Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #2

[10ofRods]

Although they are sending and receiving texts they're not using the same sort of communication devices that would be used on land or at the surface. Instead, they use acoustic transmitters that are specifically designed for undersea communications.


This may be of interest...from a very technical article on how communication was done during the record-breaking descent to the Mariana Trench by James Cameron in 2012:

Communications to the Deepest Point on Earth

In March 2012, filmmaker and explorer James Cameron successfully completed his one-man dive to the bottom of the Mariana Trench. The dive was the cent...

www.hydro-international.com

The baud rate for digital underwater communication is not comparable to Ethernet-based LAN or WLAN networking. The underlying mechanism is similar to old-fashioned acoustic couplers where digital data is converted to acoustic signals. Travelling through water, sound waves are compromised by the aforementioned factors, calling for data recovery and forward error correction information to be included in the data stream. This guarding information is used by the receiver for data reconstruction. Besides the slow signal propagation speed in water, the amount of forward error correction information included reduces effective baud rates to less than 4,000bps. A typical trade-off between data reliability and transmission time results in a baud rate of approximately 1,000bps. Most data transfers include readable ASCII-based messages and can be interpreted even when they include corrupted characters. In any case, low transmission speed practically restricts underwater file transfers to files of a couple of kilobytes, which despite their small size are still suitable for underwater tasks.

I believe the Titan would use a similar system although it's not entirely clear if they could do more than just send pings from the sub.

Scientific American says they could only send pings (and receive brief coordinate texts via transponder). Pings ceased at 1:45 into the journey. The 2:00 hour ping never came.

Thank you so much for delving into this more - it's very interesting. It's definitely the acoustic transmission system, with no ability for the Titan to send content-messages back to the mothership (just pings, is the way it reads in SciAm).

IMO.

 

[iamshadow21]

The 'banging' seems so uncertain because no one on the team seems to have officially specified if it had an actual pattern or whether it was a bit random

Because there are currents, and because the wreck isn't just a nice neat ship sat upright on the bottom, it's a twisted, mangled thing split into two major parts and thousands upon thousands of smaller ones scattered across a vast debris field, I'm cautious to write the sounds down as intentional by humans, especially as those in charge of the rescue seem uncertain. What sounds intentional could be pieces of the original wreck banging against each other in the current. A phantom signal of distress over a hundred years too late.

MOO

 

[Amonet]

I can easily imagine the father willing to sacrifice his life so his son might live.

However, IMO the logistics make this scenario fairly impossible.

How would one sacrifice one’s life there? It’s impossible to just stop oneself from trying to draw breath. Is there some plastic bag there to place over one’s head? And if the father were willing to do something of the kind to save his son, then what? Those few extra breaths of oxygen would be shared by everyone in the crew, not just his son.

Or if there were the horrific scenario of enough oxygen but not enough food, how would they even cannibilize someone else to provide food for the others?


I cannot envision any such scenario in that limited space, with only the equipment aboard meant to provide thrill-seekers with a close-up of Titanic.

My hope lies only in the regularity of the banging at intervals. If not at specific intervals I would not think the noise is man- made.

I’ll reiterate my thought from an earlier post of mine, that whether they survive or not, the fortunes of these families might in the future be used for the benefit of those in need. And perhaps to provide more equipment for the entities that are doing all they can to locate and potentially rescue them.


JMO

Food is irrelevant here. Oxygen and water are the main concerns I can think of. Someone can only go about 3 days without water. It's supposed to be about 3 weeks for food. I doubt they took enough water for four days, so that means eking out what they did take. Next stop would be the ziplock bags, if you catch my drift.

There was a quote in the last thread that said the CO2 scrubbers could extend the available oxygen beyond 96 hours. As far as I know that would make water the key to surviving long enough for rescue.

 

[cujenn81]

Yeah but didn’t I read that once they got to the surface they had more ways to signal? Anyone else remember reading that? That’s one reason I’ve been pretty sure they did not surface.

I saw someone on another website ask why they wouldn't deploy the same sort of technology used to tag and track the location of great white sharks. I know from reading about these tags that they only ping when the shark fin breaks the surface of the water. In other words, the tag can only ping nearby satellites when exposed to air. Perhaps the submersible has something similar attached to it? A shark tag (also called SPOT tags) is equipped with a battery that lasts > 5 years. IF the submersible is equipped with similar technology, a power failure wouldn't interfere with its ability to send out a ping to a nearby satellite if it surfaced. I hope it's equipped with at least that much anyway.

 

[JennieM]

Titanic submersible: documents reveal multiple concerns raised over safety of vessel​

Exclusive: OceanGate founder told Guardian his sub was designed to get ‘very close’ to wreck, after industry leaders urged firm to have it assessed

[...]

While it is too early to say what happened to the vessel, experts have raised questions over whether all appropriate safety measures were followed.

[...]

On Tuesday, the New York Times published a letter written in 2018 by industry leaders in the submersible vessel field, warning Rush of possible “catastrophic” problems with Titan’s development.

The Marine Technology Society, an industry group made up of ocean engineers, technologists, policymakers and educators, expressed “concern regarding the development of Titan and the planned Titanic expeditions” and warned against the “current experimental approach adopted by OceanGate”.

At issue was whether the Titan vessel would be independently assessed by industry regulators or risk assessors.

The Marine Technology Society was critical of OceanGate issuing marketing material that stated the Titan design would “meet or exceed the DNV-GL safety standards” while apparently not intending to have the vessel assessed by that same organisation.

The DNV is an independent organisation, described as the world’s leading classification society for the maritime industry, which certifies vessels such as submersibles and issues regulations for such products.

In the case of vessels such as Titan, the DNV classification process examines whether “internationally recognised rules” were followed and includes inspections during the constructions and operations phase.

In its letter, the Marine Technology Society wrote: “We recommend that at a minimum, you institute a prototype testing program that is reviewed and witnessed by DNV-GL.”

A spokesperson for OceanGate declined to comment on the 2018 letter when approached by the New York Times.

[...]


OceanGate was also concerned that the classing process could slow down development and act as a drag on innovation. “Bringing an outside entity up to speed on every innovation before it is put into real-world testing is anathema to rapid innovation,” it said.

In an interview with the Smithsonian magazine in 2019, Rush complained that the commercial sub industry had not “innovated or grown – because they have all these regulations”.

It is not clear whether the Titan has received industry certification since the blogpost was published, but in 2022 a CBS News reporter who was due to travel on the vessel reported that the waiver he signed read: “This experimental vessel has not been approved or certified by any regulatory body.”

In defending its decision not to have the Titan classed, the company highlighted what it said were safety innovations onboard, including “carbon fiber pressure vessels and a real-time (RTM) hull health monitoring system”.

The ability of the sub’s hull design to withstand such depths was questioned in a 2018 lawsuit filed by OceanGate’s former director of marine operations David Lochridge, who said he was fired after he raised safety concerns about the vessel.

OceanGate said in its breach of contract suit against Lochridge, who is not an engineer, that he refused to accept the lead engineer’s assurances and accused him of improperly sharing confidential information. The two sides settled their court case in November 2018.

The company did not respond to requests for comment from the Reuters news agency, and its attorney in the Lochridge case, Thomas Gilman, declined comment.

OceanGate said it was “mobilising all options” in the search, and the US Coast Guard Rear Adm John Mauger told NBC News the company was helping to guide the search efforts.

“They know that site better than anybody else,” Mauger said. “We’re working very closely with them to prioritise our underwater search efforts and get equipment there.”

Reuters contributed to this report

Titanic submersible: documents reveal multiple concerns raised over safety of vessel

A 2018 letter from industry leaders urged OceanGate to have its Titan sub classed by an independent agency

www.theguardian.com

 

[branmuffin]

The 'banging' seems so uncertain because no one on the team seems to have officially specified if it had an actual pattern or whether it was a bit random

I wonder whether the banging is related to underwater currents and it's the sound of an entangled submersible banging against the remains of the Titanic.

 

[BUF]

German who paid OceanGate to see Titanic calls it a 'suicide mission'

Arthur Loibl, 60, dove the 12,500 feet to the Atlantic ocean wreck site in August 2021, and says he was 'incredibly lucky' to survive, saying the Titanic expedition was his most 'extreme' adventure.

www.dailymail.co.uk

In Timeline, Sub sent a distress signal. This is the first time I've seen this, must have missed it earlier.

Dr Boxall said a distress signal from the submarine has been sent out.

He told PA: “This is second-hand knowledge but my understanding is that they have received a signal from the submarine.

“You can’t use radios underwater.

“You rely totally on ‘pings’. What they have is really limited communication.

“Apparently they have had, and I don’t know when, they have had an emergency ping saying the vessel is in distress.

“I don’t know if that is automatically generated or generated by people on board.

“It could be that the vessel is lost already or it could be automatic.”

He said he did not know when the message was transmitted.

What we know about the missing Titan submersible and those on board

Here is what we know so far about the missing 22ft long vessel and those on board, including the British billionaire adventurer Hamish Harding.

www.independent.co.uk

 

[cujenn81]

Food is irrelevant here. Oxygen and water are the main concerns I can think of. Someone can only go about 3 days without water. It's supposed to be about 3 weeks for food. I doubt they took enough water for four days, so that means eking out what they did take. Next stop would be the ziplock bags, if you catch my drift.

There was a quote in the last thread that said the CO2 scrubbers could extend the available oxygen beyond 96 hours. As far as I know that would make water the key to surviving long enough for rescue.

You're right, it's the rule of threes. Generally speaking -- as there is always a variable that proves to be the exception -- humans can survive 3 weeks without food, 3 days without water, and 3 minutes without air.

 

[10ofRods]

I saw someone on another website ask why they wouldn't deploy the same sort of technology used to tag and track the location of great white sharks. I know from reading about these tags that they only ping when the shark fin breaks the surface of the water. In other words, the tag can only ping nearby satellites when exposed to air. Perhaps the submersible has something similar attached to it? A shark tag (also called SPOT tags) is equipped with a battery that lasts > 5 years. IF the submersible is equipped with similar technology, a power failure wouldn't interfere with its ability to send out a ping to a nearby satellite if it surfaced. I hope it's equipped with at least that much anyway.

I was wondering about the same thing. There is a kind of mast (with red tip) on the top of the Titan. I mean, surely they would have put such a transmitting/tracking device on top?

It would need to be up on that mast, though, because the Titan is not designed to fully surface. The mast looks to be about 2 feet tall.

Maybe 3 feet?

IMO.

 

[Puzzles8]

I was wondering about the same thing. There is a kind of mast (with red tip) on the top of the Titan. I mean, surely they would have put such a transmitting/tracking device on top?

It would need to be up on that mast, though, because the Titan is not designed to fully surface. The mast looks to be about 2 feet tall.

View attachment 430353

Maybe 3 feet?

IMO.

Maybe a periscope?

JMO

 

[cenazoic]

….wouldn't an actual cell phone work again? without electricity, it could not have been recharged

It could be recharged via a battery pack, if someone brought one, but carbon fiber is a really effective blocker of cell/RF signals. The Titan’s hull is made of 5ft-thick carbon fiber (and titanium).

 

[Curiousobserver]

Its the O2 and CO2 that is going to kill them if they are actually still alive and didn't implode on the way down. Although they will eventually dehydrate, their exhaled breath is condensing on the inside surfaces and should be easy to collect or just lick off the walls. These are cleaver guys and they will collect the available water.

 

[arielilane]

There are 17 crew members on board the Polar Prince according to Sean Leet, Co-Founder of Horizon Maritime Services (owns Polar Prince).

https://twitter.com/x/status/1671597720887349256

CANADA PRESSER. Sean Leet, Co-founder and Chairman of Horizon Maritime Services, discusses the efficiency at which resources are sent out to the search scene. Horizon also owns the Polar Prince in a joint venture.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1671596614857678858

https://twitter.com/WFLAJosh

 

[Puzzles8]

Link to today's CNN Live Update stream

June 21, 2023 - Missing Titanic sub search news

A massive search operation is underway in an area twice the size of Connecticut for the submersible that went missing Sunday — as officials fear there's less than a day's worth of oxygen left on board the craft.

www.cnn.com

Link to today's BBC Live Update Stream

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464

JMO

 

[10ofRods]

Dr Boxall said a distress signal from the submarine has been sent out.

He told PA: “This is second-hand knowledge but my understanding is that they have received a signal from the submarine.

“You can’t use radios underwater.

“You rely totally on ‘pings’. What they have is really limited communication.

“Apparently they have had, and I don’t know when, they have had an emergency ping saying the vessel is in distress.

“I don’t know if that is automatically generated or generated by people on board.

“It could be that the vessel is lost already or it could be automatic.”

He said he did not know when the message was transmitted.

What we know about the missing Titan submersible and those on board

Here is what we know so far about the missing 22ft long vessel and those on board, including the British billionaire adventurer Hamish Harding.

www.independent.co.uk

Great articles - and great catch on that graphic timeline mention of distress signal.

It says that the last distress signal was sent 15 minutes after the last ping (so a distress ping?) It was 2 hours after they began their descent.

They were reported missing 7 hours after that distress signal. What I want to know is how a "distress signal" ping is distinguished from the ping just 15 minutes before. If true, is the distress signal something automatic when systems go down? Looks like no one knows.

I do wish reporters would ask more at the briefings.

While Boxall says he doesn't know when the distress ping was sent, the timeline says "last distress ping" sent at 3 pm, two hours into the voyage. That implies there was another distress ping, but since it's the DM, it could just be "last ping" is being considered "distress ping."

IMO.

 

[bestill]

German who paid OceanGate to see Titanic calls it a 'suicide mission'

Arthur Loibl, 60, dove the 12,500 feet to the Atlantic ocean wreck site in August 2021, and says he was 'incredibly lucky' to survive, saying the Titanic expedition was his most 'extreme' adventure.

www.dailymail.co.uk

In Timeline, Sub sent a distress signal. This is the first time I've seen this, must have missed it earlier.

Last signal reported on the timeline as distress signal Sunday 2:45 pm and then 10:40pm alert raised with coastguard - 8 precious hours missed and I suspect it was at first damage control for the mission and company. The more we read and learn about this the more horrifying it is. JMO

 

[Deepinthought52]

The crowd is obviously very interested in the noises heard.

Any new and different news will bring more hope. until the oxygen timeline has ended they will entertain all ideas.

 

[Simply Southern]

Years ago, I had the opportunity to experience Gene Kranz, Chief Flight Director of the Apollo 13 mission. He told the "story" of extraordinary effort, against extreme circumstances of our fellow humans to save the life of the crew. He lead the team with FINAO (failure is not an option) and I to believe all things are possible.

I do believe if they can find the vessel, it will be recovered. Great minds, people, the best of the best world wide are working together with every tool available to bring this crew home.

And I do believe they know more than they are sharing.

Moo....

 

[MsMarple]

The Titan was originally scheduled to take people down for the first time in 2018, but the vessel was damaged by lightning during testing and had to be repaired, tech news website GeekWire reported.

Then, in 2020, the Titan had to be “rebuilt” after its hull showed signs of “cyclic fatigue” during testing, GeekWire reported.

Finally, in 2021, OceanGate completed a successful mission to the Titanic in Titan, The New York Times reported. But issues with the dives didn’t stop there.

In the CBS special, the first dive that’s supposed to include Pogue is canceled due to high waves. Then, the team tries to take him to see the continental shelf 80 miles from the wreck, but the floats on the platform that take the Titan down come off early, and they have to cancel the dive again. It’s not until the third try that Pogue finally gets to see the Titanic.

The Associated Press also reported that in 2022, the Titan had battery issues and later sustained so much external damage that OceanGate had to cancel its second mission to the Titanic. Even so, the company was able to complete successful missions to the Titanic in the Titan after the canceled mission.

5 things to know about OceanGate Expeditions, the company behind the lost Titanic sub

The Titan submersible is a one-of-a-kind vessel with some non-traditional parts. Here are 5 things to know about OceanGate Expeditions.

www.boston.com

A former employee of OceanGate alleged in a 2018 counterclaim lawsuit that he was fired for raising concerns about quality control and testing of potential flaws in the same experimental submersible that went missingthis week with its crew and passengers on an underwater tourist venture to see the wreck of the Titanic.
…
But Lochridge, according to the suit, raised concerns about the design of the submersible's hull, particularly that it was made of carbon fiber instead of a metallic composition.

Lochridge, according to the suit, objected to OceanGate's and its CEO's "deviation from an original plan to conduct non-destructive testing and unmanned pressure testing" on the Titan.

"Lockridge disagreed with OceanGate's position to dive the submersible without any non-destructive testing to prove its integrity and to subject passengers to extreme danger in an experimental submersible," the suit said.
…
"At the meeting, Lochridge discovered why he had been denied access to the viewport information from the Engineering department -- the viewport at the forward of the submersible was only built to a certified pressure of 1,300 meters, although OceanGate intended to take passengers down to depths of 4,000 meters," the lawsuit said. "The paying passengers would not be aware, and would not be informed, of this experimental design, the lack of non-destructive testing of the hull, or that hazardous flammable materials were being used within the submersible."

'Extreme danger': Ex OceanGate employee alleges firing for raising concerns over missing Titanic sub

A former OceanGate employee contends he was fired for raising concerns.

abc7ny.com

More at the link.

 

[Deepinthought52]

I don't understand how they don't know how many food rations they have aboard.

This information should be readily available. It sounds like the Titan organisers don't know themselves? That's quite concerning in terms of Titan's overall organization if that's the case MOO.

Lack of food, lack of sanitation and frigid conditions are also concerning in addition to lack of oxygen if this vehicle is still intact