The Noise Level in the Ramsey Home...

[aussiesheila]

"If I had to guess at what they looked more like to me, it would be cigarette burns."

Thank you BeeBee... that's what I said not too long ago in a previous post. It's just a guess,but it sure does resemble cigarette burns.

Burns, yes, that is what they look like. Could the fact that they are all different in shape and intensity be because, as SuperDave suggests she tried to wriggle away each time they applied the gun to her? Could the burn on her face be extra large because one of them held her head tightly still while they pressed the gun on her skin for a longer period of time?

 

[Earthbound Misfit I]

DW didn't take DVD out of the house immediately. He was trapped in DVD's bedroom for at least an hour and got out only after the parents went to bed after their friends left their house.

 

[BBB167893]

"DW didn't take DVD out of the house immediately. He was trapped in DVD's bedroom for at least an hour and got out only after the parents went to bed after their friends left their house."

Some of the police don't think he was even in the house, RKnowley.

"if JonBenet had screamed if stunned, IMO that house was so big, she wouldn't have been heard. In her room and especially in the basement."

But how would a stranger know that?

"To me they didn't look like stun gun marks."

Me, neither.

"OK, so you are saying that you don't think she was stungunned."

Right. Neither do a score of pathologists.

"I was convinced by his logic."

So was I, until I got one of them.

"Could the fact that they are all different in shape and intensity be because, as SuperDave suggests she tried to wriggle away each time they applied the gun to her?"

It's not a question of her trying to wriggle away. A stun gun works by making the muscles work overtime with great inefficiency. The person being zapped will be flopping like a hooked fish.

 

[rashomon]

To me they didn't look like stun gun marks. Or snaps from a piece of clothing.( How ridiculous coming from Werner Spitz.)

Why do you think what Spitz said is ridiculous?

But these marks in the photo indeed look like cigarette burns, at least to us laypeople. And I don't think it was necessary to hold JB's head so that she wouldn't move - I can imagine they were applied to her already unconscious/nearly dead body for staging purposes.
But then again, wouldn't a doctor performing the autopsy easily have identified them as being burn marks (I suppose burn marks have specific characteristics)?

 

[IrishMist]

Why do you think what Spitz said is ridiculous?

But these marks indeed look like cigarette burns, at least in the photo. And I don't think it was necessary to hold JB's head so that she wouldn't move - I believe they were applied to her already unconscious/nearly dead body for staging purposes.
But then again, wouldn't a doctor performing the autopsy have recognized a burn mark as such?

I think a doctor would recognize a cigarette burn mark. It is, unfortunately, a common sight in abuse cases.

But, I'll tell ya. I don't think they look like cigarette burn marks at all. Cigarette burn marks leave an indent. Almost like a little crater, with a raised edge. I'm having trouble finding the words I need at the moment...

 

[Bev]

most stun guns are loud - that's one reason why they're effective - the bark is worse than the bite, so to speak.

As to whether the Ramseys could hear anything on the third floor, is immaterial. The question is whether an intruder would know that. Someone unfamiliar with the home, would not know it, and someone familiar with the home might not know it either. One interesting contradiction to this nonsense that the Ramseys couldn't hear anything, is their own testimony that JR was getting dressed and heard Patsy scream - now they could either hear or they couldn't.

 

[Jayelles]

I think a doctor would recognize a cigarette burn mark. It is, unfortunately, a common sight in abuse cases.

But, I'll tell ya. I don't think they look like cigarette burn marks at all. Cigarette burn marks leave an indent. Almost like a little crater, with a raised edge. I'm having trouble finding the words I need at the moment...

I agree that most coroners would recognise a ciggy burn. Elsewhere on this forum, someone was arguing with me that it is the coroner's job to say what caused injuries. I said it was not the coroner's job to say what caused the injuries - only to examine the body and record the injuries. I believe that I am correct... however, I think if the coroner could SEE what caused the injuries, then he would be obliged to say so. i.e. he might describe small burns, give the dimensions of them and the locality and state that they were "consistent with" cigarette burns.

I know Quincy goes the extra mile to solve the case, but I don't think that most coroners are like Quincy

Maybe I'm wrong in this, but this is my understanding.

 

[BBB167893]

"(I suppose burn marks have specific characteristics)?"

Far as I know.

"As to whether the Ramseys could hear anything on the third floor, is immaterial. The question is whether an intruder would know that. Someone unfamiliar with the home, would not know it, and someone familiar with the home might not know it either. One interesting contradiction to this nonsense that the Ramseys couldn't hear anything, is their own testimony that JR was getting dressed and heard Patsy scream - now they could either hear or they couldn't."

That's part of what makes this so vexing.

 

[aussiesheila]

"Could the fact that they are all different in shape and intensity be because, as SuperDave suggests she tried to wriggle away each time they applied the gun to her?"

It's not a question of her trying to wriggle away. A stun gun works by making the muscles work overtime with great inefficiency. The person being zapped will be flopping like a hooked fish.

Hi SuperDave, I think this was my question you replied to. As I have already said it doesn't matter to my theory one way or the other whether a stun gun was used but I would like to know what caused the marks. So If you don't think the marks were made by a stun gun, do you have an explanation as to what did cause them, they are after all unusual, and they do need to be explained. Sorry if you have already done this, but I don't think I have read yet where you have. Thanks

 

[aussiesheila]

I agree that most coroners would recognise a ciggy burn. Elsewhere on this forum, someone was arguing with me that it is the coroner's job to say what caused injuries. I said it was not the coroner's job to say what caused the injuries - only to examine the body and record the injuries. I believe that I am correct... however, I think if the coroner could SEE what caused the injuries, then he would be obliged to say so. i.e. he might describe small burns, give the dimensions of them and the locality and state that they were "consistent with" cigarette burns.

I know Quincy goes the extra mile to solve the case, but I don't think that most coroners are like Quincy

Maybe I'm wrong in this, but this is my understanding.

I agree also, and the coroner didn't describe them as burns anyway, he described them as 'abrasions'.

 

[Eagle1]

...........
If I had to guess at what they looked more like to me, it would be cigarette burns.

Hey, I've always thought they looked like cigarette burns too, thought I was the only one. Now there's a whole bunch of us who think that.

Looks to me like one under her arm in the picture with the white ostrich (?) feathers costume. So it had happened before the night of her murder, and she looked like she was really enjoying wearing the costume.

 

[Eagle1]

....

One interesting contradiction to this nonsense that the Ramseys couldn't hear anything, is their own testimony that JR was getting dressed and heard Patsy scream - now they could either hear or they couldn't.".

Well, Patsy wasn't in the basement.

 

[BBB167893]

"Well, Patsy wasn't in the basement."

Right, right. But there were still two layers of floor between them.

"Looks to me like one under her arm in the picture with the white ostrich (?) feathers costume. So it had happened before the night of her murder, and she looked like she was really enjoying wearing the costume."

Eagle1, glad you noticed that. I think you will find that mark was a bruise, not an abrasion or burn, and it was quite a bit larger than the marks we're discussing.

She may have enjoyed it then, but if you look at some of her later pageant photos, she's almost like a zombie.

"As I have already said it doesn't matter to my theory one way or the other whether a stun gun was used but I would like to know what caused the marks. So If you don't think the marks were made by a stun gun, do you have an explanation as to what did cause them, they are after all unusual, and they do need to be explained. Sorry if you have already done this, but I don't think I have read yet where you have. Thanks"

Aussiesheila, you ask the $64 dollar question. I'll tell you what. Try here first:

http://www.geocities.com/wolfchick942003/photopage.html

 

[aussiesheila]

"As I have already said it doesn't matter to my theory one way or the other whether a stun gun was used but I would like to know what caused the marks. So If you don't think the marks were made by a stun gun, do you have an explanation as to what did cause them, they are after all unusual, and they do need to be explained. Sorry if you have already done this, but I don't think I have read yet where you have. Thanks"

Aussiesheila, you ask the $64 dollar question. I'll tell you what. Try here first:

http://www.geocities.com/wolfchick942003/photopage.html

Thanks for the link SuperDave. I had heard of the theory that the ring made the marks and sure, the shape fits, but how did the abrasions get the 'rust coloured' look? I can't see how you can get more than an indentation with the ring, unless you press it in and squelch it around and around. But then you would break the skin with the diamonds and draw blood and that was not evident at the autopsy.

 

[trixie]

I think it was Dr. Spitz(?) said there was a crescent shaped indentation in each of these marks.

 

[BBB167893]

I think it was Dr. Spitz(?) said there was a crescent shaped indentation in each of these marks.

He did. He said that if you looked at the marks closely, you could see a mark like the keel of a boat in the middle of them.

"I had heard of the theory that the ring made the marks and sure, the shape fits, but how did the abrasions get the 'rust coloured' look? I can't see how you can get more than an indentation with the ring, unless you press it in and squelch it around and around. But then you would break the skin with the diamonds and draw blood and that was not evident at the autopsy."

The "rust-colored" look to them could be a skin reaction, but that's just a guess.

 

[Eagle1]

I think it was Dr. Spitz(?) said there was a crescent shaped indentation in each of these marks.

Then maybe they should be able to identify the source. This is the first I heard of this. Should be an important clue.

What if someone was wearing an old civil war uniform or had a finger ring with a crescent on it that could be used as a seal?

Letters aren't sealed that way in wax any more, but if some kind of game-playing people were involved, might they still have an antique one? ( Not saying I really believe that, of course. Just that anything's possible. And the note sounds like a southerner. Not a ghost, I'm sure.)

Trixie, was he by any chance including the mark under JonBenet's arm, which I think the parents said in DOI was from a falling hamster cage? Did it look to you to be a different size than the other marks? Not to me. Looked like a cigarette burn to me. When she was wearing the white feathers costume.

 

[trixie]

IMO that bruise from the hamster cage was just a typical childhood bruise. I don't see anything sinister about it. About the crecsent shaped marks, Dr. Spitz was only referring to the marks commonly referred to as the "stun gun" marks. He doesn't believe they are stun gun marks and he was giving some reasons why. Those crescent shaped marks were one of his reasons.

 

[BBB167893]

"Trixie, was he by any chance including the mark under JonBenet's arm, which I think the parents said in DOI was from a falling hamster cage? Did it look to you to be a different size than the other marks? Not to me. Looked like a cigarette burn to me. When she was wearing the white feathers costume."

I remember that, Eagle1. But that mark was quite sizable, but it DID have a crescent-shaped mark in it! Hmm...

 

[Eagle1]

"Trixie, was he by any chance including the mark under JonBenet's arm, which I think the parents said in DOI was from a falling hamster cage? Did it look to you to be a different size than the other marks? Not to me. Looked like a cigarette burn to me. When she was wearing the white feathers costume."

I remember that, Eagle1. But that mark was quite sizable, but it DID have a crescent-shaped mark in it! Hmm...

You're kidding! Are you sure? The mark didn't look big to me at all, about the size of a cigarette burn, so of course I couldn't see any crescent or anything else. If I come across the pic again I'll use one of my lighted magnifying glasses.

I was reading a thread about the marks, maybe a different thread from this one, got to pg 7 and had to sign off last night. There it was being theorized that PR's fancy diamond cluster rings may have made the marks, and the design wasn't a crescent but more like a horror cartoon face. Someone said dried blood probably caused the rust color. Now I'm just trying to get caught up with today's notifications, don't know if I'll get back there to read the rest of the pages. I did google buttons with crescents, didn't open the Ebay results where you can buy all sorts of buttons, was wondering if JR's Navy uniform could have been used to scrape JonBenet, to look like his signature, or maybe an antique letter sealer stamp or cigarette lighter. I don't have one of those to examine unless in my car. Know anything about those? Each one is probably somewhat different.

Navy regulation uniforms have four HEAVY buttons, and I think two smaller ones on sleeves. Couldn't find any more detail about Navy uniform buttons.