The actual vs. desired outcome

[JMO8778]

Uh, no. Not Patsy's thumprint, and not even close to Patsy's thumprint.

denial is a lovely place...

The idea that a shirt collar was used before the ligature to strangle JBR is just ridiculous, IMO.

so we are supposed to take your word for it over a Dr? No one said she was strangled to death w the shirt...she was strangled w it before the head wound,she was knocked unconcious from the head injury..not dead,but still breathing,then ligature strangled,per Dr Spitz.

 

[JMO8778]

Wrong on all points, IMO.

Written by someone not worried about leaving 2 1/2 pages of handwriting samples, because they knew their writing was not subject to comparison.

Someone out of the country.

I'd say she didn't make it fast enough... ...and be sure to look at the chart in the second link: http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6404
http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1494&stc=1

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

denial is a lovely place...


so we are supposed to take your word for it over a Dr? No one said she was strangled to death w the shirt...she was strangled w it before the head wound,she was knocked unconcious from the head injury..not dead,but still breathing,then ligature strangled,per Dr Spitz.

A Dr. never said it was PR's thumbnail, you did. A Dr. who attended JBR did say petechial hemorrhages were above and below the ligature furrow. According to you, Dr. Spitz corroborates by saying she was ligature strangled while still breathing.

Did you want to talk about how the garrote and 2nd ligature were just props? Because this seems to be the actual evidence that counters that idea.

 

[JMO8778]

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2056&stc=1

and here's another good one re: the ransom note.

 

[DeeDee249]

I keep thinking about that triangular red mark on JBR's neck. I think the autopsy describes it as a "triangular abrasion". I also think this is the same mark described as a "thumbprint" here, though I myself would not describe it that way. I have seen on one of the sites side-by-side photos of JBR's neck, showing the ligature furrow and the "red triangular abrasion" right next to another autopsy photo of a woman strangled with a scarf. The same "triangular red" mark appears on her neck, and it is said that it was caused by the pressure from the thicker fabric of the scarf as it was twisted tight to choke the victim.
I know there has been from time to time a mention of the scarf that was seen in crime scene photos (was it seen on the basement washer/dryer or counter?) and the fact that a scarf was placed in the coffin with JBR, and the fact that PR gave scarves as gifts to some of their men friends.
Not much has been said, though, about the possibility of a scarf being used initially to strangle her. Is this a viable theory in anyone's mind here?
I am not discounting it, but I wonder if the same triangular mark would be made by twisting the fabric of the turtleneck? Maybe it's not so much a thumbprint as much as it is a mark from a twisted cotton shirt. And having done that, possibly that red mark showed up well before the head bash and her subsequent loss of consciousness. So there is a possibility that an UNINTENTIONAL strangulation had occurred and then needed to be covered up. So that could be the reason for the garrotte. The stager then has 2 purposes for the garrotte, first to hide the face that something else had actually caused the stranguation, without realizing that the thin cord used would not actually make that red triangular mark- and second, to provide an immediately visible cause of death, as the skull fracture was not apparent (and SOMETHING had to be seen as the reason for a dead child in the basement- they couldn't say "natural causes".)

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Leave it to RDI to take what doctors describe as a triangular abraision and go ahead and call it PR's thumbprint. That's just typical.

One thing's for sure, the garrote ligature wasn't just a prop.

 

[UKGuy]

I keep thinking about that triangular red mark on JBR's neck. I think the autopsy describes it as a "triangular abrasion". I also think this is the same mark described as a "thumbprint" here, though I myself would not describe it that way. I have seen on one of the sites side-by-side photos of JBR's neck, showing the ligature furrow and the "red triangular abrasion" right next to another autopsy photo of a woman strangled with a scarf. The same "triangular red" mark appears on her neck, and it is said that it was caused by the pressure from the thicker fabric of the scarf as it was twisted tight to choke the victim.
I know there has been from time to time a mention of the scarf that was seen in crime scene photos (was it seen on the basement washer/dryer or counter?) and the fact that a scarf was placed in the coffin with JBR, and the fact that PR gave scarves as gifts to some of their men friends.
Not much has been said, though, about the possibility of a scarf being used initially to strangle her. Is this a viable theory in anyone's mind here?
I am not discounting it, but I wonder if the same triangular mark would be made by twisting the fabric of the turtleneck? Maybe it's not so much a thumbprint as much as it is a mark from a twisted cotton shirt. And having done that, possibly that red mark showed up well before the head bash and her subsequent loss of consciousness. So there is a possibility that an UNINTENTIONAL strangulation had occurred and then needed to be covered up. So that could be the reason for the garrotte. The stager then has 2 purposes for the garrotte, first to hide the face that something else had actually caused the stranguation, without realizing that the thin cord used would not actually make that red triangular mark- and second, to provide an immediately visible cause of death, as the skull fracture was not apparent (and SOMETHING had to be seen as the reason for a dead child in the basement- they couldn't say "natural causes".)

DeeDee249,
The abrasions beneath the ligature furrow, are most likely to be, what is termed, fabric abrasions, these commonly occur when assailants attempt to overpower their victim by manual asphyxiation.

Also the staged aspect of her asphyxiation e.g. the garrote could not have caused the lower abrasions, since it was constructed using fixed knotting, affixed from the back of her neck, added to this is the detail that the fabric abrasions are not circumferential, they not traverse the back of the neck, which corroborates the initial point .

Scarf, turtleneck or nightgown, is a moot point, but imo the forensic evidence suggests JonBenet was initially manually strangled?

This was later staged as a garrote asphyxiation, and left in plain view. This is in distincton to her sexual assault which was cleaned up and hidden from view.

So the staging reflects different priorities, particularly in her upper torso where no attempt was made to reduce the visual impact to mirror that of a failed abduction scenario?

as the skull fracture was not apparent (and SOMETHING had to be seen as the reason for a dead child in the basement- they couldn't say "natural causes".)

The ligature on its own would be sufficient for this purpose?

 

[UKGuy]

Leave it to RDI to take what doctors describe as a triangular abraision and go ahead and call it PR's thumbprint. That's just typical.

One thing's for sure, the garrote ligature wasn't just a prop.

Holdontoyourhat,
The garrote was created using fixed knotting, it would not have worked as advertised, if it had then JonBenet's hair should have been torn out from its roots, since it was embedded in the knotting, also her necklace would have left an imprint where the garrote pressure had increased. All of which demonstrate that the garrote was indeed a prop, it was not required if the intention was to asphyxiate JonBenet, at its simplest this could be done manually or by the use of the ligature on its own!

 

[BOESP]

As far as JR molesting his daughter- we'll never know for sure if it was that or PR's vigorous cleansing of JBR, but he LOOKS sleazy enough to do it.

Back a few pages, there was a mention of the skull puncture and lack of autopsy mention of severly damaged brain matter. There was an example given of a 300 lb man swinging the flashlight or bat. But this was NOT a 300 lb man- but PR who was likely less than half that weight. That makes a big difference. Someone PR's size probably could have caused that fracture while not damaging the brain matter. And she probably didn't raise her arm back into a full-over-the-head swing, either.
Yes, this case would have gotten a BIG break if what caused the skull damage was known. Today's forensics could have tested the edges of the skull as well as her scalp for fragments of plactic/metal/rubber/porcelain.
Actually, forensics THEN could have done it, with more time. Hmmmm...who was it that refused to keep the body for further testing? Oh, yeah...Meyer. Think he was leaned on? You betcha. Oh, and who accused the police of holding the body for "ransom" ? Oh yeah, the DA's office. They wanted her OUT of their custody and buried. Then they could refuse to order a timely exhumation, which would have also answered the "stun-gun" questions----case over.

DeeDee, based on physics, an 8.5" fracture that crosses suture lines in a pliable skull isn't likely to come from a low velocity strike that leaves relatively little damage to the underlying matter. The strike probably would generate a linear fracture but not one that travels from the occipital region to the brow line. The wound at the contact point appears to be from a relatively low pressure injury from blunt trauma because there is not enough mutilation of the underlying tissue and the wound isn't deep enough, which is what one would expect to see in a high velocity strike, no matter what the assailant weighed. The length implies high pressure was needed to make the fracture travel the distance it traveled. If it were any other combination other than low velocity/high pressure the wound would likely look differently internally and externally.

By the way, I found an exemplar on www.realsundancekid.com from Patsy's pre-December 1996 writings. I can't remember what it was but it gave her height and weight. Her height 5' 4" and her weight looked like 130 pounds, but the "3" was unclear.

Sorry to preach and I'll take my medicine if I'm wrong.

 

[Ames]

yes,it looks like something Patsy wrote in between cooking the mashed potatoes and the green beans ! after which I bet she used that good southern common sense of hers and got some rest ! comon' now,really...who do you think you're kidding?

oh,I think we can safely say it was staged!

no no no..that's Patsy's thumbprint on her neck,as per Dr Spitz determining she was manually strangled with her shirt collar first.

I believe Boesp here when she says it's a high pressure/low velocity wound..I think an object would have broken the skin,amongst other things.If JB was thrown into a hard,unmovable object,something had to give somewhere,and it wasn't going to be the hard,unmovable object.

I don't and anyway,that's just plain silly.It was determined to be written by a southern female;the handwriting alone appears female,much less to get into the specifics of what it says...it would have been scary if perhaps she'd written it block style,short and to the point,as in:

GOT YOUR KID.1 MILL GETS HER BACK.
WILL CALL.DON'T CALL POLICE !

See? that sounds real...Patsy wrote a story only someone who was desperate to save her own arse could write..how in heck she thought anyone could ever believe it to be real is beyond me.

Not only did the experts agree that it was written by a woman, but JOHN also said that he believed it was too! HMMM...(another set-up perhaps? By John who is ready to throw Patsy under the bus, before HE goes to jail?)

 

[Solace]

Uh, no. Not Patsy's thumprint, and not even close to Patsy's thumprint.

Petechial hemorrhages are all over JBR's neck above and below the ligature furrow, according to the autopsy report. Those are red pinpoints that happen when an airway is cut off. The idea that a shirt collar was used before the ligature to strangle JBR is just ridiculous, IMO.

When she was strangled with the garrotte she was still barely alive, although Patsy and John did not know that, hence the hemmorrhaging.

Also, Patsy wrote the note with here LEFT HAND. She could use both.

 

[Solace]

Not only did the experts agree that it was written by a woman, but JOHN also said that he believed it was too! HMMM...(another set-up perhaps? By John who is ready to throw Patsy under the bus, before HE goes to jail?)

John also said the handwriting looked similar to Patsy's and that is why everyone thought she wrote it.

 

[Ames]

Wrong on all points, IMO.

Written by someone not worried about leaving 2 1/2 pages of handwriting samples, because they knew their writing was not subject to comparison.

Someone out of the country.

If its so obvious...that there was actually one, two or three intruders...then why...is the Ramsey's STILL TO THIS DAY...under an umbrella of suspicion???

 

[Solace]

Leave it to RDI to take what doctors describe as a triangular abraision and go ahead and call it PR's thumbprint. That's just typical.

One thing's for sure, the garrote ligature wasn't just a prop.

It was a prop. She was near death.

The triangular abrasion is exactly the same as the one my son came home with after sparring at Jiu Jitsu. I asked him how he got that and he said his sparring partner grabbed his Gi and twisted it leaving the nail part of his thumbprint on his neck. Looks like a triangle, just like JonBenet's. SOMEONE TWISTED her shirt and was strangling her in a rage.

 

[Ames]

Uh, no. Not Patsy's thumprint, and not even close to Patsy's thumprint.

Petechial hemorrhages are all over JBR's neck above and below the ligature furrow, according to the autopsy report. Those are red pinpoints that happen when an airway is cut off. The idea that a shirt collar was used before the ligature to strangle JBR is just ridiculous, IMO.

And I suppose that YOU have way more education than DR. SPITZ? Right?

 

[BOESP]

I keep thinking about that triangular red mark on JBR's neck. I think the autopsy describes it as a "triangular abrasion". I also think this is the same mark described as a "thumbprint" here, though I myself would not describe it that way. I have seen on one of the sites side-by-side photos of JBR's neck, showing the ligature furrow and the "red triangular abrasion" right next to another autopsy photo of a woman strangled with a scarf. The same "triangular red" mark appears on her neck, and it is said that it was caused by the pressure from the thicker fabric of the scarf as it was twisted tight to choke the victim.
I know there has been from time to time a mention of the scarf that was seen in crime scene photos (was it seen on the basement washer/dryer or counter?) and the fact that a scarf was placed in the coffin with JBR, and the fact that PR gave scarves as gifts to some of their men friends.
Not much has been said, though, about the possibility of a scarf being used initially to strangle her. Is this a viable theory in anyone's mind here?
I am not discounting it, but I wonder if the same triangular mark would be made by twisting the fabric of the turtleneck? Maybe it's not so much a thumbprint as much as it is a mark from a twisted cotton shirt. And having done that, possibly that red mark showed up well before the head bash and her subsequent loss of consciousness. So there is a possibility that an UNINTENTIONAL strangulation had occurred and then needed to be covered up. So that could be the reason for the garrotte. The stager then has 2 purposes for the garrotte, first to hide the face that something else had actually caused the stranguation, without realizing that the thin cord used would not actually make that red triangular mark- and second, to provide an immediately visible cause of death, as the skull fracture was not apparent (and SOMETHING had to be seen as the reason for a dead child in the basement- they couldn't say "natural causes".)

Above in first bold -- that seems like the most likely action in my view.

Second bold -- I agree with that too. I can only speculate, but whoever applied the ligature may have thought JonBenet was already dead. My second speculation would be if not dead then done to hasten death for" merciful" reasons.

Side comment -- an Intruder is not likely to need two methods to purposely or accidentally kill a small child; either act would do the job. To those who counter with "the killer was a sadistic pedophile playing out a fantasy," I'll strongly disagree. The strangulation and molestation are not consistent with what is known about sadists, pedophiles, murderers, and especially any combination of the three. Neither is the scene consistent with entry from anyone who would fail to follow through with a planned kidnapping.

 

[Solace]

It was the most brutal ransom note in history in terms of violence directed at a child.

Any arguments?

That the crime scene and RN were brutal isn't the question, because thats obvious. The question is whether the brutality evident at the crime scene is real or staged.

Its probably real, because the hemmorhage on JBR's neck is evidence the ligature was on her before she died. The hemmorhaging is evidence that she was still alive, correct. It is not evidence that it was NOT staged. She was hit on the head and barely alive, but she was alive and then the staging ensued. The tape was placed over an unconscious JONBENET's mouth - as is evident by the perfect indentation of her lips. This is staging.

There is also no evidence to indicate what object caused the damage to JBR's head. Thats a big unknown in the accident/coverup scenario. Kinda like the cord that came and went with the crime. There is evidence to indicate that the damage to JBR's head was caused by a violent push against an object, per BOESP's fantastic post. There was no damage to the tissue under the skull, as would have happened if it she were hit with a flashlight or some such instrument.

BTW maybe you live in a small town, because there are men who sound more feminine than most women, and vice-versa! There's no way you could infer sex just from the RN. You have to just be deciding between JR and PR.

This is not 1400 Holdon. We are in an era where writing can be evaluated to tell if it is written by a man or a woman. In fact there is a test on the net where it does that. You write a paragraph and 100% of the time it will tell whether the writer is a man or a woman.

 

[BOESP]

Wrong on all points, IMO.

Written by someone not worried about leaving 2 1/2 pages of handwriting samples, because they knew their writing was not subject to comparison.

Someone out of the country.

Written by someone who was used to talking their way out of and in to things, in my opinion. Someone with a flare for theatrics.

 

[BOESP]

Leave it to RDI to take what doctors describe as a triangular abraision and go ahead and call it PR's thumbprint. That's just typical.

One thing's for sure, the garrote ligature wasn't just a prop.

You are generalizing again, Holdon. That weakens your arguments when you do that and I am really trying to see the evidence as discussed here in a fair light.

I would expect a ligature used in the manner you imply to leave a lot of internal damage. This one didn't (and, no, I'm not referring to the intact hyoid bone).

Have you ever thought that maybe even a parent would want to "hold the rope" long enough to make sure their suffering baby was dead?

 

[Squishified]

Any thoughts on Patsy causing the head wound and after telling John, he uses the ligature to stage the crime (or put JB "out of her misery")?
This thought just came to me now (although it's probably been discussed before ).