Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #3

[HMSHood]

Marine turned down a trip on Titan after seeing inside the vessel

OceanGate, the company that built the vessel, offered Robert Mester a voyage onboard the Titan's predecessor Antipodes and later on Titan itself, but he says he turned it down after seeing inside.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Underwater survival expert reveals OceanGate's biggest 'red flags'

Rachel Lance, a Duke University biomedical engineer, said that the carbon fibre hull which OceanGate's sub used was known to be unsuitable.

www.dailymail.co.uk

A lot of red flags about Ocean Gate and Titan submersible. The Titan submersible should never have been underwater to begin with.

 

[justtrish]

"There can be many different truths from one source"

OK faux new age mysticism aside, I think the key to your question is "those passengers" and "what the activity was".

Those passengers were not twenty something year olds taking an impulsive ride on a zip line during a summer break from their day jobs. They then assume that the ride was inspected by the State and over all safe but thrilling.

Rather, with one exception, "those people" were all very astute individuals (former naval officer / diver, very wealthy self made businessmen, a designer with an engineering degree from Princeton).

Those people knew that the proposed activity 4,000 meters below the water was not a trip on zipline. They also knew full well that the submarine was not certified and was largely home built (the designer and CEO, what ever his faults, made the nature of the submersible very clear).

In short, it was clearly a risky adventure- similar to extreme cave diving and conducted by fully informed people.

In a post earlier an article was shared where he actually went to a potential customer that was hesitant to go on this trip and ultimately that customer decided against it. It seems to me (and I could be wrong) this man was attempting to fill the trip and even offered a discounted price. IF someone is hesitant for any reason, why was he pushing it? I'd say flying out to meet with a potential customer to persuade them is being rather pushy. So I'd ask again how forthcoming was he with the risks? The customer with a son that backed out posted on FB and shared the text exchanges he had with Stockton and he said, "while there are risks, it's safer than riding in a helicopter or scuba diving" So when someone is expressing fear of it being dangerous that is his response? I think it's possible he was not forthcoming in what he shared about risks. It might be listed in a waiver, but if he's saying it's safer than riding in a helicopter or scuba diving then what factual data does he have to say that? Seems he's trying to sway people. I'm sure that father/son are thanking their lucky stars they declined.

 

[crhedBngr]

OT

Just wanted to say, I didn’t like the movie either.

Perhaps these people had signed NDAs, so could not speak up?

RBBM

Make that three of us . . .

JMVHO.

 

[MsMarple]

RBBM

Make that three of us . . .

JMVHO.

For me the groundbreaking CGI made it worthwhile to watch. Even the frosty breath coming from Rose at the end passed for real. Pretty amazing.

But I can’t agree with Cameron that the hull sensor gave the crew enough time to drop the ascent weights and scramble to ascend. I’m more inclined to believe the fired employee’s assessment:

But legal filings reveal Lochridge, the former director of marine operations, 'expressed concern that this was problematic because this type of acoustic analysis would only show when a component is about to fail—often milliseconds before an implosion—and would not detect any existing flaws prior to putting pressure onto the hull.'

Underwater survival expert reveals OceanGate's biggest 'red flags'

Rachel Lance, a Duke University biomedical engineer, said that the carbon fibre hull which OceanGate's sub used was known to be unsuitable.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

In a post earlier an article was shared where he actually went to a potential customer that was hesitant to go on this trip and ultimately that customer decided against it. It seems to me (and I could be wrong) this man was attempting to fill the trip and even offered a discounted price. IF someone is hesitant for any reason, why was he pushing it? I'd say flying out to meet with a potential customer to persuade them is being rather pushy. So I'd ask again how forthcoming was he with the risks? The customer with a son that backed out posted on FB and shared the text exchanges he had with Stockton and he said, "while there are risks, it's safer than riding in a helicopter or scuba diving" So when someone is expressing fear of it being dangerous that is his response? I think it's possible he was not forthcoming in what he shared about risks. It might be listed in a waiver, but if he's saying it's safer than riding in a helicopter or scuba diving then what factual data does he have to say that? Seems he's trying to sway people. I'm sure that father/son are thanking their lucky stars they declined.

Prior to last weekend, nobody had died or even been seriously injured traveling down to see Titanic. By contrast, many have been seriously injured or killed in helicopters or when scuba diving. Strictly speaking, SR wasn't lying.

The problem is that he believed the safety of his own "innovative" submersible was comparable to the safety of earlier subs that had followed tried and tested guidelines. It's like comparing a Saturn V to fireworks strapped on a barrel.

 

[crhedBngr]

For me the groundbreaking CGI made it worthwhile to watch. Even the frosty breath coming from Rose at the end passed for real. Pretty amazing.

But I can’t agree with Cameron that the hull sensor gave the crew enough time to drop the ascent weights and scramble to ascend. I’m more inclined to believe the fired employee’s assessment:

But legal filings reveal Lochridge, the former director of marine operations, 'expressed concern that this was problematic because this type of acoustic analysis would only show when a component is about to fail—often milliseconds before an implosion—and would not detect any existing flaws prior to putting pressure onto the hull.'

Underwater survival expert reveals OceanGate's biggest 'red flags'

Rachel Lance, a Duke University biomedical engineer, said that the carbon fibre hull which OceanGate's sub used was known to be unsuitable.

www.dailymail.co.uk

RBBM

I will wait for assessments made by structural and mechanical engineers, as well as other subject-matter experts.

JMVHO.

 

[Sundog]

Is Rush survived only by his wife? No kids?

<snipped by me>

If this information is correct, then Rush and his wife have two children, a son and daughter.

A rich family history as well (info from this article and from Heavy.com that I posted earlier today). Stockton Rush is a descendant of Benjamin Rush and Richard Stockton, founding fathers who signed the Declaration of Independence. Stockton Rush is named after them. And his son's name is Richard Benjamin Rush, it looks like, according to this article. Stockton Rush's father went to Princeton (after graduating worked as a university faculty member and director of transplant surgery). Stockton Rush also went to Princeton, as did his son Richard Benjamin Rush. Not sure if his daughter, Quincy, also went to Princeton, I don't remember. She is a law clerk and has her JD degree. Wendy Rush, spouse of Stockton Rush, was a pilot and also worked for a publisher, IIRC. Also went to ivy league private school before college and for college. Same with Stockton Rush regarding private prep school before college. All the info is at link below and in the Heavy.com links I posted earlier today (Saturday).

Stockton Rush's children: All about Richard and Quincy Rush - TheNetline

Stockton Rush and the four passengers of the submersible he piloted to the Titanic wreckage died after the vessel imploded. The OceanGate Expeditions founder had stated that the submersible was safe, despite its rule-defying construction. “At some point, you’re going to take some risk, and it...

thenetline.com

 

[ArianeEmory]

JMO:

I do think Cameron is an egotistical a** and I don’t think that’s a big secret. That said, I do think he has a lot more experience with Titanic dives than most of the other talking heads, and I do believe he’s part of a community of other deep-sea explorers. I think they probably, at the very least, were able to infer pretty early on what had happened, because there were only a certain number of potential likely outcomes. And I’ll give him some credit that he kept his mouth shut until the debris field was found.

And even if the deep sea community, or any military or intelligence agency with access to the implosion audio did know it existed earlier on, I don’t see how things could have played out any differently—they were always going to have to keep searching for at least the debris. (I’m torn between saying “it was the right thing to do” and “they couldn’t have stopped due to public pressure”, but I’m not sure which one is truer.)

In short … I think there were people who were able to make very well-informed guesses about what had happened very early on, but I think they were right to keep silent until confirmation was obtained. (I don’t think I have an opinion on when the families should have been informed—but I don’t think we even know when they were informed.)

Again, JMO. Again, Cameron is a … butt. And I’ve never seen Titanic, because I don’t like movies with built-in sad endings. (I do remember thinking The Abyss was the most amazing thing I’d ever seen when it came out.)

 

[Arkay]

The customer with a son that backed out posted on FB and shared the text exchanges he had with Stockton and he said, "while there are risks, it's safer than riding in a helicopter or scuba diving" So when someone is expressing fear of it being dangerous that is his response

Prior to last weekend, nobody had died or even been seriously injured traveling down to see Titanic. By contrast, many have been seriously injured or killed in helicopters or when scuba diving. Strictly speaking, SR wasn't lying.

Rush also told the Bloom father and son that his submersible was safer than crossing the street.

IMO his argument is extremely facetious.

It‘s certainly true that many have died in helicopter accidents. It’s true that many have died crossing a street, etc. But it’s a fallacious argument when put into perspective.

In my city alone, NYC, millions and millions of people cross multiple streets throughout the day. Sometimes, someone is killed. But in proportion to the millions crossing multiple times a day, the percentage is very small.

Helicopter accidents are very frightening, but again, compared to the amount of helicopters flying worldwide, the percentile of people who die this way just cannot be compared to these deaths on a submersible.


How many people in the world have been in a submersible to the depths of the Titanic, in terms of world population? Compared to the world population who have crossed a street?

I‘ve only been on one helicopter ride, in Hawaii. But today alone in NYC, I have no idea how many streets I’ve crossed.
Many. In my entire life I’ve only personally known one individual who was killed crossing a street here.

In the very small community of those who have gone to this depth in the sea, this venture had a 100% death rate.


IMO Rush’s argument was a snake oil salesman type. Talk fast, don’t give them time to think, act confident about what you’re saying. I will grant that he went on this venture himself, but IMO he knew that half of what he said was completely untrue. It goes with his mantra that “safety is a waste.”

 

[MsMarple]

RBBM

I will wait for assessments made by structural and mechanical engineers, as well as other subject-matter experts.

JMVHO.

Duh, I realized my post sounded like I was responding to your opinion about what caused the Titan to implode. Sorry about that, I was responding about the movie and kind of segued into thoughts from a link posted upthread. Apologies.

 

[Boxer]

[bbm]

I think it's called 'crash energy' - applies to car seats too

If there was no designated operational life of the carbon titanium hull, like 30 dives and its retired, basically they were going to dive in it until it failed.

 

[JDG]

He was trapped on the ocean floor for three days. Even that wasn’t enough to dull the allure of the deep sea

Roger Mallinson watched the five-day search for the Titan submersible this week with an acute sense of dread. But he understands the ocean’s pull.

www.thestar.com

 

[justtrish]

Prior to last weekend, nobody had died or even been seriously injured traveling down to see Titanic. By contrast, many have been seriously injured or killed in helicopters or when scuba diving. Strictly speaking, SR wasn't lying.

The problem is that he believed the safety of his own "innovative" submersible was comparable to the safety of earlier subs that had followed tried and tested guidelines. It's like comparing a Saturn V to fireworks strapped on a barrel.

I'd say the number of helicopters and scuba divers FAR exceeds the number of those submersible's or people that have traveled in one of them. I am guessing, but 1000s of times more helicopter trips or scuba divers have likely arrived safely every day.

 

[justtrish]

Rush also told the Bloom father and son that his submersible was safer than crossing the street.

IMO his argument is extremely facetious.

It‘s certainly true that many have died in helicopter accidents. It’s true that many have died crossing a street, etc. But it’s a fallacious argument when put into perspective.

In my city alone, NYC, millions and millions of people cross multiple streets throughout the day. Sometimes, someone is killed. But in proportion to the millions crossing multiple times a day, the percentage is very small.

Helicopter accidents are very frightening, but again, compared to the amount of helicopters flying worldwide, the percentile of people who die this way just cannot be compared to these deaths on a submersible.


How many people in the world have been in a submersible to the depths of the Titanic, in terms of world population? Compared to the world population who have crossed a street?

I‘ve only been on one helicopter ride, in Hawaii. But today alone in NYC, I have no idea how many streets I’ve crossed.
Many. In my entire life I’ve only personally known one individual who was killed crossing a street here.

In the very small community of those who have gone to this depth in the sea, this venture had a 100% death rate.


IMO Rush’s argument was a snake oil salesman type. Talk fast, don’t give them time to think, act confident about what you’re saying. I will grant that he went on this venture himself, but IMO he knew that half of what he said was completely untrue. It goes with his mantra that “safety is a waste.”

Yes this is exactly what I was trying to point out about his claims. When we are looking at this waiver that lists all these things, I don't think it's right to assume they knew the risks. I was pointing out that the guy trying to talk them into this trip was downplaying risk, as you also said. I think there could be liability there. We can't try to talk people into something they feel is risky and then say they knew and signed a waiver. I don't know exactly how to put into words what I'm feeling, but it feels icky. He wanted the money to finance his endeavors and it also benefited him to have others believe this was safe.

 

[Charlot123]

I am in a limbo here but let us wait for the official conclusions. Rush made one big mistake during this voyage, and this is what i hold against him, but I can't call him a grifter.

To be frank, any expeditionary-type discovery is probably made by the same type of people, and led by the same type of people. We consider Captain Scott a hero, well aware that he was driven by ambition, financial circumstances and yearning for the fame of being the first. To add, he had an obstinate character and was later accused of poor planning as well. Still, a hero.

Take Roald Amundsen, his nemesis. His memory about an explorer's book:
"I read them with a fervid fascination which has shaped the whole course of my life".

This "fervid fascination" is probably what describes all such characters, including Rush. Amundsen was not always straightforward about his goals. He planned his Antarctic expedition better than most, probably due to his experience from living with the Inuits. But, he died as he lived, and it, too, was for fame. Legends were told about his abrasive and competitive nature.

Perhaps it is is best described here. (I read Nobile's memoirs too, so, in general, close).

Nobile’s drama and Amundsen’s end

The conquest of the North Pole was highly contested in the 1920s. Arguments, insults and mishaps were part of the daily routine.

polarjournal.ch

In short, if I were asked to guess if Rush were driven by the money or the fame + "fervid fascination", I'd say, the latter. I wouldn't be surprised if he invested way more into these endeavors. Ambitious, obstinate, overly relying on himself to the degree that he ended up dying himself and taking four other people with him - doesn't it sound familiar? Weren't most of the famed explorers the same?

Over centuries, how many of them died, ruined ships, airplanes and took others with them? But then one would achieve, return back, and the mankind would discover the New World, or get a better map of the Earth.

So this is what I think of it today. It's the type we are dealing with. And all their constructions were often held together with spit because of financial constraints. Today, the materials are more flimsy, the trend is towards lightweight, and the obvious is seen sooner.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

The US and Canadian authorities mobilized submarines, aircraft, and sonar buoys in their quest to locate the lost submersible. Specialized equipment, including the US Navy's Flyaway Deep Ocean Salvage System (FADOSS) and a French deep-diving robot, were utilized during the operation. The use of these resources, coupled with the scale and duration of the mission, is estimated to have resulted in costs reaching into the millions.

Retired Admiral Paul Zukunft, former leader of the Coast Guard, emphasized that it would be unusual for OceanGate Expeditions to bear the financial burden of the rescue operation. Comparing it to a private citizen's boat sinking, he stated that the responsibility for recovering individuals typically falls on the government, with no expectation of reimbursement.

As the search-and-rescue operation for the missing Titanic submersible concludes with the presumed deaths of its crew members, the costs incurred are estimated to be significant. Despite the expenses involved, it is unlikely that OceanGate Expeditions will be held accountable for repaying the government for the rescue efforts.

Rescue efforts for missing OceanGate's Titanic submersible estimated in millions, but who will bear the cost?

Experts believe that OceanGate, the company operating the vessel, is unlikely to be held responsible for reimbursing the US government for the rescue efforts

www.hindustantimes.com

 

[Blondiexoxo]

I understand the dangers of the OceanGate window, materials, vessel, operations etc... I just don't understand why no one did any research before boarding? There's evidence of lawsuits against SR/OG. There's one heck of a scary waiver passengers were required to sign. Did the desire to see the Titanic override personal due diligence?? Everyone accuses OG for using shoddy material, SR for schmoozing passengers, the list grows longer every minute... It just amazes me when one's life is at stake on such an adventure and no one cares to do research as to who (or what company) has their lives (or the lives of their loved ones) in their hands. I suppose I just see things differently.

There are adventures to the front lines of war zones... I guess everyone will just blame the operators for taking people there, too.

I fully agree, I know this isn’t even in the same league but I remember my father having a very rare surgery back in 2014, it was ground breaking and had only been performed a handful of times ever, in the world. I was terrified, I asked him for the name of the surgeon, the hospital, the exact name and spelling of the surgery and I stayed up all night researching this surgeon and reading about what the surgery involved, the risks involved. There was a high risk of paralysis or death but my dad chose to take the risk due to how much the surgery would improve his quality of life. I remember calling him one night crying begging him not to do it because of how risky it was. He knew the risks already, had been well informed by the surgeon he went several times to visit him before the day to go through everything involved.

The day of the surgery I was a nervous wreck, I said my goodbyes to him that morning, I said goodbye and we exchanged I love yous believing that could well be the last we ever spoke to eachother. I spent the day checking my phone constantly expecting to hear something had gone wrong, luckily it went well. Ironically it was a freak sudden accident that took his life two years later. Looking back I am greatful he went through with it because we got to say our goodbyes then that we didn’t get to have before his tragic death. I just hope the families were all aware of how dangerous this was and that they too got to have a few moments exchanging hugs and saying goodbye beforehand.

I’m astounded that anyone would take this risk to see the titanic wreck when I’m sure there are 3D exhibits now where you get a kind of virtual reality experience that is like being down there, without actually being down there. Some people when they get older are set in the ‘I’ve had a good life’ mantra and willingly take more risks to do things they’ve always wanted to do. But the 19 year old had a whole life ahead of him, and it was risked to travel thousands of feet to the bottom of the ocean in something quite frankly as sturdy as a Pringles tube, to see an old ship wreck. I just hope the experts are right and that they never knew a thing, my worry is that warning signals were going off and there were atleast a few seconds/minutes of panic, trying to ascend before the ultimate implosion.

That is the only part in this where I’d be glad if one of SR’s claims about his ‘safe’ Titan weren’t correct. If the emergency signals didn’t go off I think it’d be easier for families to cope with if they genuinely didn’t know anything but the excitement for their trip under the sea. The thought of the pure panic especially in Suleman who by his aunts account was already scared about the experience is what is keeping me up at night so I hope for all their sakes they knew absolutely nothing.

MOO

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

Rush also told the Bloom father and son that his submersible was safer than crossing the street.

IMO his argument is extremely facetious.

It‘s certainly true that many have died in helicopter accidents. It’s true that many have died crossing a street, etc. But it’s a fallacious argument when put into perspective.

In my city alone, NYC, millions and millions of people cross multiple streets throughout the day. Sometimes, someone is killed. But in proportion to the millions crossing multiple times a day, the percentage is very small.

Helicopter accidents are very frightening, but again, compared to the amount of helicopters flying worldwide, the percentile of people who die this way just cannot be compared to these deaths on a submersible.


How many people in the world have been in a submersible to the depths of the Titanic, in terms of world population? Compared to the world population who have crossed a street?

I‘ve only been on one helicopter ride, in Hawaii. But today alone in NYC, I have no idea how many streets I’ve crossed.
Many. In my entire life I’ve only personally known one individual who was killed crossing a street here.

In the very small community of those who have gone to this depth in the sea, this venture had a 100% death rate.


IMO Rush’s argument was a snake oil salesman type. Talk fast, don’t give them time to think, act confident about what you’re saying. I will grant that he went on this venture himself, but IMO he knew that half of what he said was completely untrue. It goes with his mantra that “safety is a waste.”

Of course more people cross the street or fly in helicopters than dive in a submersible down to Titanic.

But from Alvin in 1986 onwards there was a 100% survival rate lasting 37 years, which is an incredible safety record. Even NASA lost two shuttles in just 135 launches over a 30-year span--and ironically Challenger was lost for similar reasons to Titan: the people in charge didn't listen to the experts who said the design was flawed.

I believe James Cameron has said he dove to Titanic 33 times, and that doesn't include his many dives to other, even deeper areas of the ocean. PH Nargeolet had been to Titanic almost 40 times, and in his entire career had made hundreds, if not a thousand dives around the world.

If submersible builders had continued to stick to tried and tested methods there's no reason to think the 100% survival rate wouldn't have continued indefinitely. There's always an inherent risk to diving so deep but other submersibles were well-engineered and have proven to be as safe as it's possible to make them. The risk is minimized as much as it possibly can be.

Stockton Rush was standing on the shoulders of giants gloating about being the tallest. Of course what he said was salesman speak. But that didn't make what he said untrue in the strictest sense: nobody who dove to Titanic had died in almost 40 years.

Nobody, until Stockton Rush decided to break all the rules.

 

[CrimeDawg123]

Yes this is exactly what I was trying to point out about his claims. When we are looking at this waiver that lists all these things, I don't think it's right to assume they knew the risks. I was pointing out that the guy trying to talk them into this trip was downplaying risk, as you also said. I think there could be liability there. We can't try to talk people into something they feel is risky and then say they knew and signed a waiver. I don't know exactly how to put into words what I'm feeling, but it feels icky. He wanted the money to finance his endeavors and it also benefited him to have others believe this was safe.

I think you put it into words perfectly!

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Amy Allbritton, the state’s search and rescue program manager, explains why: “Our mission is to rescue individuals in the backcountry — not just the ones who can afford it.”

It’s an egalitarian ethos, carried out largely by volunteer rescuers who are avid backcountry explorers themselves. But does that guiding principle hold when those who need rescuing — like the passengers aboard the submersible that imploded while trying to visit the sunken Titanic — are megarich adventure tourists taking extreme risks?

Allbritton hesitated as she considered the question. “I mean, potentially,” she said. “I’m not sure where my opinion lies on that.”

Modern adventure tourism ventures into uncharted territory ethically as well as geographically. The tragedy that befell the journey by Everett-based OceanGate Expeditions, requiring an international rescue operation that may cost taxpayersmillions of dollars, raises many questions. Should there be more regulation? If so, who should set and enforce the rules? Are rescue operations even possible in some places extreme tourists are going?

Take space, for example.

Josef Koller, co-founder of The Space Safety Institute, asked what would happen if an Apollo 13-like mishap happened to a commercial rocket — leaving tourists stuck in lunar orbit, unable to return to Earth.

“There’s no strategy in place,” said Koller, whose institute is operated by The Aerospace Corp., a nonprofit that advises government and commercial space programs. “There are no rules and responsibilities assigned. … There’s no Coast Guard that can go out with several ships and search for a submarine.”

Titanic sub disaster shines spotlight on ethics of adventure travel

Should there be more regulation? If so, who should set and enforce the rules? Are rescue operations even possible in some places extreme tourists are going?

www.seattletimes.com