sub shows Brokeback Mtn to 8th graders

  • #141
I have been reading this thread and just now decided to jump in. It is irrelevant that this was a movie about homosexuality but that's really why some people are upset about it. God forbid we should admit homosexuality exisits. My beef with showing this movie is that it was R rated and that's the only reason whay folks should be upset about it. This is the MPAA rating for it: Rated R for sexuality, nudity, language and some violence. Of couse I don't recall any nudity in it but if they say it had it then I belive them. Not saying that you are all upset b/c of the homosexuality in it but thats the vibe I got from the Fox folks and all. So don't think I mean ya'll!

The breasts of Anne Hathaway and Michelle Williams come to mind.

I'm sure some people were upset because of the homosexual subject matter, but plenty (you and me, for example) seem upset that you just don't show an R rated movie in school to kids this age.

Either way you slice it, the sub made a terrible decision!
 
  • #142
It's because of the homosexual subject matter that it made the news. Trust me, I am quite sure that other 8th graders have been shown "R" rated movies and it has not made the national news.

This is just an extra twist.
 
  • #143
The breasts of Anne Hathaway and Michelle Williams come to mind.

I'm sure some people were upset because of the homosexual subject matter, but plenty (you and me, for example) seem upset that you just don't show an R rated movie in school to kids this age.

Either way you slice it, the sub made a terrible decision!

Yeah, I forgot that and asked my husband later where the nudity was. It has been 2 years since we saw the movie.
 
  • #144
I believe I've read everything Annie Proulx has published, at least in book form. I first read the Brokeback novella (you can easily read it in one sitting) and was so thrilled by the quality of the writing, I just kept reading.

Is the "Bob Dollar" book Ace in the Hole? I loved that and Shipping News as well. Accordion Tales is also very interesting: it's really about the immigrant experience, but it follows each owner of an accordion transported from Sicily to the U.S.

I'm speculating the same as you are (and I may be being unfair to Love_Mama), but my interpretation of her "PC" remark was that anything that is at all sympathetic to homosexuals must be a case of "liberal" political correctness. If I understood her correctly, considering that both men suffer enormously in both versions of the Brokeback tale, her "PC" appraisal is pretty funny.

Yes, it's That Old Ace in the Hole - I found my self cackling alot when I read it, the style was just so ______??? Dry humor??? Satire, irony? You see, it's been quite awhile since I was in college. Do you know I got distracted and didn't finish the book - maybe I will now.

So Brokeback is quick - maybe I'll read it then; I found it poignant. Like a Tragedy. An ironic tragedy, like Shakespeare. Am I right?

Thanks for the tip on Accordian - I didn't like the Shipping News too much, did you? I'm going to do alot of reading this summer.

I have a great idea!!!! Maybe we could start a thread on plays and great books, and musicals, and you could teach us some things. I would love that!!!!!! Like when I go to New York City, I have no idea which plays are really good. Also we have alot of plays around here. Some of them are great, like the Buddy Holly Story, and then I saw a "Mamet" play; I saw West Side Story; it was great - it's amazing how the locals can put on a great performance. Actually, people come from all over to perform here.

Actually, I consider Brokeback Mountain and Far From Heaven (Dennis Quaid) to both be more like plays than movies.

Oh, have you ever read Sarah Bird? She lives around here (The Flamenco Academy);Yakota Officer's Club, Alamo House.

She's really witty, writes for Texas Monthly. I know her, and she's "something else". Sorry this post is so long!!!!
 
  • #145
Oh, by the way Nova - I realize that I am often tempted to be "transgressive", at Websleuths, ESPECIALLY, on the PP. he he

The only "trans"es I ever knew were "transfatty acids", and "transsexual", or "transdressing", or transcendental meditation.

Now I see that "trans" must mean "cross", and "gressive" must mean "going or moving"
 
  • #146
I have been reading this thread and just now decided to jump in. It is irrelevant that this was a movie about homosexuality but that's really why some people are upset about it. God forbid we should admit homosexuality exisits. My beef with showing this movie is that it was R rated and that's the only reason whay folks should be upset about it. This is the MPAA rating for it: Rated R for sexuality, nudity, language and some violence. Of couse I don't recall any nudity in it but if they say it had it then I belive them. Not saying that you are all upset b/c of the homosexuality in it but thats the vibe I got from the Fox folks and all. So don't think I mean ya'll!

2, I think nearly everyone here has been clear that homosexuality, per se, isn't the issue. Certainly I don't think it's a subject that must be kept from 12-year-olds (who have already heard plenty on the playground, unfortunately). My 15-year-old niece is well aware that her uncles are in a loving, committed relationship, but she has no interest in sexual details and I see no reason why I would share those with her at any age.

I'm with you and everyone else here that no teacher should be showing R-rated movies to 12-year-olds. (Maybe there's an exception out there, but even for that, parental consent should be obtained.)
 
  • #147
Yes, it's That Old Ace in the Hole - I found my self cackling alot when I read it, the style was just so ______??? Dry humor??? Satire, irony? You see, it's been quite awhile since I was in college. Do you know I got distracted and didn't finish the book - maybe I will now.

So Brokeback is quick - maybe I'll read it then; I found it poignant. Like a Tragedy. An ironic tragedy, like Shakespeare. Am I right?

Thanks for the tip on Accordian - I didn't like the Shipping News too much, did you? I'm going to do alot of reading this summer.

I have a great idea!!!! Maybe we could start a thread on plays and great books, and musicals, and you could teach us some things. I would love that!!!!!! Like when I go to New York City, I have no idea which plays are really good. Also we have alot of plays around here. Some of them are great, like the Buddy Holly Story, and then I saw a "Mamet" play; I saw West Side Story; it was great - it's amazing how the locals can put on a great performance. Actually, people come from all over to perform here.

Actually, I consider Brokeback Mountain and Far From Heaven (Dennis Quaid) to both be more like plays than movies.

Oh, have you ever read Sarah Bird? She lives around here (The Flamenco Academy);Yakota Officer's Club, Alamo House.

She's really witty, writes for Texas Monthly. I know her, and she's "something else". Sorry this post is so long!!!!

Not to worry about length, Martha. This thread was pretty well played out before we started our graduate seminar. I'll be happy to discuss any play I know, but I can't pretend I keep up on the latest Broadway shows. I'm a small town boy nowadays.

I loved Far from Heaven, too, probably more than Brokeback.

I had to look up "ironic tragedy," because I couldn't remember what it means. Northrop Frye coined the term to denote modern "heroes" who are relatively weak and pitiful and are brutalized by the power of society. Most German Expressionist heroes fit this bill and I can certainly see the Brokeback guys as "ironic" tragic heroes according to this definition.

But I prefer Arthur Miller's definition of tragedy in his 1940s article, "Death and the Common Man." Miller was defending his own characters--such as Willie Loman--and those of Tennessee Williams against complaints that modern tragic heroes weren't sufficiently "noble" if compared to, say, Oedipus. His answer is similar to Frye's.

Miller argues that the modern hero refuses to bend in the face of a dehumanizing society and that very refusal IS his nobility. Miller concludes (and this is logically questionable, but I like it) that although the modern tragic hero is destroyed, we in the audience are inspired by his perseverance. (Miller was also responding to Brecht's argument that tragedy renders us numb and feeling powerless.)

I think we admire the Brokeback guys because they refuse to bend to society's dictate that they love (or more likely, pretend to love) according to society's narrow rules of attraction. That Heath Ledger is left with nothing but a smelly shirt is tragic, but also inspiring because he has preserved the dignity that comes with being himself.

And that dignity is something we can all root for, gay or straight.

(I haven't read Sarah Bird, but I'll look for her.)
 
  • #148
Oh, by the way Nova - I realize that I am often tempted to be "transgressive", at Websleuths, ESPECIALLY, on the PP. he he

The only "trans"es I ever knew were "transfatty acids", and "transsexual", or "transdressing", or transcendental meditation.

Now I see that "trans" must mean "cross", and "gressive" must mean "going or moving"

"Transgressive" is a big word in modern literary (and dramatic) criticism. In that context, it's usually considered a good thing. You can imagine why.
 
  • #149
Not to worry about length, Martha. This thread was pretty well played out before we started our graduate seminar. I'll be happy to discuss any play I know, but I can't pretend I keep up on the latest Broadway shows. I'm a small town boy nowadays.

I loved Far from Heaven, too, probably more than Brokeback.

I had to look up "ironic tragedy," because I couldn't remember what it means. Northrop Frye coined the term to denote modern "heroes" who are relatively weak and pitiful and are brutalized by the power of society. Most German Expressionist heroes fit this bill and I can certainly see the Brokeback guys as "ironic" tragic heroes according to this definition.

But I prefer Arthur Miller's definition of tragedy in his 1940s article, "Death and the Common Man." Miller was defending his own characters--such as Willie Loman--and those of Tennessee Williams against complaints that modern tragic heroes weren't sufficiently "noble" if compared to, say, Oedipus. His answer is similar to Frye's.

Miller argues that the modern hero refuses to bend in the face of a dehumanizing society and that very refusal IS his nobility. Miller concludes (and this is logically questionable, but I like it) that although the modern tragic hero is destroyed, we in the audience are inspired by his perseverance. (Miller was also responding to Brecht's argument that tragedy renders us numb and feeling powerless.)

I think we admire the Brokeback guys because they refuse to bend to society's dictate that they love (or more likely, pretend to love) according to society's narrow rules of attraction. That Heath Ledger is left with nothing but a smelly shirt is tragic, but also inspiring because he has preserved the dignity that comes with being himself.

And that dignity is something we can all root for, gay or straight.


(I haven't read Sarah Bird, but I'll look for her.)

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
 
  • #150
Exactly, Nova. I have the very same opinion of FAR FROM HEAVEN, it was far superior in getting an effect to the audience. The MOOD was definite and stayed the same. Little humor that I remember. At one point people are so quiet you hear a pin drop; when he is breaking down in the living room.

I mean, I WAS THAT MAN; I FELT IT; and I'm a woman. Now THAT"s good acting and screenplay IMO.

So, "transgressive" is GOOD. NOW YOU TELL ME. OK, I understand what you're saying now. It's used in literary discussions - I've got it!

It's something like PUSHES THE ENVELOPE.

I would just adore taking one of your classes, dude. Death of Salesman - was that one of those kind of plays of which you were speaking? I think that's the Mamet play I saw. Or is that Arthur Miller? Not sure.

You had to look up tragic irony? Shame, shame. I guess I did study some Shakespeare at one time.

Brokeback Mountain/Shakespearean? Most definitely IMO.
 
  • #151
Hey, everyone, I'm back. Same values and views, I'm afraid.

I feel the substitute was wrong and it was intentional, their lifestyle probably reflects that of the movie.

Thank God for private christian schools. It's an abomination.

:angel: I still love the person that has this kind of life style as much as someone who lives a life that reflects my life choices.
 
  • #152
Hey, everyone, I'm back. Same values and views, I'm afraid.

I feel the substitute was wrong and it was intentional, their lifestyle probably reflects that of the movie.

Thank God for private christian schools. It's an abomination.

:angel: I still love the person that has this kind of life style as much as someone who lives a life that reflects my life choices.

Hiya, Kool. Long time no see!
 
  • #153
Hiya, Kool. Long time no see!


Yes, a very long time, and I missed everyone and this forum. I thought of you often. I'm back now for another season. Good to hear from you.

I hope we can learn something from this incident reported. Our children need to be guided correctly.
 
  • #154
Yes, a very long time, and I missed everyone and this forum. I thought of you often. I'm back now for another season. Good to hear from you.

I hope we can learn something from this incident reported. Our children need to be guided correctly.

I don't feel like re-reading the whole thread, but it seems to me most agree that showing an R-rated film to 8th graders was inappropriate.
 
  • #155
Hey, everyone, I'm back. Same values and views, I'm afraid.

I feel the substitute was wrong and it was intentional, their lifestyle probably reflects that of the movie.

Thank God for private christian schools. It's an abomination.

:angel: I still love the person that has this kind of life style as much as someone who lives a life that reflects my life choices.

Everyone agrees that the substitute was wrong, actually (I think, looking back), and it appears she knew what she was doin.

We just got kind of sidetracked back onto the movie. But, don't Christian Schools need substitutes also?

I myself taught in a Christian Preschool, (5 years), and believe me I saw some great teachers and then some very poor ones. The pay was not so hot.

I see what you mean though, maybe in a smaller school the Principal can have more "control" over what goes on, and the rules may be clearer. My kids somehow survived the public schools, but some years were really "interesting?" :waitasec:
 
  • #156
...I feel the substitute was wrong and it was intentional, their lifestyle probably reflects that of the movie....

Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.

The only "lifestyle" depicted in the movie is one of deep repression that brings misery and loneliness to everyone involved. A person living that "lifestyle" wouldn't be advertising it to schoolchildren. Or anyone else.
 
  • #157
I don't feel like re-reading the whole thread, but it seems to me most agree that showing an R-rated film to 8th graders was inappropriate.

You don't have to. Not a single person here has defended showing that movie to 8th graders. We are all in agreement that it was very bad judgment.
 
  • #158
Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.

The only "lifestyle" depicted in the movie is one of deep repression that brings misery and loneliness to everyone involved. A person living that "lifestyle" wouldn't be advertising it to schoolchildren. Or anyone else.

Oh, I don't know...

What if she found out that she was married to a gay man that felt he had to repress his homosexuality due to the pressures of society or religion. So she showed it as a warning of what could happen if you chose to try repressing a very core of your being?

So, in a sense, herlifestyle could reflect that of the movie....

This is all conjecture, of course. Rhetorical.

PLEASE NOTE- I'm not condoning showing an R-rated movie to 8th graders.
 
  • #159
Oh, I don't know...

What if she found out that she was married to a gay man that felt he had to repress his homosexuality due to the pressures of society or religion. So she showed it as a warning of what could happen if you chose to try repressing a very core of your being?

So, in a sense, herlifestyle could reflect that of the movie....

This is all conjecture, of course. Rhetorical.

PLEASE NOTE- I'm not condoning showing an R-rated movie to 8th graders.

Excellent hypothetical, IM. Somehow, I don't think that's what Kool meant. (And anyone who shows that movie to teach girls not to marry gay men has a much bigger problem that her taste in films for children. LOL.)
 
  • #160
Oh, I don't know...

What if she found out that she was married to a gay man that felt he had to repress his homosexuality due to the pressures of society or religion. So she showed it as a warning of what could happen if you chose to try repressing a very core of your being?

So, in a sense, herlifestyle could reflect that of the movie....

This is all conjecture, of course. Rhetorical.

PLEASE NOTE- I'm not condoning showing an R-rated movie to 8th graders.

Been having alot of vivid dreams lately, IM? :)

Your theme would be great for college students, actually; maybe upper high school.

I don't know why I felt so much less offended by this movie than so many others (violent, heterosexual hypocrisy, two-timing; etc), all I remember from Brokeback is some angst ridden wives and husbands, and alot of "Howdy Pawdner!!" (Rhetorical as well) :)
 

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