trial thread: 3/22/2012

[matou]

For all we know, they were out for a drive ... he pulled over to have a whizz, over by the trees, and when he turned around TLM had murdered TS? We will have to wait until the trial unfolds and more evidence comes out.

Even if he went for a whizz, guilty. Life, no parole. JMO

 

[antiquegirl]

I agree to a certain extent. I don't think that we can know what evidence Derstein has as far as proving that MTR did not know Tara or James, or anything else for that matter. Of course we don't know exactly what evidence the Crown has either, but in their opening statements they said that they have forensics, video etc. Comparitivly speaking we know zippy do da about what the defense has.

(BBM)

The defence has no obligation to prove MTR's innocence (i.e. that he didn't know Tara or JG). It's up to the Crown to prove his guilt (i.e. that he did know Tara or JG). The defence's job is to disprove or raise reasonable doubt about what evidence the Crown presents against his client. The burden of proof is always on the Crown/prosecution.

The defence has exactly the same evidence that the Crown has. Disclosure means that ...

"the Crown has a duty to provide the defence with all evidence that could possibly be relevant to the case, regardless of whether the Crown plans to call that evidence at trial or not, or whether it helps or hurts the Crown's case."

But you're right in that we have no knowledge yet on what (aside from what we've seen so far) the defence has up its sleeve to undermine whatever evidence the Crown has provided in order to ensure that his client gets a fair trial. That's why I'm finding all this so interesting.

JMO

 

[matou]

Matou, the parent was standing at the top of the hill that Tori and TLM were walking up, on the same side of the road. She testified that they were not talking, I believe her. Part of the abduction was witnessed, by the parent that saw TLM luring Tori up the hill.

MOO

I already know all of this. I also believe her. This parent was NOT there during the whole walk and could not have heard them if they were speaking for the duration of the entire walk. JMO

 

[matou]

Why is it always "mildly vindictive" and not mildly vindictive?

I'll let someone else answer that. JMO
EDIT: I see paris already took care of that. So I think it's being used in quotes to relate the events back to Tara, but that is JMO.

 

[Hello_Kitty]

I'm no psychiatrist, but my first thought is projecting blame.

http://www.angriesout.com/grown18.htm

IMO, in TLM's mind, she wants to believe TS followed her, so it's the child's fault - ugh :banghead:

Just MOO.

Funny you should say that, other than painting her as a liar, Derstine was suggesting by his line of questioning that she was casting blame on everyone but herself

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I'm watching last night's Connect With Mark Kelly. In this thread I think that MTR's expressions were mentioned. On the show, again from yesterday, a reporter mentions that compared to last week MTR is showing much less emotion. I wonder if his lawyer (as opposed to the judge) spoke to him about that?

I wish I could get a transcript of the show...

 

[crazyladi]

This is just the beginning. I am sure there will be character references from both sides including ex girlfriends and friends. We don't know what other people they are going to call to testify. Jmoo

 

[crazyladi]

Character witnesses is what i meant ��

 

[swedie]

If TLM was so into blood and gore, why did she put a bag over Tori's head? Wouldn't she want to see the results of the bludgeoning? Why not use the knife that was in the car if she was into mutilation and dismemberment? The bag was used, in my opinion, to minimize the blood and gore that would result from the bludgeoning. She testified that she hit Tori with both sides of the hammer, that would break the bag open, IMO. Sorry, I'm not buying her new version. JMO<br>

:moo: I have a sneaking suspicion we will find out while at the murder location, while TLM was over yonder "taking in her surroundings", and MR was done sexually torturing Tori, MR threw Tori to the ground, opened the trunk, took out the garbage bags and hammer, put a garbage bag over Tori's head. Then he called TLM over and handed her the hammer and slyly said to her, something like "come on let's see how tough you really are". I can see him doing this, egging her on, daring her. He had already said according to TLM's claim, "we can't keep her and we can't take her back". She knew just as well as MR why they decided to buy the hammer and garbage bags. Again I bet he put her up to another dare knowing she would do it. Just as MR dared TLM to abduct Tori saying "I knew you were all talk and no action". He knew she was a gangsta wannabe and would follow through on his dares. He was the instigator, master manipulator, mastermind. because he wanted to rape a little girl. Sadly, one younger than Tori. Sick, sick, sick.

All the Crown has to prove is TLM and MR where together and acted together throughout this whole sickening case. I don't think it's going to be hard for them to do. All the other "carp" coming out now will mean very little to the jury once the evidence of them being together comes forward. The videos of MR, his car with TLM in the passenger seat at PetroCan and MR using the ATM is going to be MR's ticket to jail. Of course JMHO.

 

[matou]

Chapter 9: Comments Rafferty made to friends after April 8. "He had some interesting things to say to other people about Terri-Lynne McClintic and about the kidnapping itself," Gowdey said.

I think some of this may be related to some of today's testimony. JMO

 

[matou]

Defence claims McClintic was 'engine' behind Tori Stafford's abduction and murder

Read more: http://www.canada.com/news/Defence+...ction+murder/6342158/story.html#ixzz1ptf7NMaR

 

[swedie]

Proposal? I need to read back a bit.

"Lucky lady"??? :floorlaugh::sick::yesss: uke: :cow:

 

[dilbert]

Interesting analysis of TLM by a forensic psychiatrist on last night's show - click on the video for March 21.

http://www.cbc.ca/connect/video.html

key things;

-possibly a psychopath - what distinguishes a female psychopath is a shallow emotion that can be very dramatic
-TLM cannot distinguish between truth and her lies
-fruitless to try and figure out when she's telling the truth
-admitted to be being involved in a horrible crime, won't be concerned with the -triviality of truth and the oath.
-she says what she needs to say to move on, very much identified with a criminal and deviant mindset
- is it fantasy or is she a legit gang member, in his professional opinion it doesn't matter, it's how a person identifies, if she's a wannabe gang because in many instances gang wannabe's can be that much more dangerous because they have to at some point demonstrate they're bona fides.

On tonight's show (which isn't posted on the website yet) they had a legal expert on that stated that if the jury believe's TLM's testimony that SHE killed Tori, they could find MR guilty of a lesser charge (sex assault and kidnapping only) or also acquit him. He said that anything is possible. Also, I think he said the Crown would have to prove MR acted with a guilty mind in order for the jury to convict him of first degree if he did not physically murder Tori.
All shocking and new information for me since I thought the charges were cut and dry, but since reading about how Cecilia Zhang's murderer had his charges reduced to second degree murder, I guess the expert was right, anything is possible.

 

[matou]

In court, McClintic said that Rafferty, whom she had only met a few months before the killing, was a "manipulative person" who easily convinced her to carry out the crime.

Although the couple was not yet "exclusive," she said, they had spent a lot of time together, including one instance where they visited pawn shops in Woodstock to try on engagement rings.


I'm sure TML never thought a guy would want to marry her. I'm sure he never wanted to. JMO
Read more: http://www.canada.com/news/Defence+...ction+murder/6342158/story.html#ixzz1ptgG0UJZ

 

[matou]

I wonder if the pawn shop owner will be called in to testify that the engagement ring thing is true? JMO

 

[Hello_Kitty]

In court, McClintic said that Rafferty, whom she had only met a few months before the killing, was a "manipulative person" who easily convinced her to carry out the crime.

Although the couple was not yet "exclusive," she said, they had spent a lot of time together, including one instance where they visited pawn shops in Woodstock to try on engagement rings.


I'm sure TML never thought a guy would want to marry her. I'm sure he never wanted to. JMO
Read more: http://www.canada.com/news/Defence+...ction+murder/6342158/story.html#ixzz1ptgG0UJZ

He said that "one day you might be the lucky lady".

 

[matou]

He said that "one day you might be the lucky lady".

Lucky lady. He was lucky a sick girl like her would actually steal a little girl away for him. Maybe he told her it was for the thrill of it and didn't actually tell her about his sexual fantasies. He told her that day: you know I'm going to f her, don't you? "Good things are comming my way." They sure were. JMO

 

[swedie]

I believe Derstine is trying to establish that TLM knew that Tori was TM's child and that she killed her out of revenge for a drug debt, or, when TM said she didn't want to breed her dog with theirs, TLM considered that a snub or diss against her and her mother. (TM testified that CM called her and JG and was quite upset that they didn't want to breed their dogs)
In the letters that TLM wrote she mentioned that she didn't like it when people said things about her family that she considered disrespectful.
The defence has also established that TLM is vengeful and wrote at great length at what she'd do to people that wronged her, she even said she'd hurt innocent people connected to those that wronged her.

TLM targets Tori out of revenge against TM and JG because they didn't want to breed dogs with hers = reasonable doubt

MOO

:what: Wow! Interesting! Bolded above. Do you have a link for TM's testimony Dilbert? I would like to read that further. TIA

 

[nobodyzgirl]

Where is the letter where she is angry at Tara for dissing her? JMO

Where is the letter she was angry at her mother before she assaulted her? JMO

 

[daisy.faithfull]

More from Connect With Mark Kelley...

Mark Werner who developed The Depravity Scale (https://depravityscale.org/depscale/) comments on TLM and her testimony, saying that

"...the idea of a shifting story is not at all unusual, and in a case like this you go as far as the evidence and the facts will take you, and then when you reach the boundary then you recognize that you absolutely can't tell where the truth begins and the lie begins. And to some degree her story changes so much that she can't even tell.

And that's where the emotions come in as well. Many people raise the question of psychopath with her. The type of person that can beQ not only be so callous in a crime like this, but so grandiose in the way that she writes about her criminally deviant behavior and fantasies. Of course not having examined her, that is a conclusion, that is something that a person like me cannot make. But I can tell you this, what distinguishes a female psychopath is a shallow emotion that can be very dramatic.

So as I watch an investigating officer question her in a vey leading way, a very guiding way, to create a mood in which she can comfortably assume the role of a victim, she is certainly smart and canny enough to fall into that and start weeping and adopting a posture that can be completely deprived... It's all a mirage and that is the type of person that we are dealing with."

This guy is cool. Go check out the link about the scale and you participate in a survey.