Trial Discussion Thread #11 weekend thread

[steveml]

If I took a pee (just a pee!!) in the middle of the night when everyone was asleep, I wouldn't flush in case I woke someone up. I would always use toilet paper though. Women don't drip dry!

Thanks for your honesty. See girls, you are human after all. I'm gonna keep an eye on things from now on. I'll post my results once I've got enough evidence. :wink:

 

[Viper]

You may well facepalm. Here's your original post above.

Whatever your view on the politics and race issues within SA this is not the forum for it. I'm not suggesting that it's off-topic, however if we're going to get into discussions regarding this we would need to start a new thread. I think most of the posters in this thread accept that we are all discussing this case on the basis of it's merit without any suggestive influence of colour or creed.

I did not post that statement Steve, I honestly believe that you actually wrote and posted that, or something very much like that, as I recall reading your post in the past day or so.

 

[Insp.Dots]

Was just thinking we haven't heard a single mention of finger prints have we? I want to know if RSs last text was to her Joberg family and if they found any of his finger prints on her phone or whatever she used. G Myers said about the text in the documentary, apparently sent around 10pm....she also said, almost as an afterthought it was the first time ever that RS hadn't said "Night my G, I love you"...I am probably over thinking but we do need to hear the cell phone evidence that's for sure!

 

[minor4th]

So they both heard 6 shots - and yet nobody other than the Stipps claims there were 6 shots. Did OP shoot into the air from his balcony one wonders. Nobody has mentioned how many bullets, if any, were left in his gun. Though equally nobody knows how many were in there to start with.

I do bevlieve there was testimony about the capacity of the magazine but I can't remember if it was 5 or 8 I assume that if there were bullets unaccounted for that certainly would have been brought up by Nel - or maybe this is part of his case next week.

Mrs. Stipp heard two sets of 3 loud bangs - 10-17 minutes apart. Of course it is the defense case that one set of bangs was the cricket bat hitting the door. The state so far has no explanation for the loud bangs heard by Dr and Mrs Stipp at 3:10 ish.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

IMBW, but I am sure I recall the pathologist Saymaan saying that her nigh empty bladder was NOT indicative of her having used the toilet at that time as she would have had the same amount of urine in her bladder had she gone an hour or two earlier, which would place her using the loo just around the time after she last ate... much more logical imo.

Can't remember that but I would be surprised if it could be that empty after a couple of hours but hey I am not a pathologist, in ant event the point i am really trying to thrash out was his version of events . if she had gone to bed a 10 o'clock she clearly must have been to the loo since that time ,hence the near empty bladder which means she would have had to have got up ,gone to the loo without OP hearing or noticing which I personally feel is highly unlikely so would be not inclined to believe his version of events but obviously things can only help if there is firm evidence beyond doubt

 

[LemonMousse]

So they both heard 6 shots - and yet nobody other than the Stipps claims there were 6 shots. Did OP shoot into the air from his balcony one wonders. Nobody has mentioned how many bullets, if any, were left in his gun. Though equally nobody knows how many were in there to start with.

I wondered exactly the same thing. I was told that there was proof that he only fired four shots that night, which is obviously not true. There is only evidence for four shots - what evidence would shots out a window leave? Did anyone search the garden?

I think it's perfectly plausible to wonder if these were the first bangs Stipp heard. An enraged OP could easily have been terrifying her by shooting out the window which would cause her screams to increase in intensity, as the witnesses said.

Stipp was adamant that both sets were gunshots and OP has been known to fire out of windows before. Makes sense to me.

But I was told the last set MUST have been cricket bat bangs because, er, OP said they were.

There's literally NO evidence that OP smashed down the door with the cricket bat...none. A few marks where the veneer has been gouged out does not indicate desperate door smashing - dents and cracks might, and where exactly are they on the door.

The door broke because the panels were prised out, that's why they are all in big, neat pieces. I don't doubt that OP used the cricket bat on the door - but smashed it in with whacks so loud they could be heard as far as the Stipp house? No way.

Personally, I think the following:

Big row that got bigger and bigger - neither had slept
Reeva locks OP out of the bedroom so he kicks the door and (maybe) shoots it
He gets in (finds another key) waving the gun
She runs to the bathroom, locks herself in the loo
"Get out of my house" flings jeans out of the window
Tells her to come out, smacks the door a few times with the bat to scare her - these are the relatively minor gauge marks
She still won't come out so he, standing by the open window, fires a couple of shots outside and tells her he'll shoot the lock off if she doesn't come out
She screams, screams, screams.....he shoots in the direction of the lock and kills her
Panics and calls Stander
Stander says, do nothing, call no one, I'm on my way
Security show up - panicked, horrified OP says "Everything is fine" as instructed by Stander
Unfortunately security and Stipp come to the house at the same time as Stander, so whatever the plan was couldn't now happen
ALL OP could say at this stage was "I thought she was an intruder" - what else was there?

By the way, I am not necessarily accusing Stander of dishonesty or conspiracy, I think OP could just have said, "I've killed Reeva" and he may not have been coherent enough for Stander to understand what had happened. This is why he needed to get to the house before he called anyone.

That's my theory....and I am well aware that it's pure supposition on my part

 

[Cherwell]

If I took a pee (just a pee!!) in the middle of the night when everyone was asleep, I wouldn't flush in case I woke someone up.

Ah, but she knew he was awake. He was up getting the fans in, wasn't he? So he says.

 

[kittychi]

Question to anyone who has their mind made up on OP's Guilt of 'intentional murder'. Is there anything the defence or prosecution could bring in that would change your mind?

Perhaps...from Defense:

1. "love notes" or loving texts from OP to Reeva which could help validate the statement in his affi that they were very much in love.

2. Testimony from his gardner who apparently was there and took care of the dogs after OP was arrested.

3. A full accounting of where the dogs were and explanation why they did not bark that night

4. A full accounting and explanation for all the blood not yet addressed that was in the bedroom and explanation for the damage to the bedroom door whether it was or was not part of the scene that evening.

5. A viable explanation for a woman's "blood curdling" screams heard by neighbors.

those are a few off the top of my head...thanks for asking

:seeya:

.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I do bevlieve there was testimony about the capacity of the magazine but I can't remember if it was 5 or 8 I assume that if there were bullets unaccounted for that certainly would have been brought up by Nel - or maybe this is part of his case next week.

Mrs. Stipp heard two sets of 3 loud bangs - 10-17 minutes apart. Of course it is the defense case that one set of bangs was the cricket bat hitting the door. The state so far has no explanation for the loud bangs heard by Dr and Mrs Stipp at 3:10 ish.

I have forgotten ,is it the stipp's house that backs on to OP's house making them one of the closest neighbours ?

 

[Rumpole]

Thanks for your honesty. See girls, you are human after all. I'm gonna keep an eye on things from now on. I'll post my results once I've got enough evidence. :wink:

OP (being a male chauvinist) probably has a rule that in his house you leave the toilet seat UP!

Maybe he shot Reeva for leaving it down?

 

[steveml]

I did not post that statement Steve, I honestly believe that you actually wrote and posted that, or something very much like that, as I recall reading your post in the past day or so.

I'm afraid I don't have the ability to post and include your name and thread details at the top of a posting, the forum mods will clarify that.
I'm not overly concerned, I've made my point and moved on.

<modsnip>

 

[Viper]

Can't remember that but I would be surprised if it could be that empty after a couple of hours but hey I am not a pathologist, in ant event the point i am really trying to thrash out was his version of events . if she had gone to bed a 10 o'clock she clearly must have been to the loo since that time ,hence the near empty bladder which means she would have had to have got up ,gone to the loo without OP hearing or noticing which I personally feel is highly unlikely so would be not inclined to believe his version of events but obviously things can only help if there is firm evidence beyond doubt

Was just thinking we haven't heard a single mention of finger prints have we? I want to know if RSs last text was to her Joberg family and if they found any of his finger prints on her phone or whatever she used. G Myers said about the text in the documentary, apparently sent around 10pm....she also said, almost as an afterthought it was the first time ever that RS hadn't said "Night my G, I love you"...I am probably over thinking but we do need to hear the cell phone evidence that's for sure!

BIB So that is where Roux and his team got the reference point for the story (affidavit)! OP had gotten in to bed at about 10:00 and Reeva was doing yoga, presumably after sending the text.

Thanks!

 

[Cherwell]

Can't remember that but I would be surprised if it could be that empty after a couple of hours but hey I am not a pathologist, in ant event the point i am really trying to thrash out was his version of events . if she had gone to bed a 10 o'clock she clearly must have been to the loo since that time ,hence the near empty bladder which means she would have had to have got up ,gone to the loo without OP hearing or noticing which I personally feel is highly unlikely so would be not inclined to believe his version of events but obviously things can only help if there is firm evidence beyond doubt

If they had sex when they went to bed at 10 pm, which is feasible, she would probably have gone to the loo afterwards. No reason why he wouldn't know about it.

 

[steveml]

I do bevlieve there was testimony about the capacity of the magazine but I can't remember if it was 5 or 8 I assume that if there were bullets unaccounted for that certainly would have been brought up by Nel - or maybe this is part of his case next week.

Mrs. Stipp heard two sets of 3 loud bangs - 10-17 minutes apart. Of course it is the defense case that one set of bangs was the cricket bat hitting the door. The state so far has no explanation for the loud bangs heard by Dr and Mrs Stipp at 3:10 ish.

As far as I'm aware the gun was a Taurus 9mm Parabellum which usually has a 10-round magazine, however I can't remember how many bullets were loaded.

 

[LemonMousse]

It's interesting that the sex issue hasn't been raised at all. Saayman would definitely have checked for that as it's routine in cases of women who have been murdered. If there was evidence of recent sexual activity, I think Roux would want that highlighted to form part of the "We were madly in love" narrative.

 

[steveml]

If they had sex when they went to bed at 10 pm, which is feasible, she would probably have gone to the loo afterwards. No reason why he wouldn't know about it.

Loo at 10.02 then. And I certainly hoped she wiped. :giggle:

 

[Gavel Rash]

I think it carries 8 rounds 1 photographed taken from chamber after event..that indicates 7...4 accounted for? 3 not? Was the first sounds heard 3 then followed by 4?

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I wondered exactly the same thing. I was told that there was proof that he only fired four shots that night, which is obviously not true. There is only evidence for four shots - what evidence would shots out a window leave? Did anyone search the garden?

I think it's perfectly plausible to wonder if these were the first bangs Stipp heard. An enraged OP could easily have been terrifying her by shooting out the window which would cause her screams to increase in intensity, as the witnesses said.

Stipp was adamant that both sets were gunshots and OP has been known to fire out of windows before. Makes sense to me.

But I was told the last set MUST have been cricket bat bangs because, er, OP said they were.

There's literally NO evidence that OP smashed down the door with the cricket bat...none. A few marks where the veneer has been gouged out does not indicate desperate door smashing - dents and cracks might, and where exactly are they on the door.

The door broke because the panels were prised out, that's why they are all in big, neat pieces. I don't doubt that OP used the cricket bat on the door - but smashed it in with whacks so loud they could be heard as far as the Stipp house? No way.

Personally, I think the following:

Big row that got bigger and bigger - neither had slept
Reeva locks OP out of the bedroom so he kicks the door and (maybe) shoots it
He gets in (finds another key) waving the gun
She runs to the bathroom, locks herself in the loo
"Get out of my house" flings jeans out of the window
Tells her to come out, smacks the door a few times with the bat to scare her - these are the relatively minor gauge marks
She still won't come out so he, standing by the open window, fires a couple of shots outside and tells her he'll shoot the lock off if she doesn't come out
She screams, screams, screams.....he shoots in the direction of the lock and kills her
Panics and calls Stander
Stander says, do nothing, call no one, I'm on my way
Security show up - panicked, horrified OP says "Everything is fine" as instructed by Stander
Unfortunately security and Stipp come to the house at the same time as Stander, so whatever the plan was couldn't now happen
ALL OP could say at this stage was "I thought she was an intruder" - what else was there?

By the way, I am not necessarily accusing Stander of dishonesty or conspiracy, I think OP could just have said, "I've killed Reeva" and he may not have been coherent enough for Stander to understand what had happened. This is why he needed to get to the house before he called anyone.

That's my theory....and I am well aware that it's pure supposition on my part

Sadly that could be true and I don't suppose we will ever really know but it is possible that if there was two sets of shots poor Reeva was maybe injured by the first set of shots and left in agony until he decided he would finish the job off with the second shots . Just a possible scenario . Someone posted before that as he couldn't see her through the door and didn't pause for long before shooting then she was very unlucky to have been hit by three out of four shots or ......... he could see her through a crack in the door or maybe by looking through the first bullet hole ( assuming that the lights were on not off as OP describes)
The defence are expected to try and disprove the sequence of the shots as they don't want there to be proof of her screaming but I am not sure they will be able to do that as they now have her facing forward and bending over whilst she was about to exit the loo. Another stretch for my imagination but will wait until I have heard there case before commenting further because there are so many different scenarios that we could think of .

 

[Rumpole]

As far as I'm aware the gun was a Taurus 9mm Parabellum which usually has a 10-round magazine, however I can't remember how many bullets were loaded.

It's stretch to imagine that OP set up false ear witness evidence in advance :floorlaugh:

The State have conceded that only 4 shots were fired. There were only 4 shell casings found. OP and the property were searched. I guess his plan and "false evidence trail" could have been so finely worked out that he swallowed 3 or 4 cartridge shells?
A risky strategy given his propensity for public vomiting :floorlaugh:

Occam's Razor where are you.
TWO events that did for sure cause loud bangs.
TWO sets of loud bangs heard by witnesses.

 

[steveml]

I think it carries 8 rounds 1 photographed taken from chamber after event..that indicates 7...4 accounted for? 3 not? Was the first sounds heard 3 then followed by 4?

Just checked. Gun carries magazines of either 6, 10 or 12 rounds.