trial thread: 3/22/2012

[dilbert]

]I must not be getting the reasonable doubt thing. Why does it matter if she was talking to Tori or not. [/B] I've never ever heard that being brought up in any of the trials I've followed over the years. I've never heard a defense attorney ask a witness if they were talking to their victim or listening to music? Motive doesn't need to be proven as far as I know and besides, she admitted to guilt.

If she says (on the stand) she was talking to Tori while walking up the street, but can be proven that she wasn't, through eyewitnesses, then it's showing that she's LYING ON THE STAND under oath! What else is she lying about under oath and why?

MOO

 

[ChaChaCha]

I must not be getting the reasonable doubt thing. Why does it matter if she was talking to Tori or not. I've never ever heard that being brought up in any of the trials I've followed over the years. I've never heard a defense attorney ask a witness if they were talking to their victim or listening to music? Motive doesn't need to be proven as far as I know and besides, she admitted to guilt.

People's Court doesnt count LOL! (Jokin!!!) Its only in the last few months that tweets have even been allowed in a courtroom - starting with the infamous R. Williams.... so quite often the public gets bits and pieces or dribbles of info - not nearly the amount of info as now, nor nearly as quickly. The defence attorney can ask pretty much what he likes, so long as it is in line with the forms filed prior to the court date. I haven't heard the Crown object to a single thing!!!

And the defence team can play music if they like (remember Dianne Downs Crazy Like the Wolf???). They can even do a soft shoe routine if they like!

 

[Hello_Kitty]

I must not be getting the reasonable doubt thing. Why does it matter if she was talking to Tori or not. I've never ever heard that being brought up in any of the trials I've followed over the years. I've never heard a defense attorney ask a witness if they were talking to their victim or listening to music? Motive doesn't need to be proven as far as I know and besides, she admitted to guilt.

I believe in the beginning of the trial the crown said that her credibility (sp) would come into question. That's what the defense is attacking with all these questions which we may think are irrelevant? He is trying to prove that she may have lied about MTR being at the crime scene... I guess every little thing counts which makes me think perhaps the crown has some good evidence that he was there/

 

[captaincanada]

LOL....I'm not so sure. Maybe he dosed off a few times...like me! Does the jury really care if TLM was listening to music on her IPOD. Really?

You're missing the whole point of what the picture the defense is trying to paint. These aren't ill-thought out questions, they are all relevant to their defense. Today was very interesting. Let me give you the take on what the defense is doing IN MY OPINION. They are trying to paint a picture of MTR as completely innocent.

Here is the picture they COULD be trying to paint.

TLM is an extremely VIOLENT person.
TLM is a LIAR and very manipulative (she managed to resist police questioning).
TLM is an extremely VENGEFUL person.
TLM is a hard gang banger (or thinks she is).
TLM has already admitted to killing Tori.

TLM knew TM and JG (again this is what I think the defense could be implying).

TLM targeted Tori for ______ insert reason here: (drug debt owed by TM or JG, revenge for getting screwed around with dog breeding etc.)

TLM planned and set up the whole thing and MTR was simply an unknowing accomplice.

MTR was told by TLM to pick her up at the Caressant Care Nursing Home at a certain time.

TLM meanwhile followed Tori from school (notice how the defense was insinuating that TLM was NOT having a conversation with Tori but rather just walking in front of her or that Tori was following her?) This would go in line that Tori knew TLM and TLM was telling her to follow her. Perhaps TLM would have said, "come with me, your mom is at my place". TLM knowing Tori implies that she knew TM and JG and therefore vengeful reason for killing Tori can be implied.

TLM was listening to hardcore violent rap "Creepy Crawl by Necro" before abducting Tori in order to pysche herself up.

Tori follows TLM to the car and gets in.
TLM tells MTR to go to Guelph.
TLM tells Tori that she is bringing her to her parents.
MTR gets his Tim Hortons and visits his drug dealer (who could be so non-chalent after abducting a child??)
TLM instructs MTR to go to Home Depot because she has to pick something up.
After Home Depot TLM then kills Tori in the back seat of the car and makes MTR help get rid of her body by implying that he's deep into this and threatens his life and his family's if he doesn't aid her.
MTR drives her to Mount Forest to help her get rid of the body.

MTR did nothing but get mixed up with the wrong person. TLM is the one walking on video with Tori and the one on video buying the hammer and garbage bags. TLM is the KNOWN violent, manipulative LIAR, not MTR.


(This, or something like this, is about the only defense I can see for MTR, even though it is a weak one)

 

[matou]

If she says (on the stand) she was talking to Tori while walking up the street, but can be proven that she wasn't, through eyewitnesses, then it's showing that she's LYING ON THE STAND under oath! What else is she lying about under oath and why?

MOO

How can they prove that TLM was not talking to Tori? There weren't people walking right next to them or following behind them all the way to the car and if there were, this abduction would have been witnessed. JMO

 

[~n/t~]

If she says (on the stand) she was talking to Tori while walking up the street, but can be proven that she wasn't, through eyewitnesses, then it's showing that she's LYING ON THE STAND under oath! What else is she lying about under oath and why?

MOO

She's a liar. She lied to the cops. The interviews were presented to this jury. Do you think perjury will make a difference when she's serving 25 years behind bars? Do you really believe the swearing on the bible will make her suddenly tell the truth? I have no idea what else she's lying about. She could be lying that she killed Tori and perhaps MR was the killer.

 

[JayFriend]

In fairness, I do have to admit that reading tweets versus being in court is not the same at all and body language, tone of voice, may play some role for this jury. It's not the same.

Plus, we're getting tweets from multiple reporters posted here by multiple participants, some in chronological order, others in reverse order and they appear here all shuffled together. When the trial began, I was reading this forum and following the tweets of a couple of reporters and it just proved too much. I sure wish Canada would move into the 21st century and live stream court proceedings. A continuous transcript would be good too.

 

[dilbert]

You're missing the whole point of what the picture the defense is trying to paint. These aren't ill-thought out questions, they are all relevant to their defense. Today was very interesting. Let me give you the take on what the defense is doing IN MY OPINION. They are trying to paint a picture of MTR as completely innocent.

Here is the picture they COULD be trying to paint.

TLM is an extremely VIOLENT person.
TLM is a LIAR and very manipulative (she managed to resist police questioning).
TLM is an extremely VENGEFUL person.
TLM is a hard gang banger (or thinks she is).
TLM has already admitted to killing Tori.

TLM knew TM and JG (again this is what I think the defense could be implying).

TLM targeted Tori for ______ insert reason here: (drug debt owed by TM or JG, revenge for getting screwed around with dog breeding etc.)

TLM planned and set up the whole thing and MTR was simply an unknowing accomplice.

MTR was told by TLM to pick her up at the Caressant Care Nursing Home at a certain time.

TLM meanwhile followed Tori from school (notice how the defense was insinuating that TLM was NOT having a conversation with Tori but rather just walking in front of her or that Tori was following her?) This would go in line that Tori knew TLM and TLM was telling her to follow her. Perhaps TLM would have said, "come with me, your mom is at my place". TLM knowing Tori implies that she knew TM and JG and therefore vengeful reason for killing Tori can be implied.

TLM was listening to hardcore violent rap "Creepy Crawl by Necro" before abducting Tori in order to pysche herself up.

Tori follows TLM to the car and gets in.
TLM tells MTR to go to Guelph.
TLM tells Tori that she is bringing her to her parents.
MTR gets his Tim Hortons and visits his drug dealer (who could be so non-chalent after abducting a child??)
TLM instructs MTR to go to Home Depot because she has to pick something up.
After Home Depot TLM then kills Tori in the back seat of the car and makes MTR help get rid of her body by implying that he's deep into this and threatens his life and his family's if he doesn't aid her.
MTR drives her to Mount Forest to help her get rid of the body.

MTR did nothing but get mixed up with the wrong person. TLM is the one walking on video with Tori and the one on video buying the hammer and garbage bags. TLM is the KNOWN violent, manipulative LIAR, not MTR.


(This, or something like this, is about the only defense I can see for MTR, even though it is a weak one)

Thank you for taking the time to write it all out.

 

[~n/t~]

You're missing the whole point of what the picture the defense is trying to paint. These aren't ill-thought out questions, they are all relevant to their defense. Today was very interesting. Let me give you the take on what the defense is doing IN MY OPINION. They are trying to paint a picture of MTR as completely innocent.

Here is the picture they COULD be trying to paint.

TLM is an extremely VIOLENT person.
TLM is a LIAR and very manipulative (she managed to resist police questioning).
TLM is an extremely VENGEFUL person.
TLM is a hard gang banger (or thinks she is).
TLM has already admitted to killing Tori.

TLM knew TM and JG (again this is what I think the defense could be implying).

TLM targeted Tori for ______ insert reason here: (drug debt owed by TM or JG, revenge for getting screwed around with dog breeding etc.)

TLM planned and set up the whole thing and MTR was simply an unknowing accomplice.

MTR was told by TLM to pick her up at the Caressant Care Nursing Home at a certain time.

TLM meanwhile followed Tori from school (notice how the defense was insinuating that TLM was NOT having a conversation with Tori but rather just walking in front of her or that Tori was following her?) This would go in line that Tori knew TLM and TLM was telling her to follow her. Perhaps TLM would have said, "come with me, your mom is at my place". TLM knowing Tori implies that she knew TM and JG and therefore vengeful reason for killing Tori can be implied.

TLM was listening to hardcore violent rap "Creepy Crawl by Necro" before abducting Tori in order to pysche herself up.

Tori follows TLM to the car and gets in.
TLM tells MTR to go to Guelph.
TLM tells Tori that she is bringing her to her parents.
MTR gets his Tim Hortons and visits his drug dealer (who could be so non-chalent after abducting a child??)
TLM instructs MTR to go to Home Depot because she has to pick something up.
After Home Depot TLM then kills Tori in the back seat of the car and makes MTR help get rid of her body by implying that he's deep into this and threatens his life and his family's if he doesn't aid her.
MTR drives her to Mount Forest to help her get rid of the body.

MTR did nothing but get mixed up with the wrong person. TLM is the one walking on video with Tori and the one on video buying the hammer and garbage bags. TLM is the KNOWN violent, manipulative LIAR, not MTR.


(This, or something like this, is about the only defense I can see for MTR, even though it is a weak one)

Was MTR at the crime scene?

 

[paris_paris]

LOL....I'm not so sure. Maybe he dosed off a few times...like me! Does the jury really care if TLM was listening to music on her IPOD. Really?

Makes no sense to me they were in the car having a conversation about snatching a kid... MTR liked his music, probably had his favourite CD in the stereo. Did she stop to stick her earbuds in and turn on her ipod as she hopped out of the car to snatch a kid?

Little pieces that don't fit together for me... that's why I don't mind all the facts, even if they are repetitive.

That's possible too, maybe TLM kidnapped Tori so she could rape her.

MOO

Maybe. TLM wrote a letter about raping somebody's sister.

------------------

I'm under the impression all of these awful letters were written while she was in jail previously. No mention of any of them being found in her journal or notebook at home.

Just a salad of stuff in my head.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I don't think that the defence is trying to make the argument that music made TLM do it. I think they are using it along with letters to friends and her prior violent acts to show that TLM has a fascination with violence. That her rage isn't 'just' seen in her very violent behavior, it is something she thinks about constantly.

 

[~n/t~]

I believe in the beginning of the trial the crown said that her credibility (sp) would come into question. That's what the defense is attacking with all these questions which we may think are irrelevant? He is trying to prove that she may have lied about MTR being at the crime scene... I guess every little thing counts which makes me think perhaps the crown has some good evidence that he was there/

That's right. The Crown did say her credibility would come into question. They already warned this jury. They also provided the interviews that proved she may have lied to the cops. I think we can all agree that she's a liar and that this jury probably knows it as well. So, the defense is doing the same thing but adding insignificant details about music, debts and shitzu breeding?

All I'm trying to get at is it's all been said over and over. She's a liar. A kidnapper. A child murderer.

Where was MR?

 

[roseofsharon]

NECRO

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necrophilia"]Necrophilia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame] :what:

So disgusting and sick!!

:moo::moo::moo:

 

[~n/t~]

The jurors also saw the other side. The abused child. They may end up blaming MR for manipulating her and taking advantage of her.

MR is the one who allegedly approached her at the pizza place not the other way around!

 

[antiquegirl]

Really? I'm fed up with TLM on the stand, frankly. It's repetitive, it's boring and it's totally irrelevant to this case, imo.

Let's focus on why we're here, JUDGE! Please!!!

I believe that any lawyer who was familiar with this case would know exactly where Derstine was going with this and why. Derstine is a highly reputable and successful attorney and there is a reason for everything. I’m no lawyer, but it seems pretty obvious to me where at least some of this leading. Just a couple of examples off the top of my head:

All those letters and journal entries TLM wrote describing in graphic detail her fantasies of torturing, murdering, and generally inflicting harm on just about anyone who crosses her (and their familes!) are a direct contradiction of her claim now that she “didn't want to believe she was capable if this”, that she “did not have murder on (her) mind”, etc., etc. Her previous assaults on her mother, in detention, and her conviction for a stabbing are further proof that she was capable of it and had ‘murder on her mind” on a regular basis.

The journal entry with her “script” of what she’ll say if questioned by LE further contradicts that she blocked the crime out of her mind.

RaffertyLFP:

Derstine asks McClintic why she didn't tell tell police she was women in video walking with Tori. She said she blocked it out

This answer was today! Her journal says otherwise. According to that entry less than four days after the murder, she prepared for the eventuality of being questioned about it.

Her connection to TM and JG are to indicate that Tori was targeted and not a random choice.

“"326 students at Oliver Stephens Public School that day," Derstine says. "And (Tori) was the one you picked to talk to?".

“"And you just happened to know her parents?" Derstine says.

"And that she had a shih tzu was just a crazy coincidence?".

I believe this is to set the groundwork to suggest that the abduction was TLM's idea and not MTR's. SHE was the one who had the connection, SHE was the one who may have had a revenge motive (either the dog breeding or a drug debt), SHE was the one who was caught abducting Tori on camera. There has been no proof that MTR knew this family at all. Derstine came right out and said it:

AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

Derstine suggests McClintic was the "engine" that drove the events of April 8th.

If Derstine can prove over and over again that TLM is a big fat liar, that she’s the “murderous b***h” she repeatedly called herself, it raises doubt about the extent of MTR’s involvement, including whose idea it was. Without direct DNA evidence, or a whole truckload of circumstantial ones, the jury only needs reasonable doubt to acquit MTR. Until we see such evidence, Derstine has done a fine job of raising doubt about everything TLM has said so far. Unless I’m mistaken, his next card might be the jealousy and revenge angle on TLM’s part.

I, too, find this all damned fascinating and have complete trust that an experienced attorney knows precisely what he’s doing here. This trial is supposed to last perhaps as long as three months. We've only had three weeks so far. Patience is a virtue.

JMO

 

[Kamille]

If there is one thing I've learned so far, it's that Terry Lynne McClintic has a reason to be vengeful. Against an awful lot of people, starting within her own family. What we have also learned in the past couple of days is that she has never kidnapped or killed any of them. With the exception of her mother, she has never even assaulted any of her "enemies" outside of prison walls.

She has been sexually assaulted by likely more than one man in her youth, with her "mother" turning a blind eye to it. We've read news articles from people who knew her and her mother, who painted her mother as pretty abusive towards her growing up. So she did finally assault her, twice, but she never hacked her up and mutilated her. Her father pretty much abandoned her but she's never sought him out for revenge. She's spent years in detention centres where it's a fight for respect every day I'm sure...but she's never tried to get her "crips posse" together to take revenge out on anyone after getting out. None of the people who have made TLM's life a living hell were ever abducted, assaulted and killed by TLM.

So why would a perceived snubb by some woman who decided not to breed her dog with her mother's dog set off an act so vengeful that not only did she bypass the person or persons who had actually ticked her off, she went straight to their 8 year old innocent daughter?

It's going to take a whole lot of psychiatric experts to explain that one to me.

But whatever the motive, which so far I am not convinced was anything other than sexual, the question is, what is the point of the defence strategy? Either MR was there or he wasn't.

MOO

 

[ChaChaCha]

Where was MR?

For all we know, they were out for a drive ... he pulled over to have a whizz, over by the trees, and when he turned around TLM had murdered TS? We will have to wait until the trial unfolds and more evidence comes out.

 

[Hello_Kitty]

That's right. The Crown did say her credibility would come into question. They already warned this jury. They also provided the interviews that proved she may have lied to the cops. I think we can all agree that she's a liar and that this jury probably knows it as well. So, the defense is doing the same thing but adding insignificant details about music, debts and shitzu breeding?

All I'm trying to get at is it's all been said over and over. She's a liar. A kidnapper. A child murderer.

Where was MR?

I understand how you feel, except that TLM is not on trial, MTR is and she is their star witness who will help convict him in the crown's case or help acquit him in the defence's case. I can see what the defence is trying to do.

 

[dilbert]

How can they prove that TLM was not talking to Tori? There weren't people walking right next to them or following behind them all the way to the car and if there were, this abduction would have been witnessed. JMO

Matou, the parent was standing at the top of the hill that Tori and TLM were walking up, on the same side of the road. She testified that they were not talking, I believe her. Part of the abduction was witnessed, by the parent that saw TLM luring Tori up the hill.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

For all we know, they were out for a drive ... he pulled over to have a whizz, over by the trees, and when he turned around TLM had murdered TS? We will have to wait until the trial unfolds and more evidence comes out.

And he chose to not mention it to LE for six weeks...well forever actually? "Honestly officer, I thought we were just babysitting this kid and when I went to relieve myself on a tree, I came back and my girlfriend had blungeoned her to death with a hammer that she had asked me to take her to HD to buy. And I was so scared about getting blamed that I decided to let you guys spend hundreds of thousands of dollars looking for the child and I was kind of hoping you'd never figure it out."

Nope...can't see that one either. :waitasec:

MOO