The Pineapple

[Hyatt]

I could be completely wrong here, but I thought there was little to no bleeding from the broken skull, so they thought she was already dead when she was hit??? I'm sorry if I have this wrong, but I think that is what I heard on one of the news programs. Also her cause of death was strangulation, so the head wound was not what killed her.

Well, I think that the tragedy that happened here was: there was either an accidental or rage-motivated blow to the skull and then she was believed to be dead so that when the strangulation staging occurred, THAT may have been what really killed her even though she had been presumed dead after the blow. That's how I reconcile the blow coming first and death by strangulation. BUT, what I see as important is that the presumption of death going by unchecked by medical experts occurred because the perp panicked and did not even want to be associated with a fit of rage unleashed on a child. Sadly, it may have been their presumption of death which caused the latter.

JMO

 

[Hyatt]

The bleeding was internal in the skull. No external bleeding, no scalp injury.
The cause of death was asphyxia in association with trama to the skull. Both causes were lethal. JB could have survived the headbash for a while and then actually died by asphyxia as a result of the staging attempt.

Yep. We were writing the same thing at the same time, lol.

 

[UKGuy]

I still think that the broken skull came first. If I remember correctly, Henry Lee once said on Larry King that it hadn't been proven that this death was not an accident. What I think happened here was that a child was shaken or hit violently and that as a result of that, her head hit some hard object with fatal force. Or maybe she was hit at the top of the stairs and fell onto some hard object. JMO JMO

Hyatt,

Regardless of which sequence you select, either JonBenet was whacked on the head then strangled, or she was strangled then whacked on the head?

The intent displayed demonstrates that JonBenet's death was no accident, her killer wanted JonBenet dead.

How many children in the USofA have domestic accidents, do their parents then think mmm, this could look bad, lets just kill the child, in fact kill the child again?

On the previous occasion JonBenet had a serious domestic accident, involving Burke and a golf club, she was rushed to hospital.


.

 

[Hyatt]

I think that death was accidental here. But consciously or subconsciously (because much was quickly done in panic here without much forethought) I think the individual in question knew/felt they would be up for a charge of manslaughter or murder 2. What WOULD be the charge levelled at such a scenario with no intent to kill?

JMO

 

[tumble]

The intent displayed demonstrates that JonBenet's death was no accident, her killer wanted JonBenet dead.

Accidental as in the meaning no intention to kill. The headbash may be accidental in that sense as has been said MANY times.

On the previous occasion JonBenet had a serious domestic accident, involving Burke and a golf club, she was rushed to hospita

Was she unconsious at that time. Showing no signs of life?
If it was PR that hit her with the flashlight this would be harder to explain.

 

[Hyatt]

Hyatt,

Regardless of which sequence you select, either JonBenet was whacked on the head then strangled, or she was strangled then whacked on the head?

The intent displayed demonstrates that JonBenet's death was no accident, her killer wanted JonBenet dead.

How many children in the USofA have domestic accidents, do their parents then think mmm, this could look bad, lets just kill the child, in fact kill the child again?

On the previous occasion JonBenet had a serious domestic accident, involving Burke and a golf club, she was rushed to hospital.


.

Well, I do think that the death was an accident. I don't think that anyone thought to "kill the child again". I think that they assumed that they had already killed her and proceeded to do further damage to the body to hide the true circumstances of the death, in the hopes of pinning it on someone else, not knowing that it was the staging that killed her. That's my theory.

JMO

 

[akgal]

The bleeding was internal in the skull. No external bleeding, no scalp injury.
The cause of death was asphyxia in association with trama to the skull. Both causes were lethal. JB could have survived the headbash for a while and then actually died by asphyxia as a result of the staging attempt.

Well, those pesky news people!! I swear they said no bleeding from the head trauma, so I took that to mean no internal bleeding either. That's what I get for not following the case until now.

 

[Hyatt]

Well, I would agree that if you kill a child (or anyone) during a fit of rage, can one really say "accidental". But I mean it as tumble says: I don't think that there was a conscious desire to kill. Someone just lost it completely and fatally unleashed rage upon a child.

But I can't help but wonder just how big that house was and why no one else in the house would not have heard at least some of what was going on.

JMO

 

[tumble]

Well, those pesky news people!! I swear they said no bleeding from the head trauma, so I took that to mean no internal bleeding either. That's what I get for not following the case until now.

To be fair there was not MUCH bleeding, some teaspoons. Some have said that there was too little bleeding. Although the brain had begun to swell indicating that the hasdbash came first.

 

[kazzbar]

Well, I would agree that if you kill a child (or anyone) during a fit of rage, can one really say "accidental". But I mean it as tumble says: I don't think that there was a conscious desire to kill. Someone just lost it completely and fatally unleashed rage upon a child.

But I can't help but wonder just how big that house was and why no one else in the house would not have heard at least some of what was going on.

JMO

The house is very large.Basement, ground floor, 1st floor, 2nd floor.JBR and Burke slept on the 1st floor and Patsy and John had the top floor. In photos the house looks ike it had lots of small, pokey nooks and crannies.If you look on the CANDYROSE website there are photos. despite of all this ,I to find it hard to believe that nobody inside heard anything. One of the neightbours said she heard a scream and the sound of scratching concrete.

 

[Hyatt]

The house is very large.Basement, ground floor, 1st floor, 2nd floor.JBR and Burke slept on the 1st floor and Patsy and John had the top floor. In photos the house looks ike it had lots of small, pokey nooks and crannies.If you look on the CANDYROSE website there are photos. despite of all this ,I to find it hard to believe that nobody inside heard anything. One of the neightbours said she heard a scream and the sound of scratching concrete.

Had never heard of the "scratching concrete" issue. Wonder what THAT could have been. Wonder if it was simultaneous.

 

[UKGuy]

Well, I do think that the death was an accident. I don't think that anyone thought to "kill the child again". I think that they assumed that they had already killed her and proceeded to do further damage to the body to hide the true circumstances of the death, in the hopes of pinning it on someone else, not knowing that it was the staging that killed her. That's my theory.

JMO

Hyatt,

JonBenet was both whacked on the head, and strangled, or the reverse, the autopsy states both contributed towards her death.

The rest may be staging or anything else, but the preceding facts demonstrate that someone wanted JonBenet dead, her killer was not satisfied with one method and attempt, but used two separate methods!

This excludes her sexual assault and any other ritual assault that has not been made public, and you want to think it was all accidental?


.

 

[tumble]

UKGuy:
The rest may be staging or anything else, but the preceding facts demonstrate that someone wanted JonBenet dead, her killer was not satisfied with one method and attempt, but used two separate methods!

If the headbash was accidental and the garrote staging there is no intent to kill. There was intent to decieve.

This excludes her sexual assault

I agree the sexual assaul is strange. It also seems some of the findings indicate older injuries. Some have said this was punitive punishment.

other ritual assault that has not been made public

If you have more information than us so be it. Please share if you may.

 

[Hyatt]

Hyatt,

JonBenet was both whacked on the head, and strangled, or the reverse, the autopsy states both contributed towards her death.

The rest may be staging or anything else, but the preceding facts demonstrate that someone wanted JonBenet dead, her killer was not satisfied with one method and attempt, but used two separate methods!

This excludes her sexual assault and any other ritual assault that has not been made public, and you want to think it was all accidental?


.

I explained in #106 of this thread how both could have contributed to the death as stated by the autopsy report. I have seen no evidence or motive to suggest that someone wanted the child dead. Regarding your last paragraph - I believe that only the blow was "accidental" but don't forget that I do question whether one can call any violence out of rage on anyone causing death as "accidental". I don't believe that anyone consciously wanted her dead although the degree of rage unleashed here could point to some serious subconcious issues. I don't think that Patsy Ramsey was a very stable person. I think that there were serious issues there. But I no doubt think something similar about any mother obsessed with sexualizing her 6 yr old and having HER win beauty contests. But then we get into psychoanalysis here.

JMO

JMO

 

[kazzbar]

Had never heard of the "scratching concrete" issue. Wonder what THAT could have been. Wonder if it was simultaneous.

I posted a question about this on the question and answer link but have had no answer as yet.anybody recall this ?

 

[tumble]

I posted a question about this on the question and answer link but have had no answer as yet.anybody recall this ?

Yes I recall it. It was the husband of the woman who heard the scream that reports this noice. He was awakened by his wife after she heard the scream. Appearantly she didn't hear any 'concrete noise'.

LS thought this nise came from the grate being moved as the intruder left through the basemant window.

 

[kazzbar]

Yes I recall it. It was the husband of the woman who heard the scream that reports this noice. He was awakened by his wife after she heard the scream. Appearantly she didn't hear any 'concrete noise'.

LS thought this nise came from the grate being moved as the intruder left through the basemant window.

Oh, thanks Tumble. This has been nagging me all day. Funny that neighbours heard 'things' but the Ramsay's did not.Do you think they had been drinking heavily and this dulled there senses? I recall seeing the window ( you kid of dropped down into it) It had a steel grate down. Anyone could have crouched down that pit thingy without being seen by anyone.

 

[tumble]

Oh, thanks Tumble. This has been nagging me all day. Funny that neighbours heard 'things' but the Ramsay's did not.Do you think they had been drinking heavily and this dulled there senses? I recall seeing the window ( you kid of dropped down into it) It had a steel grate down. Anyone could have crouched down that pit thingy without being seen by anyone.

I think if JB did scream the parents heard it.
I say IF cause Melodie Stanton(the neighbour who heard the scream) at one point states that it might not have been an audible scream but a burst of energy of some sort .

And Luther Stanton never recanted on his scraping metal noise.

 

[tri2005]

the shoe print is significant because it was right next to where jbr body was found and the rest of the floor had erosion and mold on it. the foot print was fresh....the room was not used

the palm print on the door into the room jbr was found was proven to be melinda ramseys.

too many lies in the ramsey camp...and why wouldn't they allow jbr to be exhumed to prove or disprove the stun gun theory.

tri

 

[pinto]

...
And Luther Stanton never recanted on his scraping metal noise.

What are the theories behind what this could have been? I've heard grate to window well, and something unpersuasive about paint cans ...

Too bad it wasn't the night before, or we would have known it was Santa's sleigh runners ....