The actual vs. desired outcome

[Ames]

it's amazing that Patsy never did a self-portrait.
If she has, I haven't seen it anywhere.

Me either...

 

[icedtea4me]

OMG...you have GOT to be kidding!! Ummmm...yeah....the killer worked in a pineapple factory....and ummm.....all the years of working with pineapple destroyed his....ummm...fingerprints. Yeah, that's what happened. That's the ticket. That is almost as ridiculous as one of the posters over on another board, theory.....that Patsy let this group of people in, that were part of some child ring, and she opened the door for them, and invited them in....so that they could molest JB. She told them..."now, go ahead and molest her if you want...but, just don't hurt her", so they all go down to the basement with JB, and molested her while Patsy took a snooze on the couch. Patsy was startled by a scream...(the same scream that the neighbor heard)...and rushed down to the basement, only to be met on the stairs by one of the people in the ring, and he said..."we're sorry...it was an accident". And Patsy KNEW right then, that something had gone terribly wrong. OH WAIT...it gets even better. And then they all gathered around Patsy at the kitchen table and FORCED her to write that Ransom note. I am not lying...this is actually a theory of an IDI on another board. And maybe a space alien came down from Mars, and killed JB....sounds just about as likely.

And Charles Kuralt was supposed to be there to do a photoshoot. Yeah, this theory has practically everyone in Boulder down in the Ramseys' basement that night.


-Tea

 

[Ames]

And Charles Kuralt was supposed to be there to do a photoshoot. Yeah, this theory has practically everyone in Boulder down in the Ramseys' basement that night.


-Tea

LOL ....just a regular party, there in the basement. Come one....come all....everyone is invited, including everyone from Charles Kuralt....to a bunch of child pornographers. WHAT a mix, huh??

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

add to that the notepad,and the sharpie pen which was placed right back in the cup..would an intruder be so tidy? it was done out of habit,because that's what Patsy always did...put it right back in the cup.

So the RDI claim that PR wrote the note is supported by both expert witness testimony and the fact that the pen was found in the cup where PR habitually puts it.

IDI has a claim that JBR was taken from her bed. This is supported by both witness testimony and the cord fibers found in the bed.

 

[DeeDee249]

So the RDI claim that PR wrote the note is supported by both expert witness testimony and the fact that the pen was found in the cup where PR habitually puts it.

IDI has a claim that JBR was taken from her bed. This is supported by both witness testimony and the cord fibers found in the bed.

Holdon, why do you refuse to accept that the cord fibers from the garotte were NOT the same fibers found in her bed? You are pretty good at posting links- better than me, anyway. The fibers in the bed were the HEMP ROPE fibers from he rope in the brown paper bag that was found in JAR's room, adjoining JBR's room.

 

[JMO8778]

and the fact that the pen was found in the cup where PR habitually puts it.

yes,the habits of the ppl who live in the house where a dead child is found are taken into consideration,why would they not be? esp. given the fact that Patsy can't be eliminated as author,the pad and pen were hers,her fiber evidence is found on the victim,her prints on the pineapple bowl and pineapple found in JB,despite the fact the R's say they put her straight to bed from the car and she was asleep,and on and on.

 

[BOESP]

So the RDI claim that PR wrote the note is supported by both expert witness testimony and the fact that the pen was found in the cup where PR habitually puts it.

IDI has a claim that JBR was taken from her bed. This is supported by both witness testimony and the cord fibers found in the bed.

Some RDI claim that JonBenet was taken from her bed. Some believe she never made it to bed.

By the way, what witness saw her being taken from her bed? Did you really mean to say that? Also, what evidence proves the cord used on JonBenet matches the fibers found in her bed. Some of us recall that the fibers mentioned as being in her bed came from the rope and/or paper bag found in John Andrew's bedroom.

 

[JMO8778]

Some RDI claim that JonBenet was taken from her bed. Some believe she never made it to bed.

By the way, what witness saw her being taken from her bed? Did you really mean to say that? Also, what evidence proves the cord used on JonBenet matches the fibers found in her bed. Some of us recall that the fibers mentioned as being in her bed came from the rope and/or paper bag found in John Andrew's bedroom.

I think it was on Court TV,but Smit said that there was some rope that had never been tested.I don't know what exactly he was talking about,or if it's been tested since then.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

...one thing leads to another...

The IDI claim that the garrote was a murder weapon and not an improvised prop has more than two supporting arguments:

1. Coroner stated JBR died from asphyxia.
2. Coroner had to cut the cord from the furrow around JBR's neck.
3. Cord was tied to a stick (paintbrush) that would clearly enhance a person's ability to grip it. That enhanced ability is not necessary if victim is already dead.
4. Cord was never linked to the R's by any evidentiary means.
5. Cord fiber was found in JBR's bed, which clearly indicates the cord was used for more than staging a crime scene in the basement.

Does the RDI claim that the garrote was a prop for a basement crime scene staging have any supporting arguments? If so, what are they?

 

[DeeDee249]

Yet again the cord fibers are mentioned as being found in the bed. Yet again I repeat that the fibers found in the bed are from the HEMP ROPE and not the white nylon cord.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Yet again the cord fibers are mentioned as being found in the bed. Yet again I repeat that the fibers found in the bed are from the HEMP ROPE and not the white nylon cord.

What argument do you have to support your claim that the fibers found in the bed are from HEMP ROPE and not the white nylon cord?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Some RDI claim that JonBenet was taken from her bed. Some believe she never made it to bed.

By the way, what witness saw her being taken from her bed? Did you really mean to say that? Also, what evidence proves the cord used on JonBenet matches the fibers found in her bed. Some of us recall that the fibers mentioned as being in her bed came from the rope and/or paper bag found in John Andrew's bedroom.

According to witnesses at the scene, JBR was last seen alive in her bed. The cord fibers found in her bed was presented as a SMF to a federal judge. Can you do better than 'some of us recall' to support the claim that fibers are from rope and not cord??

 

[BOESP]

According to witnesses at the scene, JBR was last seen alive in her bed. The cord fibers found in her bed was presented as a SMF to a federal judge. Can you do better than 'some of us recall' to support the claim that fibers are from rope and not cord??

Holdon, you have not answered my question. What "witnesses at the scene, JBR was last seen alive in her bed." I assume you mean John? Patsy? Burke? If my assumption is correct, it is a shame they didn't see the importance of witness testimony as you seem to see it. They didn't bother to answer questions from the police until April 1997.

You might want to do a search on this site in the archived messages. You will likely find answers to almost all your questions.

 

[JMO8778]

The IDI claim that the garrote was a murder weapon and not an improvised prop has more than two supporting arguments:

1. Coroner stated JBR died from asphyxia.

NO,he stated she died from asphyxia ***associated*** with cranial cerebral trauma...ie-the HEAD INJURY.To state otherwise is just the same old nonsense JR wrote in DOI.I can't believe he thought anyone would ever believe that whole ridiculous book !

Coroner had to cut the cord from the furrow around JBR's neck.

Is there proof of that? Possibly,I don't recall what was said about that rightoffhand,but it seems to me,as far as keeping evidence intact,it would have been removed opposite the way it was put on,unless it just wouldn't come off any other way,due to body fluids drying out around it.
But I'm not sure your point on that anyway...we know her airway was cut off,although no internal structures were damaged.Would an intruder care about this? NO.He'd have violently strangled her.

Cord was tied to a stick (paintbrush) that would clearly enhance a person's ability to grip it. That enhanced ability is not necessary if victim is already dead.

the garrote was said to not even be functional as one.and even if it was,she was strangled from behind...someone who didn't want to look at her face did that...again,would an intruder care about that?

Cord was never linked to the R's by any evidentiary means.

just more nonsense and grasping at straws.."absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence".Fact is,the cord WAS there,and we don't know if there was even any left over to begin with.Her arms were tied so loosely, it could have been done just to use up all the cord.JR LIED when he said her arms were tied tightly,when in fact,they were tied so loosely it wouldn't have restrained a baby ! THAT is proof of staging..if it wouldn't have restrained a baby,it **surely would not have restrained a 6 yo! But JR HAD to say that,in order to make it appear an intruder did it...I think Patsy staged that part,and he knew the staging was poorly done.
And he said he didn't see the cord around her neck or the stick..how dumb does he think everyone is?? He HAD to concentrate on her arms,because he knew they didn't appear to be tied as if a real KN did it ! A REAL KN would have tied her arms in front of her...not wait until she was in rigor and they could only be tied where they were last left !

The tape is proof of staging as well...NO impressions on it to indicate that she even tried to fight against it being on her mouth.

Cord fiber was found in JBR's bed, which clearly indicates the cord was used for more than staging a crime scene in the basement.

I'll let the others deal with that one..you won't even deal with the true facts.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

They didn't bother to answer questions from the police until April 1997.

You might want to do a search on this site in the archived messages. You will likely find answers to almost all your questions.

This is false.

Of course they answered police questions before April 1997. It makes sense though for RDI to make this claim, because it portrays character. Lacking hard evidence against the R's, defamation is the only thing RDI has to do. Eventually, RDI has to ask why there's no hard, corroborative evidence against the parents.

How come you're claiming that the cord fibers were rope fibers, and then telling me to go look for facts supporting rope fiber? There was no rope fiber in JBR's bed, thats an RDI fabrication.

 

[BOESP]

This is false.

Of course they answered police questions before April 1997. It makes sense though for RDI to make this claim, because it portrays character. Lacking hard evidence against the R's, its all RDI has.

How come you're claiming that the cord fibers were rope fibers, and then telling me to go look for facts supporting rope fiber? There was no rope fiber in JBR's bed, thats an RDI fabrication.

Holdon, according to DOI they gave blood and hair samples and they answered questions about the "kidnapping" when patrol officers and Linda Arndt talked to them at the home on the 26th. According to every other source I've seen, when it became a homicide they clammed up. They refused to talk with homicide detectives until April 1997. Many professionals and many lay persons do not believe that to be the action of an innocent parent who wants to find the killer of their child.

I said some RDIs believe thus-and-so .... and other RDIs believe thus-and-so. It isn't up to me to do research for you to show statements every RDI has made about cord or rope. That aside, you haven't proved your claim that any fibers were in the bed and certainly have not proved that if those fibers were in the bed they were consistent with the white cord around JonBenet's neck.

Folks interested in this case will read and decide for themselves. I recommend Forums For Justice, ACandyrose, TheSmokingGun archives and Real Sundance Kid websites. The video links, photo copies of original documents, and transcripts are full of first-hand information and reasonably accurate second-generation derivative documents. Unless you have connections to the Boulder DA office and the evidence locker I'd recommend you start at those sites. Good luck!

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Some of us recall that the fibers mentioned as being in her bed came from the rope and/or paper bag found in John Andrew's bedroom.

I will then disregard the claim that fibers in her bed came from rope, since it isn't supported by any testimony or forensics.

That the fibers in her bed came from the cord used to strangle JBR was a statement of material fact in a federal court. So if the fibers came from a rope and not the cord, then someone may have presented a falsehood to a federal court.

Why not admit there's no basis for the rope claim and move on?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

According to every other source I've seen, when it became a homicide they clammed up.

Also false. Rather, another deliberate generalization to portray character.

When JR carried JBR upstairs from the basement, the parents didn't stop talking to LE.

 

[BOESP]

I will then disregard the claim that fibers in her bed came from rope, since it isn't supported by any testimony or forensics.

That the fibers in her bed came from the cord used to strangle JBR was a statement of material fact in a federal court. So if the fibers came from a rope and not the cord, then someone may have presented a falsehood to a federal court.

Why not admit there's no basis for the rope claim and move on?

I don't recall from memory to be sure so I won't admit or submit anything about the cord being in her bed or not being her bed. You brought up the issue if I remember correctly so the onus of supporting your statement is on you not me. My view is that white cord fibers in the bed implies the cord found on JonBenet was applied upstairs. To do that then to use a broken paintbrush from the basement where brush fragments are found is, to me, more evidence of disorganization and staging, both of which point to a parent in my opinion.

I assume the "Federal Court" you refer to is Judge Carnes's U.S. District Court decision in a libel suit? If so, it was not a jury trial and it was not a trial designed to weigh the evidence about who killed JonBenet. If anyone wants to twist adjudication outcomes such as using this libel case to prove Ramsey innocence perhaps we should mention the Ramseys did not always win their lawsuits where they claimed someone defamed them -- they lost at least one of those suits and I've yet to see an RDI try to use that as a claim the Ramseys killed their daughter.

The entire body of evidence as known to the public points to the parents in my opinion, not to an Intruder. I could very well be wrong and wish that I am. Until the evidence locker becomes public, I see Steve Thomas's theory as presented in his book as the one supported by both privately and publicly known evidence.

 

[JMO8778]

I don't recall from memory to be sure so I won't admit or submit anything about the cord being in her bed or not being her bed. You brought up the issue if I remember correctly so the onus of supporting your statement is on you not me. My view is that white cord fibers in the bed implies the cord found on JonBenet was applied upstairs. To do that then to use a broken paintbrush from the basement where brush fragments are found is, to me, more evidence of disorganization and staging, both of which point to a parent in my opinion.

I assume the Federal Court you refer to is Judge Carnes decision in a defamation suit? If so, it was not a jury trial and it was not a trial designed to weigh the evidence about who killed JonBenet. If anyone wants to twist adjudication outcomes such as using this defamation case to prove Ramsey innocence perhaps we should mention the Ramseys did not always win their lawsuits where they claimed someone defamed them -- they lost at least one of those suits and I've yet to see an RDI try to use that as a claim the Ramseys killed their daughter.

The entire body of evidence as known to the public points to the parents in my opinion, not to an Intruder. I could very well be wrong and wish that I am. Until the evidence locker becomes public, I see Steve Thomas's theory as presented in his book as the one supported by the evidence as known to the public and evidence unknown to the public.

I agree,and I believe Melinda's fiance told Thomas a lot more than what was printed in his book about what happened that morning,other than just the time JR originally said JB was 'found'.I'm sure I read there was also something about he'd said Patsy standing in the front yard wearing fur boots and coat.And those boots were the ones never tested.Who knows in addition to those things,what all he may have told Thomas.There may have been a whole lot more to it,and what Thomas told was the short version.Whatever he said,I really don't see how he could think that Patsy was innocent,and that JR wasn't covering for her.
Now when JR writes in DOI that Patsy saw him and ran towards him after he told the older kids JB was gone,to me that says it all...he all but flat out called Stewart a liar !! I can only picture the totally flabbergasted look on his face if he read DOI,and I'm betting he did.