Ames
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Make that THREE!
The actual vs. desired outcome
- Thread starter Holdontoyourhat
- Start date
Make that THREE!
Ames
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It looks more like JonBenet could have been propped up on the pillow at the foot of the bed maybe watching a video on her television. Somewhere I read that she often spent her free time watching videos. Now whether that is the activity she was involved in before they went to the Whites or whether she watched after getting home that night I can not say. It looks to me like she never made it to bed for sleeping purposes that night.
You know those statistics you mentioned about fallible evidence from eyewitnesses, well, the statistics are so overwhelmingly in favor of not being reliable that there is a special name for it. It's the Rashomon effect (but you already knew that didn't you).
In one of Patsy's interviews...and I have posted this here awhile back...she is asked if JB ever had nighttime nosebleeds, because a stain was found on her pillow. I wonder if maybe after JB struck her head, her nose bled...Patsy placed her on the bed...she bled on the pillow...and Patsy decided to lie her flat...(I have always heard to hold your head back, if you were having a nosebleed). Maybe that is why the pillow was at the other end of the bed...Patsy removed it, and placed it there, so that she could lie JB out flat on the bed, to try and stop the nose bleed. Oh yeah, Patsy said that JB never had nighttime nosebleeds. If this is the case...then WHERE did the stain come from.
Ames, if I remember correctly, during this questioning about blood on the pillow Patsy asked if they'd found blood on the curtain (correct me if wrong). Also, was the blood on the pillow, the pillow case, or both? I can't remember.
Scene 1: whatever caused JonBenet's head wound happened while JonBenet was in the bed??
Scene 2: it was a bed-wetting rage that started in the bedroom and ended in the bathroom??
Scene 3: the head blow occurred in the bath room as Steve Thomas stated, due to corporal cleaning. Patsy picked up JonBenet and carried her to the bed to examine her and try to revive her and her nose bled??
Scene 4: JonBenet was sexually molested and blood from the vaginal area leaked to the pillow???
Can you think of any other possibilities or variations?
Ames
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Yeah, long time no see.....we have been busy moving. But I am BACK...ready to reek havoc on the IDI theory. LOL
Ames
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What she said was..when shown the picture of the curtain..."I don't see any blood there, do you?" Now, WHY she asked that, I haven't a clue. In the interview it said "pillow"...I will find that, and repost it. I think that Scene 3 is what happened. It must have been too much of a stain to have been from being molested. I think that her nose bled....onto the pillow, as Patsy tried to revive her.
Okay...heres the part that YOU were referring to..
15 TRIP DEMUTH: Is that unusual to be hanging
16 over the door?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Usually they are kind
18 of tucked back.
19 TRIP DEMUTH: Five and four.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
21 TOM HANEY: That is the material that pulls
22 the drapery, it pulls it back.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. I don't see any blood
24 or anything, do you?
And heres the part about the stain...and nosebleeds..
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Pillows and things. Yeah,
14 this is the little pillow (inaudible). Her Christmas
15 doll.
16 TOM HANEY: That is 73, 74, 75, and 76 now.
17 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible).
18 TOM HANEY: That I couldn't tell you right at
19 this moment. Do you remember any staining on that
20 pillow the night you put her to bed?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: No. It was dark in there, you
22 know.
23 TOM HANEY: When you put her to bed did you
24 turn on any lights that night, Christmas night.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think so. Maybe. I
0426
1 can't remember. I remember dressing her, her pajamas
2 pants on her. It was dark. I didn't turn on the
3 bright lights because I didn't want to wake her up.
4 TOM HANEY: But back up. John had carried
5 her up and put her on the bed, and then you took it
6 from there?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
8 TOM HANEY: But you never turned on the
9 light?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: I probably turned one on in
11 the bathroom looking for the pajamas. I would have
12 been in there.
13 TOM HANEY: How about this pillow, when is
14 the last time in the daytime would you have some time
15 on Christmas day gone in there to put away Christmas
16 presents, to do anything?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.
18 TOM HANEY: How often would say the pillow
19 case would be changed?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: At least once a week.
21 TOM HANEY: Okay. How about the rest of the
22 day, the bottom tucked in sheets.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: At least once a week.
24 TOM HANEY: Was there a particular day of the
25 week that --
0427
1 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.
2 TOM HANEY: Okay. I mean, some folks are
3 pretty much on a schedule.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: I'm pretty laid back.
5 TOM HANEY: How about Linda?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I know she did it once a week.
7 I don't know what day she did it.
8 TOM HANEY: So this particular sheet could be
9 on its last day of the seven or -- the holiday it could
10 be --
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Longer.
12 TOM HANEY: Was she expected to come in that
13 day?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
15 TOM HANEY: 26th.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: She was supposed to come in.
17 She was going to come on Friday. Wednesday was
18 Christmas, so she was off on Christmas. She came
19 Monday, Wednesday and Friday. She was there Monday
20 because she helped me get ready for the party.
21 TOM HANEY: When you were getting ready for
22 the party did she do the laundry?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. We were getting
24 ready for the party, you know.
25 TOM HANEY: Right.
0428
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Downstairs. She didn't come
2 Wednesday because it was Christmas. She was going to
3 come Friday after we had gone, and I left her a check
4 because she (inaudible) cried she wanted money.
5 TOM HANEY: But if she comes Monday,
6 Wednesday and Friday, and obviously doesn't come
7 because of Christmas on Wednesday, we have the sheets
8 on at a minimum, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, so three
9 days.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably.
11 TOM HANEY: The maximum number going back.
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Maybe the next Friday.
13 TOM HANEY: Or last Wednesday.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
15 TRIP DEMUTH: Did JonBenet ever have nose
16 bleeds at night?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I remember.
18 Sometimes she might pick her nose, maybe cause it to
19 bleed, but she wouldn't have one of those, you know,
20 dry, you know, to hold her head back kind of thing.
Check this out....
http://www.healthy.net/scr/article.a...rticle&Id=1286
Signs and Symptoms of Head Injuries That Alert The Need For Medical Care include:
Loss of consciousness, confusion, drowsiness
Inability to move any part of the body or weakness in an arm or leg
Dent, bruise, cut or blood on the scalp
Severe headache
Stiff neck
Vomiting
Blood or fluid that comes from the mouth, nose or earLoss of vision, blurred or double vision, pupils of unequal size
Convulsions
Her last words are that she didn't have a nosebleed, to hold her head back or anything. This is what I was talking about in a previous post. I think that after the head wound, her nose bled, Patsy placed her on the bed, with the pillow under her head, the bleeding would not stop...Patsy removed the pillow, and placed it at the foot of the bed, so that she could lie JB flat...and tilt her head back. Those sheets and pillow case could have been washed to remove any blood or urine stains, and either another set was placed on the bed, or the washed set was placed back on the bed. My guess would be that she was just in too much of a hurry, to worry about placing the pillow back at the head of the bed. She just changed it and threw it back where it had been. IMO
Holdontoyourhat
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I think you're missing the point.
For all RDI's claims, not one has independent confirmation. You've got some handwriting analysts testimony but no ink. OK fine. You've got some child sex abuse experts testimony but no corroborative witness testimony. Not so fine. You've got cord purchase receipts but no other cord use.
The point is, RDI has claim after claim, and not one item of corroborative evidence or testimony for any of them.
I would say this is exactly what is the fact in MOST murders. There is no corroborative evidence. The victim makes a poor witness, being dead and all. They can't say who killed them. (unless you bring in John Edward, Sylvia Brown, etc.) But in many cases, forensics CAN say who killed them. In this case, forensics tells us how she died. But the "WHO" has to be pieced together from other evidence, i.e. the pineapple, fibers on the body, and the staging of the crime.
You just can't say that because no one saw the Rs kill their daughter that they are innocent. You have to follow the evidence. And the evidence points to them.
Holdontoyourhat
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There's many many many other ways RDI claims could be corroborated besides someone seeing the R's kill their daughter. Thats a deliberate oversimplification.
How about R DNA mixed with JBR's blood, instead of 'unknown' DNA? That would corroborate chronic sexual abuse claim. But there wasn't R DNA there at all.
How about R DNA under JBR's fingernails, and matching scratches on JR or PR. That would sure corroborate RDI claims. Instead, there was unknown male DNA under JBR's fingernails.
How would anyone know if any of the Rs had scratches? They were never searched or examined. That being said, we are all aware that the DNA under her fingernails matched no one suspected of the crime. However, don't forget that it is also well-known that the coroner did not follow proper procedure, which required using separate, sterile nailclippers for EACH FINGERNAIL. Instead, he used the same clippers for all her fingernails. And we don't know for sure if they were really sterile. Just the fact that he did this in the first place indicates that his methods may have been lax. Maybe the DNA under her nails came from the clippers. Maybe it got there just from handling stuff over the few days she did not have a bath. Rogue DNA, male or female, is under anyone's nails at any given time. At no time did LE or the coroner say that SKIN cells, blood, etc. were found under her nails, as would be the case if the DNA got there because she scratched someone in the course of the crime.
And the matter of the panties has been misunderstood, as I see it. Yes, there was JBR's blood. But there was no other blood. There was other DNA. And that could have been there on the panties as they came out of the package. It was NOT blood. And it has also been stated many times that the DNA on the panties WAS NOT the same DNA as was found under her nails.
Holdon, you keep bringing up the same rebuttal that has been disproved several times not only here but on just about every board that has a JonBenet thread. As "they" say on CrimeLibrary, repeating yourself won't make it so.
No skin, blood, or other organic human matter was found under the nails. It would be there if JonBenet had scratched her assailant. Take scrapings from your own nails and have it examined. You might be surprised how much "foreign" non-Ramsey DNA you'll find. As to the DNA in JonBenet's panties, most experts agree it was artifact, probably from the time the panties were still in the factory being made. Even Mary Lacy publicly said it might not be related to the crime. Those who don't agree are on the Ramsey defense team and, in my view, make themselves look uninformed and not credible when they continue the DNA farce. Fortunately, people have educated themselves about DNA since that time and that little cuckoo won't fly any more.
If Patsy was cleaning JonBenet there is no reason her DNA should be found in JonBenet's vaginal vault. Shoot, she even had access to latex gloves in her chemo kit. My personal opinion is that John wasn't molesting her so he is a moot point. That aside, where is all that DNA from inside the vaginal vault or on the external genitalia. It should be there to corroborate your claim based on the way you evaluate things -- gloves for the Intruder, gloves for the mother. Makes no difference.
Ames
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Don't waste your time trying to convince an IDI...of an RDI theory, or bring up facts from the case. They do not and will not listen....you are just wasting energy when you respond to their nonsense.
My sister brought this case up to me, while talking about Madeliene's disappearance, and she said that she believes that Maddy's parents are innocent, just like "that little girl, over in....now what state was it". I said..."it was Boulder, Colorado". I then said..."You think that JonBenéts parents are not guilty? Are you crazy?" Then I went on to tell her the facts of this case...mentioning that they were Millionaires. My sister said, and she is a KNOW IT ALL...."What? NO they weren't, they didn't have alot of money!" And I felt the blood rushing to my head. She says that the Ramsey's are innocent, but YET...didn't know where they lived, and that they had tons of money....she thought that they were poor. Guess she didn't see that huge mansion that they kept showing over and over again on the news, that they lived in. This is the same deal with some (not ALL) IDI's...they simply do not know all of the facts in this case.
No the DNA WILL NOT fly anymore. And the Ramseys were MORE THAN aware of it. But they add it to the back of their book anyway. It is the usual Ramsey ploy, just say something and it is an answer "at the time' and will do just fine. And it is exactly that which makes me look at the Ramseys as the "guilty" parties.
Be honest. If it was found the ink was found from a pen in the house, as the pad of paper was,would that sway you? If the rope was indeed used for another purpose in the home prior to this would it really have any impact on your intruder theory?
Ames
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Let ME answer that....NO. You could show an IDI a tape of Patsy (or John) killing their daughter, and they STILL would find some excuse for it not to be so. I think that alot of people just do not want to believe that parents could do this to their own child, even though it happens every single day. Sad to say....but true.
My guess is that Patsy wore latex gloves...(like the ones found in her medicine drawer....how convenient)....when she wrote the note. That's why she didn't get ink on her. Even without the gloves...there is no written law that says, every single time that you use a Sharpie pen, you will get ink on you.
Anecdotal evidence -- I use a Sharpie almost every day. I rarely get the ink on me. Someone else here said the same thing. We've corroborated each other's stories. I'd swear to it under oath in a court of law. We've proved that Holdon's statement won't hold up.
Anybody else want to testify about Sharpie pens?
JMO8778
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Anecdotal evidence -- I use a Sharpie almost every day. I rarely get the ink on me. Someone else here said the same thing. We've corroborated each other's stories. I'd swear to it under oath in a court of law. We've proved that Holdon's statement won't hold up.
Anybody else want to testify about Sharpie pens?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I would like to weigh in here. I just ordered 3 more Sharpie pens from the Supply Department and I have found them to be exceptionally clean. Not a drop of ink on my hands at the end of the day.
And lets not forget that "shack" they moved into after the murder - in Atlanta.
JMO8778
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Anecdotal evidence -- I use a Sharpie almost every day. I rarely get the ink on me. Someone else here said the same thing. We've corroborated each other's stories. I'd swear to it under oath in a court of law. We've proved that Holdon's statement won't hold up.
Anybody else want to testify about Sharpie pens?
I used one the other day to mark the pictures I wanted from my kids school photo proofs...after marking which ones I wanted,I put them all together in an envelope,then quickly thought..I shouldn't have done that ! Now they'll have ink of the front of them ! (we get to keep the proofs as part of the package),but nope...it dried that quickly.and yes,it was a black sharpie.and nope..no ink on me.
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