Something that has been bugging me... (WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT)

[txsvicki]

But, what about Kolar and Steve Thomas believing that John didn't catch on until later in the morning?

 

[Anyhoo]

But, what about Kolar and Steve Thomas believing that John didn't catch on until later in the morning?

No way. I believe that at the time the 911 call was made that both JR and PR knew their daughter was dead and also knew where she was at that point. JR was a conspirator along with his wife. One would have to be blind not to realize that.

 

[Sandstorm]

But, what about Kolar and Steve Thomas believing that John didn't catch on until later in the morning?

I am confused by your statement -
Are you saying that Kolar and Thomas thought that John Ramsey did not know JB was dead?
or
Are you saying that John Ramsey thought the investigators did not suspect him until later in the morning?

If you read both of the books by Kolar and Thomas you will know that they unequically suspected John and Patsy from the get-go especially once John brought JB's body up from the basement.
That was when the red alert sounded loud and clear.

 

[txsvicki]

I went and researched just to make sure of my memory and what I had read in the past. This may be wrong or have changed by now, but I found a quote of Steve's saying that John awoke innocent and quickly got trapped into protecting Patsy. I'm not sure Kolar felt the same way, but could swear it was discussed last year.

 

[dodie20]

I went and researched just to make sure of my memory and what I had read in the past. This may be wrong or have changed by now, but I found a quote of Steve's saying that John awoke innocent and quickly got trapped into protecting Patsy. I'm not sure Kolar felt the same way, but could swear it was discussed last year.

You're right. In a Larry King interview I linked the other day, ST talked about giving JR a pass. This doesn't mean they didn't suspect him and investigate him, because based on what I've read, they went over him with a fine toothed comb, but there was nothing there. I don't know what they made of JR's fibers in JB's underwear? But, even though they seemed to think he woke up an innocent man, the grand jury saw things a little differently. MOO

 

[gramcracker]

Exactly. All I see is viciousness. And considering there was evidence of 'undoing', this being staging makes even less sense. I mean why would somebody undo, just to turn around and stage something so brutal? IMO, they don't jibe with each other. all moo.

two people with differing motives/agendas/mindsets/abilities/boundaries?

 

[Tulessa]

Linda7NJ.................after reading you conclusions ... I have to agree. And I was one of those that thought they were innocent.

 

[madeleine]

I don't necessarily see it as a brutal pulling of the hair, I just think it was made in a panic and as she wasn't conscious, no need to be careful.

I know...still....it was their beloved child....they (or only one of them) felt guilty enough to wrap her in the blanket?
anyway...if the garotte thing was just staging (am not convinced) then IMO the stager is a pretty sick person...to choose something cruel like this ...would never cross my mind even if I'd be super panicked....why not something easier....just a cord or a scarf or something....it took TIME to break that stick and wrap the cord around it....something is not right with this....

 

[Pseudonymph]

Does anybody know if the injuries to her neck are consistent with dragging her by the rope? Hypothetically in a BDI scenario, he hits her head somehow, can't get her to wake up or stand up, can't carry her, so he puts a rope around her to try to move her somewhere. Maybe he even thought she was dead and he was trying to hide her so he wouldn't get in trouble. In that case it would fit more with a child's mindset. And the paintbrush is a handle for dragging.

Then his parent catches him and they begin the cover-up.

 

[madeleine]

the garotte has always been the piece of evidence that bothered me the most...okay,I can get that you write a RN to point the fingers at someone else...I can get that you wipe off the body to mislead the cops and remove evidence of assault....but to break sticks and wrapping cords around them and then put it around your childs neck (dead or alive,doesn't even matter)??that's beyond SICK.makes the stager sicker than the killer.this is something that will ALWAYS bug me.

 

[madeleine]

Does anybody know if the injuries to her neck are consistent with dragging her by the rope? Hypothetically in a BDI scenario, he hits her head somehow, can't get her to wake up or stand up, can't carry her, so he puts a rope around her to try to move her somewhere. Maybe he even thought she was dead and he was trying to hide her so he wouldn't get in trouble. In that case it would fit more with a child's mindset. And the paintbrush is a handle for dragging.

Then his parent catches him and they begin the cover-up.

interesting point...but I've always wondered...IF the garotte was constructed/used by BR...why didn't the parents get rid of it?why leave it around her neck?makes no sense to me...

 

[wengr]

the garotte has always been the piece of evidence that bothered me the most...okay,I can get that you write a RN to point the fingers at someone else...I can get that you wipe off the body to mislead the cops and remove evidence of assault....but to break sticks and wrapping cords around them and then put it around your childs neck (dead or alive,doesn't even matter)??that's beyond SICK.makes the stager sicker than the killer.this is something that will ALWAYS bug me.

ITA. Very difficult to imagine an innocent parent tightening that faux garotte under any circumstances.

 

[wengr]

interesting point...but I've always wondered...IF the garotte was constructed/used by BR...why didn't the parents get rid of it?why leave it around her neck?makes no sense to me...

Possibly for the same reason that they would not do it -if it was obvious that she was dead maybe they would not even touch it.

 

[txsvicki]

If it weren't for the fibers found in the garrotte knot, I'd tend to think maybe a child could have done it all except wiping down and changing underwear after Patsy finding JonBenet up to 1.5 hours later. For that to happen, the kids might have been told to have a snack, go bed, and pretty much left to themselves. And, the parents not to have heard the loud cracking of the skull or heard any scream that might have happened before or during.

 

[chlban]

I do not know ALL of the evidence but the BR did it and PR and or JR covered it up, seems to fit when you look at the staging and the other evidence add on top a dysfunctional dynamic that would explain it all (especially the staging) perfectly IMO
I apologize that my post is not related directly to the weapon and picture posted by the thread starter and the discussion about it, I was just reading all the replies and wanted to add my thoughts

I agree. it really makes the most sense and always has. I have always been RDI but not quite convinced which R and usually found myself falling back on the Steve Thomas theory, or a slight variation of it, with Patsy losing control and "accidentally" causing the head wound and then following through with the rest of it in a very calculating manner.

There are still elements of this that make me lean toward that theory. Specifically the RN. I just have a hard time believing JR had a hand in that. I just think he is smarter than that. But, perhaps in the confusion and chaos she wrote the not without his full knowledge.

At any rate after the indictment pages were released I fell back on what now appears pretty obvious. BDI did it and the parents covered it up. I doubt they knew he couldn't be prosecuted. I mean, who has that kind of knowledge unless you are in LE or Law, why would you know that? So, once that lie was told, they just perpetuated it.

Addiitonally, I don't think it would have mattered to the R's even if they did have knowledge that he couldn't be prosecuted. They were too much about appearances and your son killing his little sister does not tend to point to outstanding parenting. If I wanted to give them a little credit (which I really don't, but) they could have also not wanted to ruin his life with the stigma.

Unfortunately, I think at this point, it is too late. There are an awful lot of people who believe he did it, and not just here on this board. I have many friends, co-workers, etc. who barely followed the case who will state they believe "the kid" did it and the parents covered for him. Burke will carry this stigma with him through life.

If, in fact, Steve Thomas was right, then JR should pretend to be a decent human being and tell the truth and clear his son. But, obviously, that "decent human being" part is a big obstacle.

 

[chlban]

wengr;9974348]ITA

Very difficult to imagine an innocent parent tightening that faux garotte under any circumstances.[/

I hate to think what this says about me but, sadly, I have no trouble picturing Patsy doing just that. John? Not sure. Less likely IMO. But I believe Patsy was all about appearances. She either truly thought JB was already dead, or realized that she was so badly injured that she would never recover and be normal (much less a little beauty queen) again, so she needed to stage and stage she did.

As far as using the garotte to stage? Overdramatic, unrealistic and overdone. It has Patsy written all over it IMO.

 

[txsvicki]

I will never ever believe that anyone thought JonBenet was dead from the head injury. Dying or brain damaged maybe, but not dead.

 

[Sandstorm]

wengr;9974348]ITA

I hate to think what this says about me but, sadly, I have no trouble picturing Patsy doing just that. John? Not sure. Less likely IMO. But I believe Patsy was all about appearances. She either truly thought JB was already dead, or realized that she was so badly injured that she would never recover and be normal (much less a little beauty queen) again, so she needed to stage and stage she did.

As far as using the garotte to stage? Overdramatic, unrealistic and overdone. It has Patsy written all over it IMO.

I see your view, however, as a Mom, I dont think PR was the leader in staging. JR was the dominate partner in the relationship which makes me think that once JonBenet was murdered, that JR took control of the situation to cover it up. I imagine him taking full control and telling PR to get a grip on herself if she wanted to save BR. I think it is more likely that she did the soft staging, ie, the ramsom note, while JR did the hard staging, ie, direct contact with JonBenet's body, excluding the vigina trauma. Of course, all of this is merely my opinion.

 

[chlban]

Sandstorm;9974959

I see your view, however, as a Mom, I dont think PR was the leader in staging. JR was the dominate partner in the relationship which makes me think that once JonBenet was murdered, that JR took control of the situation to cover it up. I imagine him taking full control and telling PR to get a grip on herself if she wanted to save BR. I think it is more likely that she did the soft staging, ie, the ramsom note, while JR did the hard staging, ie, direct contact with JonBenet's body, excluding the vigina trauma. Of course, all of this is merely my opinion

That would explain the RN. As I said, I cannot imagine that JR saw that ahead of time, it was just so "out there" and so very Patsy.

The irony is that if they wanted to protect Burke from the stigma following him thorugh life, they actually did the exact opposite with their lies and staging.

If they had just told the truth no one would be even discussing this case today. It might have gotten a minimum coverage on the National news, might not have even gotten that, and would have died away like so many stories
Most people would not even remember the story today. How many "officially" Solved cases are even discussed unless there is an appeal, retrial or something of that nature, which could not have happened in this case as there could have been no prosecution.

 

[Sandstorm]

quote Chlban:
At any rate after the indictment pages were released I fell back on what now appears pretty obvious. BDI did it and the parents covered it up. I doubt they knew he couldn't be prosecuted. I mean, who has that kind of knowledge unless you are in LE or Law, why would you know that? So, once that lie was told, they just perpetuated it.

Addiitonally, I don't think it would have mattered to the R's even if they did have knowledge that he couldn't be prosecuted. They were too much about appearances and your son killing his little sister does not tend to point to outstanding parenting.
******************************************************************************
Chlban,
I highlighted the essense of your post which is the condensed version of the entire murder of JonBenet Ramsey. IMO
Thank you for your excellent summary;
I totally concur.