The Pineapple

[tumble]

It's not clear to me she was caught in a lie. The only evidence I've seen that indicates JBR was awake when she got home is Burke saying so.

Some evidence is better than no evidence. We don't have any evidence she was asleep.

We have Burkes statement. And that is not just a 'mistake' on his part. He describes her walking up the stairs and is specific about it.

Is he lying? Why would Burke lie?

Also we the pineapple that we must explain. IMO, this further strengtens the point that PR,JR was lying about JB being asleep.

 

[Lurker Steve]

Some evidence is better than no evidence. We don't have any evidence she was asleep.

We have Burkes statement. And that is not just a 'mistake' on his part. He describes her walking up the stairs and is specific about it.

Is he lying? Why would Burke lie?

Also we the pineapple that we must explain. IMO, this further strengtens the point that PR,JR was lying about JB being asleep.

I agree that if PR, JR lied about JB being asleep, it's suspicious and indicative that they know much more than they are telling.

But could Burke still be mistaken? Again, if PR/JR are going to lie, they'd have to know that Burke saw her awake. Burke is a wildcard; it's easier to agree with what Burke remembers (if it is not incriminating.)

 

[MistyM]

the mystery pineapple. my goodness.

makes alot of sense that it doesn't make any sense. and yeah, why would she lie unless she was covering something up. certainly not embarrassed that she fed her kid a snack before bed. that's a really weird situation and makes me question my beliefs. i hope one day it can be answered.

 

[akgal]

I don't see this as particularly likely.
Jonbenet would NOT have sat down and had a snack with a total stranger.
I'm sure patsy, like most mothers, told Jonbenet NEVER to talk to strangers. What Mother doesn't?? This child was 6 years old....she would
have been terrified if a strange man approached her in the middle of the night. Seriously.

As to your other theory, *why* would Patsy lie about giving her the snack if she had nothing to hide??? 'nuff said.

Yes, but JonBenet was not a normal little girl in that she more then likely had alot of strangers around her quite often, at the pageants and doing publicity, photo shoots etc. So she might have been a little less worried about strangers then other 6 year olds.

Also, she was probably in alot of positions that made her a little uncomfortable, but being on stage with strangers watching her perform, she could have learned to ignore the little warning bells that usually go off in uncomfortable situations. JMO

 

[MistyM]

she seemed so much more mature than her years. at least the way she dressed and her 'professionalism'. i'm sure she was also trained to please adults too. perhaps even be flirty to make judges and whatnot like her better.

that might have made her more vulnerable to a stranger. especially if they were good with kids and knew how to gain trust. like say a teacher with a penchant for 'understanding' little girls.

 

[kazzbar]

:twocents:

she seemed so much more mature than her years. at least the way she dressed and her 'professionalism'. i'm sure she was also trained to please adults too. perhaps even be flirty to make judges and whatnot like her better.

that might have made her more vulnerable to a stranger. especially if they were good with kids and knew how to gain trust. like say a teacher with a penchant for 'understanding' little girls.

I still think she would have freaked initially but maybe she was talked round with kind words, sweet tea and pineapple.Then lured down to the basement with some sort of lure (i have some toys for you , darling...)etc.etc. But this is all rely's on the killer not worrying about any one getting up.Maybe he did not 'care' and just took the risk because he was so taken with the pretty lil' thing he just did not worry.She was with him this is all that matters. On getting her to the basement things started to get messy, he can't do what he wants to do with her because he has erection issues.So he violates he in another way ( paint brush handle). Things are starting to unravel, he is not enjoying himself very much.the garrote is getting to tight and she is moving to much. etc.He hits her with the flashlight. Not to sure about this bit (Sorry) This is where my theory ends.:twocents:

 

[akgal]

:twocents: I still think she would have freaked initially but maybe she was talked round with kind words, sweet tea and pineapple.Then lured down to the basement with some sort of lure (i have some toys for you , darling...)etc.etc. But this is all rely's on the killer not worrying about any one getting up.Maybe he did not 'care' and just took the risk because he was so taken with the pretty lil' thing he just did not worry.She was with him this is all that matters. On getting her to the basement things started to get messy, he can't do what he wants to do with her because he has erection issues.So he violates he in another way ( paint brush handle). Things are starting to unravel, he is not enjoying himself very much.the garrote is getting to tight and she is moving to much. etc.He hits her with the flashlight. Not to sure about this bit (Sorry) This is where my theory ends.:twocents:

Which could be why JMK says her death was an accident. He had the garrote too tight, she dies and he gets p.o.ed that she's dead and hits her over the head.

 

[tumble]

Which could be why JMK says her death was an accident. He had the garrote too tight, she dies and he gets p.o.ed that she's dead and hits her over the head.

Hmm, he is afraid that she is dead so he kills her some more. :waitasec:

 

[kazzbar]

Hmm, he is afraid that she is dead so he kills her some more. :waitasec:

No, she is not dead but he has the garrote tight and she is still breathing but he cant perform and he is scared because it is getting messy.So he hits her hard...she is silent.He slips out .End of story
O.k it may have holes but ....:twocents: :truce:

 

[Hyatt]

The significance of the pineapple, is that Patsy claims she did not give Jonbenet pineapple that night, yet it was found in her system, thus, at
some point, Jonbenet consumed it.

We can conclude one of the following:

1.Jonbenet was awake when they returned from the Whites, and ate some
pineapple with her family.
~If this is the case, then Patsy may have lied about the pineapple solely to
back up her story that Jonbenet went straight from the car to bed that night.

or

2. The intruder grabbed Jonbenet from her bed, got a little hungry, so he
made a quick pit stop in the kitchen for some fresh fruit before molesting
and killing Jonbenet.

Now, which one sounds more plausible??

The pineapple issue summarizes the Ramsey approach in a nutshell. The problem is not just that it points to a lie. The already-asleep-straight-to-bed story was the quickest way they could find to avoid ANY questions about the sort of exchanges that occurred that night. And this desire to oversimplify came back to undo them. Had they opted for even a partial truth regarding that - bothered to deal with the nuances of possible exchanges, they would not have been caught in that lie but again here, the desire was to divulge absolutely nothing. They were always looking for the shortest way to shut LE up and not to have to say anything whatsoever. And that was the general rule of thumb adopted by them.

JMO

 

[tumble]

No, she is not dead but he has the garrote tight and she is still breathing but he cant perform and he is scared because it is getting messy.So he hits her hard...she is silent.He slips out .End of story
O.k it may have holes but ....:twocents: :truce:

OK, I see. I don't want to nag on you( I see the flag...) it is just that...
... the headwound did not bleed. Often forceful strikes to the head bleed. The perp could not have known in advance that he would be so lucky so that the head bash would not cause bleeding.

If the strike would have cut the scalp there would have been more evidence, like bloodspatter. That would sure increase the mess.

 

[kazzbar]

No, she is not dead but he has the garrote tight and she is still breathing but he cant perform and he is scared because it is getting messy.So he hits her hard...she is silent.He slips out .End of story
O.k it may have holes but ....:twocents: :truce:

When I said messy ( it is an aussie expression we use when things are out of control). I did not mean blood messy.I meant messy for the intruder because things are going wrong.mainly with him. it is not as fullfilling as he hoped, he is getting stressed out about being caught. etc.

 

[tumble]

The pineapple issue summarizes the Ramsey approach in a nutshell. The problem is not just that it points to a lie. The already-asleep-straight-to-bed story was the quickest way they could find to avoid ANY questions about the sort of exchanges that occurred that night. And this desire to oversimplify came back to undo them. Had they opted for even a partial truth regarding that - bothered to deal with the nuances of possible exchanges, they would not have been caught in that lie but again here, the desire was to divulge absolutely nothing. They were always looking for the shortest way to shut LE up and not to have to say anything whatsoever. And that was the general rule of thumb adopted by them.

JMO

Good point Hyatt. Like Murphy says

'A shortcut is the longest distance between two points'

 

[akgal]

Hmm, he is afraid that she is dead so he kills her some more. :waitasec:

No, he's pissed off that he killed, her so in a rage, he hits her over the head. Ever heard the term overkill?

 

[tumble]

No, he's pissed off that he killed, her so in a rage, he hits her over the head. Ever heard the term overkill?

OK, I see your point. Though I can not see how one headbash could be called overkill. Overkill is what happened to Sheppards wife. The room was filled with bloodspatter.

I think the headbash could be explained by a rage, a rage coupled with a caring instict that restrained the perp from overkill. IMO, not something that occured after strangling the victim.

Or it could be a childish reckless hit with a flashlight for example. Children don't always know how much damage they can inflict with their actions.

I don't think the head bash was done in staging purposes. Under what circumstances would staging like this be appropriate? One headbash, no bleeding. An intruder would not need to stage anything, especially not staging to look like an intruder, he would just leave.

 

[Hyatt]

OK, I see your point. Though I can not see how one headbash could be called overkill. Overkill is what happened to Sheppards wife. The room was filled with bloodspatter.

I think the headbash could be explained by a rage, a rage coupled with a caring instict that restrained the perp from overkill. IMO, not something that occued after strangling the victim.

Or it could be a childish reckless hit with a flashlight for example. Children don't always know how much damage they can inflict with their actions.

I still think that the broken skull came first. If I remember correctly, Henry Lee once said on Larry King that it hadn't been proven that this death was not an accident. What I think happened here was that a child was shaken or hit violently and that as a result of that, her head hit some hard object with fatal force. Or maybe she was hit at the top of the stairs and fell onto some hard object.

JMO

JMO

 

[tumble]

I still think that the broken skull came first. If I remember correctly, Henry Lee once said on Larry King that it hadn't been proven that this death was not an accident. What I think happened here was that a child was shaken or hit violently and that as a result of that, her head hit some hard object with fatal force. Or maybe she was hit at the top of the stairs and fell onto some hard object.

JMO

JMO

I agree with you Hyatt. I also think the headbash occured first. I think the flashlight was used. Great care was taken to remove fingerprints from the flashlight, and batteries..., also the R's never acknowledged that the flashlight was theirs, they tried to pass it off as different. And as far as I know they never produced their own same model maglite flashlight which they acknowledged they owned.

 

[akgal]

I still think that the broken skull came first. If I remember correctly, Henry Lee once said on Larry King that it hadn't been proven that this death was not an accident. What I think happened here was that a child was shaken or hit violently and that as a result of that, her head hit some hard object with fatal force. Or maybe she was hit at the top of the stairs and fell onto some hard object.

JMO

JMO

I could be completely wrong here, but I thought there was little to no bleeding from the broken skull, so they thought she was already dead when she was hit??? I'm sorry if I have this wrong, but I think that is what I heard on one of the news programs. Also her cause of death was strangulation, so the head wound was not what killed her.

 

[kazzbar]

I could be completely wrong here, but I thought there was little to no bleeding from the broken skull, so they thought she was already dead when she was hit??? I'm sorry if I have this wrong, but I think that is what I heard on one of the news programs. Also her cause of death was strangulation, so the head wound was not what killed her.

I think it depends which expert is consulted. From memory no body is 100% sure which came first.

 

[tumble]

I could be completely wrong here, but I thought there was little to no bleeding from the broken skull, so they thought she was already dead when she was hit??? I'm sorry if I have this wrong, but I think that is what I heard on one of the news programs. Also her cause of death was strangulation, so the head wound was not what killed her.

The bleeding was internal in the skull. No external bleeding, no scalp injury.
The cause of death was asphyxia in association with trama to the skull. Both causes were lethal. JB could have survived the headbash for a while and then actually died by asphyxia as a result of the staging attempt.