The actual vs. desired outcome

[UKGuy]

A (step)father whose child has just been found dead allegedly being concerned about such trivial things - given the situation - as a messy house because "relatives would be arriving" should have raised a thousand red flags with policeman Anderson. But it didn't, and so he let Wilson clean up the crime scene. This reminds me of the Boulder cops allowing te victims' advocates to wipe off the fingerprint dust in the Ramsey home.

Interesting case, UKGuy. But it can't be quite compared to the Ramsey case because the wife was not involved in the cover-up.
Whereas in the JBR case, Patsy Ramsey was the main stager of the scene (fibers from her jacket were found in the garrote, and she most likely wrote the ransom note). So I always come back to the question: why on earth would Patsy have covered up for John if he both molested and killed her daughter? For this does not mesh with a scenario in which JonBenet threatened John to tell Mommy and he silenced her for good.

rashomon,
Of course its not intended as an exact comparison, but it does have some common features, e.g. a daughter is involved, staging is involved, and sexual assault.

Your question cuts both ways why should John risk a jail sentence, possibly even a death sentence if Patsy points the finger at him and accuses him of molesting and killing JonBenet?

Sadly the answer appears to be both that JonBenet was being sexually molested and that both parents were aware of this?

.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Hold on,

Page 537, Perfect Murder, PT, by Lawrence Schiller, "Ubowski was prepared to say Patsy Ramsey wrote the Note".


Once again, please lets hear their names. This is a board of "fact". So when you say one said this and one said that, it doesn't work. Lets hear some names. And also, please read Epsteins's depostion. He states he believes Patsy Ramsey wrote the note and so does Larry Siegler (sp).

Not to change the subject or anything, but did they find any ink from the pen on PR, her clothes, or anywhere besides the note? Did anyone, a family member or neighbor, see PR writing? Was the pen found in PR's pocket? Was there any evidence besides the handwriting comparison expert testimony that indicated PR wrote the note?

 

[DeeDee249]

Not to change the subject or anything, but did they find any ink from the pen on PR, her clothes, or anywhere besides the note? Did anyone, a family member or neighbor, see PR writing? Was the pen found in PR's pocket? Was there any evidence besides the handwriting comparison expert testimony that indicated PR wrote the note?

I think you already know that note was written in the middle of the night- so of course no neighbor or anyone who did not live in the house would see it written. And as you know, the pen was put back in the container it was kept in. So, do you think the Rs are innocent because no one saw them kill their daughter?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I think you already know that note was written in the middle of the night- so of course no neighbor or anyone who did not live in the house would see it written. And as you know, the pen was put back in the container it was kept in. So, do you think the Rs are innocent because no one saw them kill their daughter?

Uh, no.

But I do think that the claim that PR wrote the note, which is supported by some expert witnesses, can't be supported by any other means.

 

[Solace]

Not to change the subject or anything, but did they find any ink from the pen on PR, her clothes, or anywhere besides the note? Did anyone, a family member or neighbor, see PR writing? Was the pen found in PR's pocket? Was there any evidence besides the handwriting comparison expert testimony that indicated PR wrote the note?

No problem on changing the subject and I think that was answered. But you were going to post the numerous analysts who believe that Patsy DID NOT write the note. Thanks Holdon.

Also does anyone know for sure that Patsy admits writing the Practice notes (saying they were for a different occasion). I could swear that I read that somewhere and of course I didnot keep the source, but if you know the answer, please let me know. Thanks.

 

[BOESP]

...
Also does anyone know for sure that Patsy admits writing the Practice notes (saying they were for a different occasion). I could swear that I read that somewhere and of course I didnot keep the source, but if you know the answer, please let me know. Thanks.

Solace, I read about the practice notes too but can't remember where. It likely had to be either DOI or Steve Thomas's book. She said she was planning the wording for invitations for a to-do they were going to have. She also explained that she used notepads for everything, particularly to plan letters, invitations, and making "to-do lists." So, we have two corroborative posters who remember the same thing. That must make it so. :innocent:

 

[BOESP]

Uh, no.

But I do think that the claim that PR wrote the note, which is supported by some expert witnesses, can't be supported by any other means.

Holdon, you might want to check-out the ransom note analyses at http://www.realsundancekid.com then look on the right side, toward the top but under JonBenet's photo. Click the "Ransom Note Handwriting Analysis" link. It'll show you what you want to see, presuming you want to see statements from both sides of the fence.

I seriously doubt that many kidnapping cases taken to court require a primary witness to the writing of the ransom note. The prosecution only has to prove reasonable doubt, not prove beyond any doubt at all. Reasonable is the key word here.

 

[Solace]

Holdon, you might want to check-out the ransom note analyses at http://www.realsundancekid.com then look on the right side, toward the top but under JonBenet's photo. Click the "Ransom Note Handwriting Analysis" link. It'll show you what you want to see, presuming you want to see statements from both sides of the fence.

I seriously doubt that many kidnapping cases taken to court require a primary witness to the writing of the ransom note. The prosecution only has to prove reasonable doubt, not prove beyond any doubt at all. Reasonable is the key word here.

Okay BOESP,

That is one of the best sites ever. Thank you so much for it. It is so hard to find something all in one. I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

 

[Rino]

Not to change the subject or anything, but did they find any ink from the pen on PR, her clothes, or anywhere besides the note? Did anyone, a family member or neighbor, see PR writing? Was the pen found in PR's pocket? Was there any evidence besides the handwriting comparison expert testimony that indicated PR wrote the note?

It may surprise you to know that I sit a my desk 5 days a week and write without ever getting ink on me. I never knew whether to think I was special or just kinda normal, now mayby I think I'm special....:crazy:

Did anyone see her write it??!!?? You have got to be kidding....

 

[Solace]

It may surprise you to know that I sit a my desk 5 days a week and write without ever getting ink on me. I never knew whether to think I was special or just kinda normal, now mayby I think I'm special....:crazy:

Did anyone see her write it??!!?? You have got to be kidding....

Holdon is not kidding. She wants absolute proof and eyewitness is absolute. There would not be very many solved crimes if we needed an eyewitness to the event. And by the way "eyewitnessing" is the most fallible evidence there is according to statistics. People just don't get it right.

BOESP,

If you look at the pictures of JB's bed, it does not appear that it was even slept in. Clothes all over the bed. No pillow. It does not look like it was slept in. I don't think she made it to bed. What do you think?

 

[JMO8778]

Solace, I read about the practice notes too but can't remember where. It likely had to be either DOI or Steve Thomas's book. She said she was planning the wording for invitations for a to-do they were going to have. She also explained that she used notepads for everything, particularly to plan letters, invitations, and making "to-do lists." So, we have two corroborative posters who remember the same thing. That must make it so. :innocent:

It was Thomas's book,and it was to Pam Griffin that she admitted writing the start of it.
And of course that's why IDI tries so hard to discredit the book...because it tells the truth.

 

[BOESP]

Okay BOESP,

That is one of the best sites ever. Thank you so much for it. It is so hard to find something all in one. I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

Only problem is Solace I said right side. It's the left side and it's the defense who has to show reasonable doubt not the prosecution. (Never post before you've had your coffee.) :crazy:

 

[BOESP]

Holdon is not kidding. She wants absolute proof and eyewitness is absolute. There would not be very many solved crimes if we needed an eyewitness to the event. And by the way "eyewitnessing" is the most fallible evidence there is according to statistics. People just don't get it right.

BOESP,

If you look at the pictures of JB's bed, it does not appear that it was even slept in. Clothes all over the bed. No pillow. It does not look like it was slept in. I don't think she made it to bed. What do you think?

It looks more like JonBenet could have been propped up on the pillow at the foot of the bed maybe watching a video on her television. Somewhere I read that she often spent her free time watching videos. Now whether that is the activity she was involved in before they went to the Whites or whether she watched after getting home that night I can not say. It looks to me like she never made it to bed for sleeping purposes that night.

You know those statistics you mentioned about fallible evidence from eyewitnesses, well, the statistics are so overwhelmingly in favor of not being reliable that there is a special name for it. It's the Rashomon effect (but you already knew that didn't you ).

 

[BOESP]

It was Thomas's book,and it was to Pam Griffin that she admitted writing the start of it.
And of course that's why IDI tries so hard to discredit the book...because it tells the truth.

JMO, you make Corroborative Poster #3. We're on a roll here! :dance:

 

[Solace]

It was Thomas's book,and it was to Pam Griffin that she admitted writing the start of it.
And of course that's why IDI tries so hard to discredit the book...because it tells the truth.

I see and so as long as it is from Steve Thomas' book, it has to be a lie. Thanks JMO.

 

[Solace]

It looks more like JonBenet could have been propped up on the pillow at the foot of the bed maybe watching a video on her television. Somewhere I read that she often spent her free time watching videos. Now whether that is the activity she was involved in before they went to the Whites or whether she watched after getting home that night I can not say. It looks to me like she never made it to bed for sleeping purposes that night.

You know those statistics you mentioned about fallible evidence from eyewitnesses, well, the statistics are so overwhelmingly in favor of not being reliable that there is a special name for it. It's the Rashomon effect (but you already knew that didn't you ).

But there are clothes all over the bed. Would she have gone to sleep with clothes all over the bed? Is this addressed in Thomas' book or anywhere else?

 

[BOESP]

But there are clothes all over the bed. Would she have gone to sleep with clothes all over the bed? Is this addressed in Thomas' book or anywhere else?

I don't think the bed looks like anyone could have comfortably slept there. The stuff on the bed could suggest JonBenet had been watching videos since the pillow is at the foot of the bed. The sweater at the foot of the bed looks way too big for JonBenet but maybe it's the camera angle causing distortion.

I can't remember how Thomas approached this, if at all. He did mention that JonBenet's sheets had creatine residue on them.

I'd guess if Patsy dressed JonBenet for bed she put pull-ups on JonBenet or if not Patsy, while finally on her way to bed and being very tired, came by JonBenet's bedroom for the midnight potty run and found JonBenet had already had an accident that required a clean-up. My view is either JonBenet at that point pitched a hissy about going to bed or else she accidentally went to sleep watching a video while lying on top of her favorite blanket and made a mess on herself and the blanket. Of course I'm just speculating.

What is the little pink thing at the upper left toward the head of the bed? Is it a night gown?

 

[Solace]

Only problem is Solace I said right side. It's the left side and it's the defense who has to prove reasonable doubt not the prosecution. (Never post before you've had your coffee.) :crazy:

I know, but I found it and it is a wonderful site.

 

[Solace]

I don't think the bed looks like anyone could have comfortably slept there. The stuff on the bed could suggest JonBenet had been watching videos since the pillow is at the foot of the bed. The sweater at the foot of the bed looks way too big for JonBenet but maybe it's the camera angle causing distortion.

I can't remember how Thomas approached this, if at all. He did mention that JonBenet's sheets had creatine residue on them.

I'd guess if Patsy dressed JonBenet for bed she put pull-ups on JonBenet or if not Patsy, while finally on her way to bed and being very tired, came by JonBenet's bedroom for the midnight potty run and found JonBenet had already had an accident that required a clean-up. My view is either JonBenet at that point pitched a hissy about going to bed or else she accidentally went to sleep watching a video while lying on top of her favorite blanket and made a mess on herself and the blanket. Of course I'm just speculating.

What is the little pink thing at the upper left toward the head of the bed? Is it a night gown?

Not sure. It appears to be, I can make out a sleeve and that is it. It looks like nightgown material.

 

[Ames]

No problem on changing the subject and I think that was answered. But you were going to post the numerous analysts who believe that Patsy DID NOT write the note. Thanks Holdon.

Also does anyone know for sure that Patsy admits writing the Practice notes (saying they were for a different occasion). I could swear that I read that somewhere and of course I didnot keep the source, but if you know the answer, please let me know. Thanks.

Solace, I read that too...the practice notes...were actually, according to Patsy....the start of a practice invitation..to a Ramsey Christmas Party...
Mr and Mrs. Ramsey..would like to invite you....etc.