are capable but rather highly adept at mimicking them and might appear to be charming and normal at first
----which explains to me how all of these people have been sucked into her vortex, especially the men
• Sensitive to criticism – That said, like all narcissists, the sociopath will desire the approval of others and will be highly sensitive to criticisms. They often feel they deserve adulation and admiration of the world and might feel victimized
----jail visition "fit", trial "fit" when angry at JB
• Compulsive lying – As part of their facade, and as a means to an end, sociopaths are compulsive liars and will rarely speak truthfully making them hard to pin down
----everything that she has said that we know about - Caylee's father died in accident, no raped at party, no maybe brother, dreamed it was father, must have been father, oh yeal it was father.....
IMOO - GA did not molest her and he did not molest Caylee
She's a sociopath & child murderer

 

[logicalgirl]

She's - a - SOCIOPATH

http://www.healthguidance.org/entry/15850/1/Characteristics-of-a-Sociopath.html
Qualities of a Sociopath
Someone who is described as a sociopath will have several traits that set them apart from those with no personality disorders. These traits include the following..
• Lack of empathy – Inability to feel sympathy for others or to understand the emotional consequences of their actions
----her calm voice at universal talking to detectives about her child that has been missing for 31 days & her calm voice on the 911 call about protesters outside the house
• Cold, calculating nature – The ability and willingness to use others around them to personal gain
----stealing from Amy, Grandma & Grandpa, And throwing everyone under the bus, ZG, ZG & sister, JG, RK, maybe RM because of his chloroform pic, some people that will hurt the family if she calls LE, RK, GA
• Charming – While the sociopath is unable to fully understand the emotions of others, they are capable but rather highly adept at mimicking them and might appear to be charming and normal at first
----which explains to me how all of these people have been sucked into her vortex, especially the men
• Sensitive to criticism – That said, like all narcissists, the sociopath will desire the approval of others and will be highly sensitive to criticisms. They often feel they deserve adulation and admiration of the world and might feel victimized
----jail visition "fit", trial "fit" when angry at JB
• Compulsive lying – As part of their facade, and as a means to an end, sociopaths are compulsive liars and will rarely speak truthfully making them hard to pin down
----everything that she has said that we know about - Caylee's father died in accident, no raped at party, no maybe brother, dreamed it was father, must have been father, oh yeal it was father.....
IMOO - GA did not molest her and he did not molest Caylee
She's a sociopath & child murderer

Thank you Okiedokietoo - I read missm's powerful life story and went away to think about it, because it didn't feel appropriate to debate the abuse issue right then.
The description of the Anthony family fits the abuse theory - if indeed that was an accurate description of them. I agree that's the way they appear. But the behaviors in the Anthony family also fits the one that lives with a sociopathic family member. They walk on eggshells because they never know when the sociopath will react with a terrible anger. Knowing who FCA is - the abuse scenario just couldn't and didn't happen.

It's amazing and it just makes me feel plain tired. We are all a product of our upbringing and no matter how much therapy and counselling we have, those seeds of pain inside are never completely erased. Oh, we can correct our social behaviors to fit in with society - but there will always be those one or two lightening rods that connect with those points and we feel it all over again.

 

[CarolinaMoon]

Thank you Okiedokietoo - I read missm's powerful life story and went away to think about it, because it didn't feel appropriate to debate the abuse issue right then.
The description of the Anthony family fits the abuse theory - if indeed that was an accurate description of them. I agree that's the way they appear. But the behaviors in the Anthony family also fits the one that lives with a sociopathic family member. They walk on eggshells because they never know when the sociopath will react with a terrible anger. Knowing who FCA is - the abuse scenario just couldn't and didn't happen.

It's amazing and it just makes me feel plain tired. We are all a product of our upbringing and no matter how much therapy and counselling we have, those seeds of pain inside are never completely erased. Oh, we can correct our social behaviors to fit in with society - but there will always be those one or two lightening rods that connect with those points and we feel it all over again.

Having lived with an undiagnosed person (PBD? Paranoid Schitzophrenic? Psychopath?) She once wrote me a letter in which she stated, "I now know that everything I believe is true." That was from a person I have kept out of my life for nearly 30 years! She tries to stalk me on the internet, forcing me to hide my true identity. Relatives she asks claim they don't have any information on me. So far, she' BELIEVES I am RICH! She BELIEVES my sister and I murdered our cancer-ridden father! She BELIEVES my husband is a fraud, even though she's never met him! She BELIEVES it is my responsibility to support her.

As we've gone through the Anthony Agony, I have to wonder if she's like my relative and has similar beliefs?

If SHE believes it, it's TRUE!

 

[kaki]

Speaking of Baez and being led down the garden path by his accusations - here's one garden path I haven't been paying any attention today to.

At 7:00Pm Pacific West Coast time: arty:

Amazon Sales Rank #646
Mayhem: #17
Criminal Law: #3


:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: Rock on our faithful reviewers!!! 2.5*!

Down to 20 in mayhem category... 5 starers out in full force again this morning professing Baezs brilliance...and how they cant put the book down.
Everyday we hit a new low...:woohoo: