The danger of a closed mind

[narlacat]

<<The only household chore Patsy did was launder JB wet sheets and she had to be fustrated by it . Getting her up and trying to get her to go during the night , cleaning her up when she was too late. The whole ordeal>>

But Patsy didn't get up to JB in the middle of the night when she had wet the bed, that is why JB had her own flashlight...to get out of her wet bed and go into Burke's room and jump in his spare bed or use her own spare bed.
It was obviously not cool for JB to go to her parent's room as she chose the longer route to Burkes room.
As far as I can tell the only thing Patsy did was get up in the morning and chuck the sheets in the washer.
I do believe JB's toileting problem bothered Patsy though..for a start alot of her friends knew about JB's problem, even FW was allowed to change her...it must have been embarrasing to her and god knows she was all about how everything looked to everyone else.

 

[sissi]

I understand that both of you believe this, but where is the incident, the spoken word, the experience, the proof that anything close to this happened?

Wecht said, it appeared she had been molested within 72 hours of her death, along with the molestation that occurred at the time of death. Why would grandpop be the choice, he was not alone with the child during this time. Who was?
Patsy herself Sharper, was not alone with Jonbenet, she was busy and readying for the holiday.
Maybe she was molested before her murder, it's not a fact, but let's consider it, who was alone with this child in the two days before Christmas.
I know she was alone with Arianna for hours on the 23rd, she was visiting the Kostaniks on Christmas eve, she played with other children on Christmas day. Did she go to the Barnhills alone? Did Fleet watch her during those last days? Was she watched carefully while at the Whites? There is a possibility that someone did molest her, but who , and how did they slip away from others with her? There have been many accounts of chlidren being molested while their parents hosted parties and prayer meetings downstairs, anything is possible. Why suspect Patsy or Grandpop? Megan Kanka was lured with the thought of seeing a puppy. Can no one consider that Jonbenet may have been lured somewhere as well, and quickly silenced before she "told".

 

[sharpar]

I think Grandpa because he would have been the most likely abuser of patsy
patsy's whole demeanor changed when questioned about abuse in her childhood, voice , she actually physically tried to shrink herself according the the witness and acted and sounded like a little girl. Some believe she disassociated even.

Grandpa was around Boulder during the holidays and left for Atlanta right after the murder.

Incest is a hidden secret and families go to great lenghts to keep it that way and very seldom ever willingly revealed .

Nedra's comment she was only a little molested . She knew it - Patsy
no big surprise denied any knowledge of it. I find it impossible to believe
that if Nedra knew that patsy didnt .

Patsy could have been alone with her any night she choose after John
took his sleeping medication and Burke was in bed asleep too.
Patsy out of any of them had the most opportunity the most motive, she was
the only person on record who was having problems with her daughter.

No I cant entertain the idea that someone else lured her or it was done
while away from home . No evidence whatoever for that not even a logical theory. They wouldnt cover for an outsider .........

In my mind it was patsy and there is nothing that rules her out which is why she has never been cleared .

 

[UKGuy]

Apart for the Ramsey statements I dont think there is any forensic evidence to demonstrate JonBenet was ever in bed?

The Ramsey's statements suggest JonBenet on immediate arrival back from the Whites, was placed sleeping in her bed, but the pineapple tells another story e.g. she was awake!

The Ramsey statements at various points in the timeline, wrt JonBenet, contradict each other and at others are retracted.

There is no forensic evidence to indicate an intruder was involved!

The bedwetting or toilet rage theory assumes JonBenet engages with PR, but JonBenet may never have slept in her bed that night?

Did PR awaken to JonBenet and Burke snacking, was there an altercation at the breakfast bar?

A lot of people seem to plumb for some kind of rage triggered by underlying familial sexual abuse.

Has this replaced ST's toilet rage theory?

 

[sissi]

Sharper this is interesting, when and where did you see Patsy behave like this.
Sharper quote..<I think Grandpa because he would have been the most likely abuser of patsy
patsy's whole demeanor changed when questioned about abuse in her childhood, voice , she actually physically tried to shrink herself according the the witness and acted and sounded like a little girl. Some believe she disassociated even>.

Or if you didn't , who did, who states that this occurred?

 

[sissi]

But that 'traumatized victim', as you call her, had no problems at all in telling the national television audience a few days after the death of her daughter that she was not angry at the killer and that she wanted to move on with her life.
This was probably one of the few occasions where Patsy told the truth: she was not angry at the killer (= herself)!

Where and when did she say this?

 

[sharpar]

Apart for the Ramsey statements I dont think there is any forensic evidence to demonstrate JonBenet was ever in bed?

The Ramsey's statements suggest JonBenet on immediate arrival back from the Whites, was placed sleeping in her bed, but the pineapple tells another story e.g. she was awake!

The Ramsey statements at various points in the timeline, wrt JonBenet, contradict each other and at others are retracted.

There is no forensic evidence to indicate an intruder was involved!

The bedwetting or toilet rage theory assumes JonBenet engages with PR, but JonBenet may never have slept in her bed that night?

Did PR awaken to JonBenet and Burke snacking, was there an altercation at the breakfast bar?

A lot of people seem to plumb for some kind of rage triggered by underlying familial sexual abuse.

Has this replaced ST's toilet rage theory?

I never mentioned the bed in my theory. I think the rage is correct but I
dont believe it was bedwetting that was the trigger . It was something much
more upsetting and has to do with patsy not anything JB did .

 

[narlacat]

Sharper this is interesting, when and where did you see Patsy behave like this.
Sharper quote..<I think Grandpa because he would have been the most likely abuser of patsy
patsy's whole demeanor changed when questioned about abuse in her childhood, voice , she actually physically tried to shrink herself according the the witness and acted and sounded like a little girl. Some believe she disassociated even>.

Or if you didn't , who did, who states that this occurred?

Sissi
I think it was in one of the R's interviews, I'm not sure which one though.
Maybe it was the interview where Patsy was asked about John in ref to JB and sexual abuse and she said something along the lines of 'Nedra slept in JB's room so he wouldn't have had a chance'.

 

[sharpar]

Sharper this is interesting, when and where did you see Patsy behave like this.
Sharper quote..<I think Grandpa because he would have been the most likely abuser of patsy
patsy's whole demeanor changed when questioned about abuse in her childhood, voice , she actually physically tried to shrink herself according the the witness and acted and sounded like a little girl. Some believe she disassociated even>.

Or if you didn't , who did, who states that this occurred?

The whole story is on this forumn - do a search of the threads and you will find it all laid out chapter and verse with quotes - page numbers the documentaton is there I just dont remember all the particulars . What was interesting to me is that it had occurred. It is a fact .

 

[aussiesheila]

There are debates that go on everywhere, this forum is certainly not the worst, or the best, in controlling personal attacks. IMO , each of us has something to say, because we ARE interested in justice for Jonbenet. Ideas can be attacked until the literal cows come home, and that's fine, it's when the "person" is ridiculed that I find offensive. Yes, it has happened to me often, and I do respect the moderator for "normally" removing it. I enjoy debate, we can ditch a lot of misinformation on both sides by pulling up evidence to back our stand. But, there can be no debate if the ideas are quelled by belittling the person.

Thank you Sissi, you have put into words my feelings on this subject perfectly.

 

[aussiesheila]

Sissi -
Unlike RR I cant give you chapter and verse of lies or things but I will
give you my theory. These are my opinions.

Patsy I believe was sexually abusing JB for two reasons; It was punishment for the bedwetting ( that is what patsy told herlef I believe) and by punishing JB she quieted the psychological anxiety in her own mind. The bedwetting wasnt the reason but if offered her the excuse to do what made patsy felt she needed to do to feel calmer better less anxious.
The only household chore Patsy did was launder JB wet sheets and she had to be fustrated by it . Getting her up and trying to get her to go during the night , cleaning her up when she was too late. The whole ordeal . I believe that Patsy herself was abused as a child and the abused find someone or something to abuse if the issues are never dealt with sometimes even when they are. The sexual abuse was not for sexual gratification but offered some sort of relief psychologically to Patsy. By punishing JB it had a direct benefit to Patsy .

Hand in Hand with these issues was an inability to decphier the boundaries between herself and her daughter. A good example: Sexualizing your 6 year old for crowns and sashes. JB was being groomed to achieve a goal that was denied her mother and her aunt. JB was serving as a tool to satisfy her mothers failed ambitions.
Wanting to dress her daughter just like her can be harmless or it can be
an indication of a mother not recognizing her daughter is not a mirror of herself but a unique and separate person. I dont think it was benign in Patsy' s case. The my twin doll can also be seen as an indicator, Patsy thought it was " the gift " JB was said not to be enthralled with it .

Mommy produced a replica - a lifeless parody of the real girl . A replica that looked like her but had none of the issues - the doll didnt wet the bed -the doll wore what patsy had instructed the maker to put on her and the doll would not be desirable to the abuser of patsy as a girl .

What triggered the murder ? No one will know for sure until the murderer
tells but i suspect along with all the other things going on in the family
that the childhood abuser of patsy was going to be on the scene sometime
during the holiday. That he either suggested an activity that precluded patsy's own abuse or JB was at the age the abuse started for Patsy. Whatever set the murder into play the impact was monumental and horriffic.
Patsy may have been furious with JB because JB now had the attention of the abuser. He was going to be around her at christmas and its JB fault. If the abuse happened to patsy because she craved the attention of the abuser and she may have gone out the way to attract his attention as a child in a innocent way and thus assumes JB has done the same thing. Alot of these emotions and feelings arent logically rational but at play all the same.
JB murder had little to do with JB and everythng to do with the Patsy's emotional psychological state of mind.

sharpar, I find your theory interesting and I agree with what you say about Patsy's unhealthy relationship with her daughter, although I wouldn't go as far as saying that Patsy was perpetrating the sexual abuse. I do however, agree that there was a complex web of unhealthy relationships within that Paugh family. Actually I think I've just said I've agreed with everything you said except that whereas you think Patsy became the sexual abuser of her own daughter, I think Patsy became the mother who stood aside and let others become the abusers of her daughter. Either way I believe that what happened within that Paugh family laid the foundations of what utimately happened to JonBenet, which I think you just said too.

 

[Jayelles]

btw, I would love to see some brainstorming on here. Most on here are very good at writing interesting paragraphs that are grammatically correct, spell checked and ready for press, but if Patsy did it, convince others by shouting out the very behaviors that you believe led up to her murdering her child. I would like to see the lies pointed out. I would like to have it explained why Steve Thomas withdrew all of his information during a deposition, and why he got the "pass" to either lie or suffer from memory loss and why a traumatized victim , a mother of a murdered child , medicated and destroyed must remember every detail of what was in the drawer and what was on the table.

Don't you understand that brainstorming is exactly what happens here? Brainstormnig is when DIFFERENT minds bring DIFFERENT ideas to the table and NO idea is rejected. You don't get that on any other forum - certainly not over yonder where only SIMILAR minds with SIMILAR opinions are permitted. That isn't brainstorming Sissi - that's a collection of nodding dogs.

 

[narlacat]

The people at Jameson's forum are not interested in discussing the evidence at all. They remind me of religious fanatics, with whom one can't discuss objectively either. Their agenda is attacking people who happen to disagree with their blind belief in the Ramseys' innocence. They even sniff around on other message boards and then attack people who don't even post on their own forum. And the rhethoric of that fanatical clique reminds me of brainwashing tactics.

I am not a member at Jamesons forum and don't even read there really so I was a bit surprised when a friend who is a member there told me that Jameson had taken one of my posts and was attacking it over at her forum.
Why on earth would she want to steal one of my posts!
She is obviously not very clever....I can think of heaps of peoples posts that I would pinch before any of mine

 

[Jayelles]

btw, I would love to see some brainstorming on here. Most on here are very good at writing interesting paragraphs that are grammatically correct, spell checked and ready for press, but if Patsy did it, convince others by shouting out the very behaviors that you believe led up to her murdering her child. I would like to see the lies pointed out. I would like to have it explained why Steve Thomas withdrew all of his information during a deposition, and why he got the "pass" to either lie or suffer from memory loss and why a traumatized victim , a mother of a murdered child , medicated and destroyed must remember every detail of what was in the drawer and what was on the table.

I'd also like to ask a question. Why are Ramsey supporters unable to see that most "BORG" posters don't think that Jonbenet was intentionally killed? Most "BORG" poster believe it to be an accident with a cover-up. Therefore, your request for proof of behaviour which would indicate that the Ramseys were potential murderers is completely inappropriate. What you should be asking for is evidence that the Ramseys are capable of a cover-up. Accidents have no "motive". Cover-ups do. The Ramseys may have had no motive to kill their daughter, but do you think they would have a motive for covering up a tragic and embarassing accident?

I simply cannot understand why the RST repeatedly suggest that the "BORG" are accusing the Ramseys of cold-blooded murder. IMO, the RST's failure to perceive that this is not the case, is highly indicative of an inability to listen or comprehend what people are saying. e.g.

RST : What makes you think the Ramseys are capable of murder?

BORG: Wedon't think it was murder - We think it was a tragic accident.

RST: But sHow us what past behaviours of the ramseys would lead you to believe they are capable of killing their daughter.

BORG: We don't think they meant to do it.

RST: Can't you see the kind of people they are?

BORG: Accidents can happen to anyone.

RST: Patsy was a loving mother...

BORG: Yes and accidents can happen to anyone.

RST: So why do you think they are capable of cold-blooded murder?

BORG: We don't. As we said, we think they covered up a tragic accident.

RST: Just give me one piece of evidence that they would do such a thing. Do you think it was because she wasn't going to grow tall enough to be Miss America? ...

(get the picture?)

 

[rashomon]

I simply cannot understand why the RST repeatedly suggest that the "BORG" are accusing the Ramseys of cold-blooded murder. IMO, the RST's failure to perceive that this is not the case, is highly indicative of an inability to listen or comprehend what people are saying. e.g.

RST : What makes you think the Ramseys are capable of murder?

BORG: Wedon't think it was murder - We think it was a tragic accident.

RST: But sHow us what past behaviours of the ramseys would lead you to believe they are capable of killing their daughter.

BORG: We don't think they meant to do it.

RST: Can't you see the kind of people they are?

BORG: Accidents can happen to anyone.

RST: Patsy was a loving mother...

BORG: Yes and accidents can happen to anyone.

RST: So why do you think they are capable of cold-blooded murder?

BORG: We don't. As we said, we think they covered up a tragic accident.

RST: Just give me one piece of evidence that they would do such a thing. Do you think it was because she wasn't going to grow tall enough to be Miss America? ...

(get the picture?)

Jayelles, great example of the RST's way of 'discussing' this case, and their 'arguments'. For that's exactly how the rabid Ramsey supporters operate. They rehash the murder topic because that way they can sidestep the fact that unintentional killings can also happen to people "who love their children" and who never would have thought that one day their child would die at their own hands because they, in a moment so brief, lost control.

Throwing in the same sentence again and again as if you hadn't heard the previous answer is also a primitive rhetorical tactic to throw the other person off-balance.
John Ramsey used this on Larry King Live too when confronted with Steve Thomas. JR asked Thomas to present his theory, and Thomas did so, in clear words. After some cross-talk, Ramsey asks Thomas again what his theory was. Thomas should have asked Ramsey if he had a hearing problem.

 

[sissi]

I can understand a few thinking it was an accident, however, where did the impression originate that Patsy wouldn't call for help or an ambulance. What about her personality suggests that she would rather molest, garrotte, and brutalize a dying child? Stage an accident, lay her at the bottom of the spiral steps, if she was strangled one's imagination could probably cover that as well. Why would a parent stage a horrendous murder to cover up an accident?

 

[Jayelles]

I can understand a few thinking it was an accident, however, where did the impression originate that Patsy wouldn't call for help or an ambulance. What about her personality suggests that she would rather molest, garrotte, and brutalize a dying child? Stage an accident, lay her at the bottom of the spiral steps, if she was strangled one's imagination could probably cover that as well. Why would a parent stage a horrendous murder to cover up an accident?

Depends on what the accident was Sissi and how it would be perceived by others. All injuries have to be explained. We none of us know the sequence of events that occurred that night.

You are asking about Patsy - but Patsy was just one of four people who were in the house that night. You would have to consider the same for all of them. In the end, it would all bottle down to what the alternatives were going to be and which alternative offered the most damage limitation. Making it look like an intruder did it could save their necks and keep their family together for their son's sake. I don't think RDIs think the Ramseys planned the murder or that they necessarily enjoyed performing the cover-up, but for any staging to be convincing, it wouod have to look like the act of an intruder and NOT be something that people would believe a parent capable of. The whole point of staging is that it must point AWAY from the real perps.

I wholly believe that if someone was setting the ramseys up for this, then they would have made it look like the parents did it - not like an intruder did it.

 

[sharpar]

The whole story is on this forumn - do a search of the threads and you will find it all laid out chapter and verse with quotes - page numbers the documentaton is there I just dont remember all the particulars . What was interesting to me is that it had occurred. It is a fact .

On a candy rose is the transcript of the police interview with Patsy on June 26-27 1998 . She denies the abuse what is interesting though is the video
from CourtTV . The link is on the same page with the transcripts of the
interview.

I think in PMPT is a descripition by a witness of the change in Patsy's demeanor during this interview.

 

[sharpar]

The whole story is on this forumn - do a search of the threads and you will find it all laid out chapter and verse with quotes - page numbers the documentaton is there I just dont remember all the particulars . What was interesting to me is that it had occurred. It is a fact .

The transcripts are on a candy rose - interview with Patsy June 25-26-27 1998 .
No Surprise
Patsy denies the abuse. What is interesting is her entire demeanor changes which you cant see on the transcript. The link for the video from Courtv is at the top of the page. Hope it works for you.

Perhaps the narrative of this whole thing was in PMPT but not postive.

 

[rashomon]

Where and when did she say this?

According to Steve Thomas' book (p. 88), it was on the Ramseys' New Years' Day 1997 interview on CNN:

"The Ramseys also told the national television audience that they were "not angry" about the murder of their daughter and wanted to move on with thier lives."

It was the murder of their daughter that they were not angry about (not the killer, as I had misquoted, sorry) - what a strange statement for parents to make whose child was brutally killed! Saying that they wanted to move on with their lives six days after the murder is pretty odd too.
This BTW was also the interview where Patsy Ramsey mentioned O. J. Simpson and Susan Smith - also pretty revealing imo.